Narc Mother just hung up on ME. For once I am not calling her back. Come and join the letting hew stew thread to remind me I am not a heartless cow.....

[DrNortherner]

Loads of threads on here about her, worse since Dad died 2 years ago.

Called her tonight, got the cold shoulder, she was just telling me how down she is, how lonley she is, and what terrible dreams she is having, then she moaned for 10 mins about her Mother and her friends, then just giving me one word answers, I pushed to find out what was wrong with her and she broke into floods of hysterical tears.

She said she was so hurt that I haven't called her since Wednesday evening (used to call every day, then every other day, trying to make it less as she is so hard work) She also said I don't visit as much as I used to when dad was alive.

I rationally explained I a busy, and petrol costs alot (she lives 80 miles away and does not drive) Still, she kept on crying and saying how much I am hurting her.

I very firmly, told her that I was pissed off, and it feels like a slap in the face to here this from her. I call her at least 4 times a week and visit her once a month. We only saw her on Sunday FGS.I also firmly reminded her she only calls her Mother once a week. Because I was being firm, she the cried even more asking me why I was being so mean to her, and that she didn't it at the moment. I simply said I was defending myself as you said I don't visit or call you enough. Then the classic narc answer 'I did not say that, you are putting words in my mouth'

Then she said she is upset as my dh is rude to her (he is blunt with her as he has witnessed 13 years of her emotionally blackmailing me and he refuses to let her get away with it, more so since Dad died)

Dh barely visits her and she is so draining, but tonight she said it must be because she lives on a council estate He has no problem with the fact of where she lives, its her behaviour he has an issue with.

Then, she said 'There's no point talking to you when you are like this' and hung up on me......

Normally, I would call her back. This time I AM NOT.

Hi DrN, I've read a few of your threads recently and really feel for you as I too have a flaming narcissist for a mother. This one struck a note with me as my mother has a tendency to hang up on me if I challenge things she says on the telephone. I remember one conversation when I referred to the previous sentence she had said, just a few seconds previously, which she denied saying at all and when I insisted that she had she uttered her favourite phrase "well I don't remember it that way" and put the phone down. It appears that your mother employs the same tactics.

The last time she put the phone down on me was in early spring this year, and I have telephoned once since then - in early May having not spoken to her for 10 weeks. During the whole time I didn't phone she smeared me to everyone about me never calling, who then tried to pressure me into calling her. I used to respond that I had a new-fangled telephone that took incoming calls as well as making outgoing ones. It didn't work and I ended up calling her to wish her luck with something important. Obviously in doing that I was in the wrong as she was too busy/important to deal with me and spent the whole time talking about her and not me. I haven't called since, and won't be calling again after a spiteful email from her saying we need to address my "issues."

Since I have decided not to be in contact with her anymore I feel like a weight has been lifted, and the bleak shadow clouding my opinion of everything and my dealings with everyone has gone. I feel free, and can actually live my life properly now, rather than do it looking over my shoulder for criticism/duty etc. I spent my life being told that "family is the most important thing" but really feel that the only families who have to drive that point home are the ones where abuse takes place - it's a point that wouldn't need making if our mothers behaved appropriately towards us. I now have the chance to look after my family - my DH and I - as I should, without the pressure of my mother's expectations and "needs" impacting our lives. In actively making the decision to go no contact the guilt has also lifted. For the first time in my 32 years.

I am telling you this as when it was suggested to me around 6 weeks ago that I might consider going no contact I was aghast at the thought - I couldn't abandon my mother as family is so important.... It's not, being treated properly by people who truly love you, and don't dangle their "love" in front of you to be earned/revoked according to the rules of their game, is so important. I am sad that I have to lose contact with my Darling Daddy in walking away from my mother but I realised that he CHOOSES to be with her and actually allows her to behave the way she does - he's sadly not just a victim here, he is the person who stands beside a schoolyard bully and doesn't say anything. That makes me sad.

Sorry for the essay - I thought seeing someone else's journey might help you. If it doesn't, please feel free to disregard all of this.

cremeggs your post is inspirational. Hope you don't mind but have pasted it into a word document to be kept with other food for thought re going no contact.

I really wish there was a support group for those with narc mothers and/or people who've gone no contact.

cremeggs thanks for your post. I can hear in your words what a relief it is for you to not have her in your life, I admire you for that. Your line about not abandoning family being the most important thing, then the realisation that having people who love you is more important has really struck a chord with me. I'm not there yet, but I might be one day.

Sorry your Dad is unable to stand up to her. That was my fear too

Thanks for sharing your story.

