Narc Mother just hung up on ME. For once I am not calling her back. Come and join the letting hew stew thread to remind me I am not a heartless cow.....

[DrNortherner]

Loads of threads on here about her, worse since Dad died 2 years ago.

Called her tonight, got the cold shoulder, she was just telling me how down she is, how lonley she is, and what terrible dreams she is having, then she moaned for 10 mins about her Mother and her friends, then just giving me one word answers, I pushed to find out what was wrong with her and she broke into floods of hysterical tears.

She said she was so hurt that I haven't called her since Wednesday evening (used to call every day, then every other day, trying to make it less as she is so hard work) She also said I don't visit as much as I used to when dad was alive.

I rationally explained I a busy, and petrol costs alot (she lives 80 miles away and does not drive) Still, she kept on crying and saying how much I am hurting her.

I very firmly, told her that I was pissed off, and it feels like a slap in the face to here this from her. I call her at least 4 times a week and visit her once a month. We only saw her on Sunday FGS.I also firmly reminded her she only calls her Mother once a week. Because I was being firm, she the cried even more asking me why I was being so mean to her, and that she didn't it at the moment. I simply said I was defending myself as you said I don't visit or call you enough. Then the classic narc answer 'I did not say that, you are putting words in my mouth'

Then she said she is upset as my dh is rude to her (he is blunt with her as he has witnessed 13 years of her emotionally blackmailing me and he refuses to let her get away with it, more so since Dad died)

Dh barely visits her and she is so draining, but tonight she said it must be because she lives on a council estate He has no problem with the fact of where she lives, its her behaviour he has an issue with.

Then, she said 'There's no point talking to you when you are like this' and hung up on me......

Normally, I would call her back. This time I AM NOT.

[2rebecca]

If you had hung up on her then I would phone back, but probably a different day when you had calmed down. If she hung up on you then if she wishes to resume talking to you it's up to her to phone back and apologise for rudely putting the phone down. She broke off the conversation, it's up to her to resume it.
It sounds as though your phone calls go on too long though. In future I'd keep them shorter and change the subject, find an excuse to go if she starts moaning at you and tel her if she's going to just moan about how awful you are there is no point talking to her as she doesn't seem to like you much.
This time it is definitely her turn to phone you though.
I've never phoned back someone who put the phone down on me.

[DrNortherner]

TeachMySelfBalance Your words make a lot of sense. I still can not bring myself to think she doesn't love me. She has always told me she loves me. She is the smothering kind. "If I lose you I have nothing" type thing. She used to cry if I didn't call her every day. When I was a teenager she would cry as I started developing a social life and going out with friends/boyfriends etc saying that I didn't need her anymore. She went through my drawers and fuond my pill, she read my diaries. In fact, wrinting this down I can see that she saw no line between me and her. But to outsiders, she was the perfect Mother. Always there for me, telling anyone who would listen how proud she was of me and that I was a credit to her.

She genuinley thinks that I would not treat her like this if dad was alive, and therefore it is me who is in the wrong not her.

Since Dad died in 2009 Mum has been to ours for CHristmas, and quite frankly ruined it with her behaviour. As I am an only child I have too much guilt to not invite her, as where would she go? I guess maybe one of hers sisters might invite her, but only if I make it clear she is not invited to ours. Then I look like teh bad guy, but I shouldn't acre about that should I?.....dh does not want her at CHristmas, he says we should visit on boxing day for a couple of hours then come home. But then I worry about food and stuff as she never cooks/prepares a meal for us, she always wants to eat out and boxing day will be expensive. In fact, dh has been married to me for 13 years and has never eaten a meal cooked my my Mother.....

[HattiFattner]

but I shouldn't care about that should I?

Bingo! You shouldnt care, but you do. STop for a minute and think about whats likely to happen....she will moan at her equally narc friend (and she will be winning on the grief stakes with this one) and she may wail and gnash her teeth about it, but she's going to do that anyway. Let her get on with it. At some point in your life, you have to put your family first - thats you and your DH and your kids. YOu also have to accept that you will never have the hollywood relationship with your mum that you wish you had.

I have pretty much cut contact with my mother - I send her an email a couple of times a year with photos of the kids and a brief update on whats going on in their lives, and I have a skype account that she knows the details of. Yet her response is to moan to everyone that I never call and how cruel I am, and she will respond to every email with a single line line that will include "please call me some time" ...and yet she is entirly capable of calling me. Her excuse used to be the cost (international) but now we have skype, the cost is nil. But still I am expected to call her. Because clearly its cheaper for me to call than for her to call.

I dont.

I dont want to because every call degenerates into her telling me about her illnesses.

"Yes, Ive been ill with a kidney stone" "Ooooh kidney stones, your grandfather had them, i hear they're relly painful. Did I tell you the doctor has me on more antibiotics for xxxxxxxxx.....they make me feel so ill...and Im on more painkillers for my arthritis...and my hips been giving me gyp....and and and and."

Not so much listening as waiting for her chance to talk. So every call eventually moves to illnesses so she can tell me all about hers. So "and hows DS1 - how is his asthma? Did I tell you Ive had a nasty chest infection...I was on antibiotics for weeks and i couldnt sleep, I felt so ill and and and and"

Draining.

I think you have started to wean yourself from your mother, now just continue with that. And Id end any future calls with "I'll speak to you next SUnday (4 or 5 days time).

[DrNortherner]

I am already starting to think about calling her tonight.....I don't want to crack. I just know it will be a nightmare converastion, and it will be worse the longer I leave it.

HattiFattner your conversations with your Mum sound teh same as mine. First I have to get myself in the right frame of mind to call her, and out on my sunny, positove voice, each time she moans I try to pull the conversation round to something else, but she manages to get back to moaning. When I do talk about me, or ds she murmers mmmm, mmmm, mmm to indicate she heard me but really she is waiting to talk again. But then when I remind her I am busy. She says 'You don't have to tell me you have a family and a job, I know you do' then I get so frustrated as we go roumd in circles, she accsues me of putting words in her mouth, even though she says the bloody words, then crumbles and weeps and I get accused of being rude/not caring etc. We go round and round in circles.

I can't help but think how different life would be if she had died and Dad was still here

And that is a really awful thing to say.

[mycatthinksshesatiger]

DrN it's not an awful thing to say because it is genuine how you feel, and you are being true to yourself in acknowledging those feelings - something you are never able to do in your relationship with your mum.

There's a lot of great insights and wisdom on this thread from lots of people with similar mothers, but at the end of the day only you know how you'd like to deal with her and where you go from here.

I can see why you're contemplating phoning as a damage-limitation exercise. I do that all the time.

I cannot recommend counselling strongly enough. It may take a long time but eventually you will find "you" , possibly for the first time, and will comes to terms with the huge loss associated with having a narc mother, and also begin to define ways forward.

[DrNortherner]

Dh's step mum called me last night, she is a lovely lady and we get on well. It was Fathers Day, she knew I would be sad, and to hear a Mum, in a caring way say 'how are YOU feeling darling' was wonderful. I cried, I talked and she listened. That's how it should be isn't it?

MN has been a real eye opener and a real support. I had no idea there was a name for people like her before MN.

[2rebecca]

It doesn't have to be a nightmare conversation. How long you talk to your mum for and whether or not the conversation is circular is as much up to you as her.
You can also say to her "Mum I don't like the way I always feel you are moaning at me during our phonecalls, I'm happy to chat but I don't just want you to moan at me as that isn't good for either of us and makes me dread our phone calls as they aren't pleasant experiences". Suggest she sees her GP if she starts moaning about symptoms. If you are a doctor I'm surprised you aren't used to dealing with moany people and making them