If find it odd you've never gone more than a week without speaking to your mum. I only phoned mine occasionally when I went to uni at 18, no mobiles then and the phone in the block of flats was too busy plus I was young and thoughtless.
I also lived abroad for a year and then mainly sent letters as again no mobiles and international calls very expensive.
I think you're right that people with dysfunctional families have the "families are the most important thing" "my children are my life" etc drummed into them more than happy ones. My parents rarely made me feel guilty about anything and were happy I was off exploring life.
I'm divorced and my son often won't contact me for 2-3 week if with his dad over the holidays, he's the same about his dad when with me. Neither of us try and guilt trip him. He knows we'll still love him when he sees us again and nothing will have changed.
I think some of the only talking about yourself thing is an old person thing. Alot of older people become much more insular, self absorbed and hypochondriacal. When you're young you know talking about your aches and pains is boring to other people, at some point in life people seem to forget that.

mycatthinksshesatiger - glad to be of help. It's early days for me at the moment, and has been a bit of a rollercoaster but no contact seems to be a good decision for me so far.

DrN - Don't fret about not being there, it took me a while of toing and froing before I got completely fed up and decided there was no way for us to have any relationship in the future. If that's not the right course for you then that is nothing to be ashamed/worried about as you need to do what's right for you. Which I'd imagine is something you've never done when dealing with your mother. You will eventually find a path that works for you, and seeing a counsellor will no doubt help you enormously with that (it did with me).

2rebecca - you're trying to apply normal behaviour patterns to a narcissist, which simply doesn't work. If DrN's mother is like mine any deviation from her rules/plan/schedule is met with histrionics, silent treatment, complaint etc and it's incredibly stressful to deal with. My mother said on no less than 6 occasions that she wouldn't come to mine & DH's wedding over things as trivial as the shape of the top table - this is the narcissistic rage that is all consuming and exhausting to deal with. Children of narcissists tend to learn to do as is demanded of them as the consequences are impossible to deal with, not to mention very unpleasant. The talking about themselves things is more than being self absorbed, everything has to be about them (and I mean everything) as they are the centre of their known universe. If you challenge them or ask them to stop moaning etc then you are again met with histrionics and (in my case) god awful smear campaigns. Imagine trying to reason with a toddler - that is what it is like for those of us with narcissistic mothers, though the terrible twos don't end for us.

Chin up, DrN, she only has the power to make you feel guilty whilst you let her. If you can incorporate a way of managing her in your life without letting her get to you that might be an answer for you - and you'll be a stronger woman than I am! PM if you need to chat.

I feel that if these narcissistic people are pandered to then they will continue to display this bad behaviour. You don't teach toddlers to behave in a socialised fashion by giving in to their tantrums and I see no reason to do this with adults.
If an adult chooses not to go to another adults wedding that is their choice and maybe a "that's a shame mum but you do what you think is best" rather than pandering to her may help.
Why not feed back to them that they only want to talk about themselves and seem self obsessed?
I wouldn't have the time or patience for this sort of relative.
If other family members know what these women are like then they won't be able to do a smear campaign as the people close to me whose opinions matter are unlikely to not listen to my side of the story and I don't care about the opinions of people I barely know.
It must be possible to train these women out of their disfunctional behaviour, after all the fact that mainly women behave like this suggests it is a learned behaviour, and can be unlearned if they realise being obnoxious doesn't get them where they want and people start telling them they aren't getting what they want because they are being obnoxious.

I think you're looking at this with the eyes of an adult who has been brought up by functional parents! When you've been conditioned since childhood and cast in a role since childhood it's often not possible to even see how bad the behaviour is. I responded to my mother exactly how you suggested on each of the times she threw her toys out of the pram re the wedding, and each time she went into an epic sulk and actively spoiled the process of planning a wedding for us. I backed down each time because my father asked me to, and had I not my mother would have rewritten history so that in her version of things she would have been excluded from everything.

If you do point out that they're self obsessed they tend to rage or lie - deny that they are. It's very wearing and the lies that they constantly weave to protect their image (self image or to others) can make you question whether you're right or not. The smear campaigns are done very subtly, and if you have been smeared since childhood people will believe their words. Often other family members don't know what they're like, as they treat different people in very different ways - if you're the scapegoat you can do nothing right and will always be criticised, if you're a golden child the sun shines out of your behind. I spent many years challenging her behaviour and it just got worse and worse, and she would never accept responsibility for any action or disagreement - so I walked away. I disagree entirely that this behaviour can be unlearned, it's ingrained and as such can be managed by some people but certainly can't be changed. Believe me, I tried!

2rebecca - as cremeeggsbenedicts said, you are not seeing this through the eyes of someone who has years of experience of dealing with this sort of behaviour from a prominent person in their lives. It would be fantastic to think that their behaviour could be unlearned. The crucial flaw to that plan is that for someone to unlearn a behaviour, they have to recognise it as a bad behaviour, realise that it is damaging and unpleasant to those around them that it affects, and then have the genuine desire to want to change. Narcissistic people simply don't have that degree of self-realisation.

I only tend to talk about by mother with people I know who have similar problems with their mothers. That is because I know that other people just don't understand - I know that because in the past I have tried it. It actually makes things worse to talk about it with someone who says either 'oh, it can't be that bad', or 'well, I wouldn't put up with it'. Whereas, to discuss it with someone who does understand is good and can relieve the tension a little - someone who knows how difficult it can be to choose greetings cards, or who understands that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you know it is time to make contact.

Dr N - how are you today?.

2Rebecca - I think you mean well but "normal" methods for dealing with narcissisitic relations just do not work. Narcissists are deeply dysfunctional beings. Children, now adults, of narcissistic parents have had years of "training" and they carry their own FOG - fear, obligation and guilt around with them.

In my case the way forward has been to have as little contact with both my NPD ILs as humanely possible (I will not visit them alone for instance). My BIL is a depressed narcissist who blames the world for his problems, he chose thankfully to cut us off:).

It is impossible to overemphasise their complete lack of empathy as well.
They are also very crappy gift givers!.

There is debate as to whether narcissists are born or made; in my FILs case in particular his own dysfunctional family certainly played a role.

DrNortherner - been reading this thread and you're being given great advice. My grandmother displayed a lot of this behavour towards my mother. My mother never cut contact (tending to avoid her by using the rest of the family as a shield) and never sought help. That relationship certainly impacted on my mother's mental heath, her marriage, etc. Not much fun for me and my siblings either. I remember as a child wondering why we had to visit my garndparents if it only made my mother angry and upset (she could never say anything to my grandmother but really lost it afterwards).

You should definitely see a counsellor. I don't know anything about Relate's family counselling but I do have experience of CBT counselling and know that if you see a CBT therapist s/he will help you understand the effects of your mother's behaviour on you, help you see the patterns and how they impact all areas of your life (some which might surprise you -at work, for instance)and help you find a way forward that is all about YOU and YOUR health and well-being.

If you don't seek help and end this pattern of behaviour it less likely to change. I understand your comment that you think about what if your mother had died not your father- it's not a terrible thought at all. But when your mum does eventually die the problems may not vanish. My grandmother died and I thought that my mother would be released but she isn't. She still feels guilty, still has all the same unresolved issues (a mother who didn't seem to love her, wanted to make her unhappy, etc.). I have suggested that she gets therapy but she won't (it was her mother's problem, not hers, why should she be the one to get help...!). She can't break out of it even now. It sounds like your relationship is toxic - a good counsellor will help you find a way through this, which might mean no contact but might not. Good luck.

Dr N we have been on threads before. Everyone has put it much better than I could. Thinking of you.

I keep thinking back to my own experiences with my parents and remembering more and more that I had obviously put to the back of my mind somewhere. In Scotland you used to "show your gifts" to the ladies invited to your wedding (I think this custom has died out now). Usually the Sunday prior. Of course I had to have this, so my mother could make a big deal out of it. You are supposed to provide afternoon tea along with it. My mother made the cakes using greens packet mixes. You can imagine what they looked like, I was horrified. Thankfully my auntie turned up with boxes and boxes of homemade cakes and binned all the greens disasters.

Morning All. I'm OK. Remaining stronga and not planning on calling her today.

2rebecca, thanks for your input, however, it is not as black and white as you may think. Plus, my Mother is not old, she is only 62. She just sounds and acts like someone much older. My MIL is a few years older than my Mum and runs rings round her.

The first time my dh met my Mother she spent the whole afternoon talking about the lastest feud with her sisters, teling him how awful they were being to her and how upset she was. He beleived her. He then saw over the years what she was like. He was teh only one who didn't walk on egshells aruond her. He questioned her. He pulld her up on stuff. When he gave her a cup of tea and she didn't say thanks (normal response to dad and I) he would loudly say 'THANKS is teh word you are looking for' Then she would look crushed. how dare he talk to her like that. He was being mean according to her. I would go mad with him for upsetting her. It caused no end of problems.

When I challenge her about this behaviour she denies it. Says it never happenned. How dare I say that about her. Do I now how much I have upset her? She can literally say something in a conversation, I contest it, and she denies she said it. In the same conversation! I get blamed for putting words in her mouth.

I am now accepting she is incapable of ever changing. I have no energy for an arguement with her. I am simply going to call her less, and visit once a month, but when I visit we will do something I enjoy, like a walk on the beach.

I am giving serious thought to telling her we are spending Christmas alone, as a family. I need more time on taht one though.

Thanks all for your input. It helps, it really does.

Hi DrN

I feel for you, I really do. I had a narc-antisocial father, who died 15 years ago thank god, and a narc mother. Then I married into a family of nasty narcs.

The only way in my experience, to get these 'people' to show you any respect is to get them scared of you.

My childhood experiences are of family feuds, my mother deliberately winding up her brothers and sisters, and my father showing his charming face to others, whilst carrying out a reign of terror at home. My cousins all labelled my sibling and me as snobs, when in fact we were too terrified to open our mouths. For myself, I just shut down, into a none-person, which I still do actually, at over 50 years of age, when I have to see my sibling and my mother.

My mother did something so dreadful a few years ago involving my daughter that I just went mad at her, and she was so shocked that she has behaved herself as much as she can since then. My sister I see as little as possible, as breathing in the wrong fashion in her presence can set off a massive tantrum.

I have found that treating them as though they are two years old is the correct stance. And limiting contact. My mother is very very elderly now, and I have decided that I will see her now when I feel like it, and try always to take one of my children with me when I do visit. If they can't come, then I take her out somewhere so that we can have a normal conversation about whatever it is we are doing.

She has totally rewritten history, and tells massive lies to get herself out of situations she has got herself into. She bitches about everyone, then moans she has no friends, and 'goes for days without talking to anyone'. Well that's her choice.

The thing is that narcs are actually incapable of instigating anything, be it calling you or organising anything. My ex-H was like this. He never organised ANYTHING. He moaned that he never saw his (few) friends very often, and when I said 'well you call them then' he looked at me as though I was mad.

My mother and sister have behaved themselves a bit more since I threw them out of my house a few years ago on my daughter's birthday. I had taken their crap for my whole life and said nothing, and then they started on her and I just saw red. My ex-H is terrified of me now since I went through gruelling court appearances after I left, and won. He showed his true narc face in court, such is his arrogance, but the judge wasn't fooled, and hit him hard where it hurt him most...in his very long pockets.

I have also had psychotherapy for two years, and that helps!!

Sorry this is so long, but there is a way out of this. They will never never change, and you will never have the mother you crave. But that's just the way it is. you are very very lucky to have a DH who sees it like it is.

If you get some decent therapy, and just live your life, the FOG will lift. The way your mother behaves is HER CHOICE. And you reap what you sow.

xxxx

DrNo - your DH with the tea just reminds me of the way that my mother visits and sits in an armchair and doesn't move, even though she is perfectly capable of making herself a cup of tea! the worst example was when DD was about 5-6 weeks old, crying a LOT, DP and I were exhausted and really not keen for a needy visitor. She never even offered to make tea, or cook us a meal, or to run the hoover round. She is in her 70s, but obviously can do these things for herself at home.

Every conversation with her at some point includes the phrase, 'well, if you were here for long enough...' you could paint the hall/ tidy the attic/ put that picture on the wall etc etc etc...

Oh yes driving, I get the 'next time you come can you read those letters/look at the strimmer/change a lightbulb for me'

She constatnly tells me how wonderful her 'friends' daughter is to her Mum as she visits her every day. 'xxx is so lucky to ahve a daughter like that'

When she comes to my house, she does ocassionally now make the odd cup of tea, but only under duress. Her usual procedure is to arrive (no word of thanks for picking her up) and leave her suitcase and coat at teh bottom of the stairs for someone to take to her room. She then sits and watches TV, moving when we call her for a meal, them she gets up and leaves the table.

GettingaWarmGrip - you are so right about her not being able to organsie anything. If I am ever unable to collect her and she needs to get teh train/coach I have to organise the tickets and pay for them . Her toilet broke recently and she involved her sister and 2 neighbours into calling plumbers and sorting it out, if her Digibox goes down she hets the woman from next door to come and fix it, despite being told time and time again how to do it herself. Once the woman from next door is in the house my Mum more often than not 'brakes down' in front of her......

My Mother asked me to cut her toenails for her, because Dad used to do it, she asked me to wrap her Christmas presents because Dad used to do it, when at ours if we are gping out she asks if she will ned her coat and her purse. Once, we were going top visit my friend and my Mother actually asked me if she would need her shoes Despite having theb same kettle for years, each time she says she can't use it as it is different to hers. She can't use our hoover as mine is an upright and hers is a cylinder. Once, when I has so much to do, I actually asked her if she could walk the dog for me. She said yes, but made a drama about 'how do I out his lead on' and 'how do I let him off', 'where shalli take him' and 'what should I do if he poos?' I can so see why Dad did everything as it is just easier to do it yourself.

Also, as women of a certain age do she has black hairs sprouting on her chin. She asked me to sort them out. After plucking her chin hairs for a while I thought FGS, she is capable of doing this herself. I bought her a pair of tweezers. Guess what? Rather than do it herself she seems happy having long balck hairs on her chin......

DrN...my grandad ran round after my narc granny literally until the day he died.
He never stood up to her, no one in the family stood up to her, they were scared or they were her favourites so could pick on everyone else like she did, and the victims were all scared so she got away with it.

She was the centre of the universe and we were all her slaves, that is how she saw us, slaves to her will. My mum did stand up to her a couple of times and if granay could have shot my mum, I swear she would have done. She was like a puff adder spitting poison, yet to the neighbours she was the perfect wife and mother. And she did the "I can't do it" routine and always sat in a chair while other ran round after her. It creates such an unhappy family dynamic, yet we all had to visit and pay homage (there was no love) regularly.

Be strong and don't let yourself fall back into those childhood patterns. You are not 4, you have children of your own, and you'd never do to them what she did to you, that is the terrible person she is. When you see the cousellor do discuss why your dad never stood up to your mum, but understand narcs specialise in locating and training people NOT to stand up to them, like a bully hones in on a victim who won't fight back

I was rarely off a ladder when I visited my grandmother. Over the years there were a lot of folk roped in to do stuff (not that we knew about them at the time - cos noone helped at all of course). I never had such a bad relationship with her - I didn't see her much yet always felt very guilty. A counsellor will help you become empowered. It will be good to see how she modifies her behaviour (and she will) when you change your patterns of behaviour. Draw a line under this, under your past and take control. You recognise what she is doing, so that is great. My m other doesn't have your insight and won't listen to anyone else about this.

I too have a mother who is a Narc. I put up with her criticism and lies for 27 years of my life before I decided enough was enough. I cut her out of my life. This has been the best decision I have ever made in my life. THE BEST. It was not an easy decision and I gave it a lot of thought. It has now been 10 years since I had any contact with this woman. I will never have contact with her again ever.

My advice to you is don't phone her. Why should you?

Don't dwell on the past as you can't change it. Look to the future and live the life you want and wish to have. You have control over the future.

This is your life, no one else's.

Oh, that wellworn line of "Mrs X is so lucky to have a daughter who comes to see her/looks after her/rings her every day/takes her out". And the other wellworn lines, applied to whomever is her 'surrogate' daughter of the moment (she's always had someone of around my age to stick on a pedestal and claim how wonderful they are in comparison to me) of "She's so good to her mother, takes her on holiday and looks after her".

How annoying....

A way of making light of all her dramas might be to play NarcMother Bingo (TM cremeeggs), the more narcissistic the comment, the more points you can score. Reading other people's posts about things their mothers say has made me giggle a little as I've heard it all from mine in the past. Or you could come up with some ridiculous/unexpected responses to her comments. My FIL has a narc sister (they're bloody everywhere) who he agrees with all the time she moans in an "I know, isn't it terrible" way which completely takes the wind out of her sails. Making fun out of her madness might be a way to help deal with it.

FWIW, I still think you're playing the dutiful daughter a bit too much with the weekly phonecalls/monthly visits. If you can be happy with that, then great, but if you end up dreading whichever evening you're due to phone (and woe betide you be a second late in doing so) then you will need to find another management technique.

You know my Dad actually described me as a 'wonderful, dutiful' daughter in his speech on my wedding day.

Oh yes, the comments about x being such a good daughter to y. Mine also portrays that she comes to visit her grandchildren and then sits reading Take A Break or Deal or no Deal. If she asks for anything you have to have it there and then, doesn't matter what you are doing, if she say just a minute you are being unreasonable. My dad fetches and carries like a little lapdog.

you say not she say.

She also just wanders into my bedroom without knocking first when she stays. Last time I was naked and just about to jump in the shower.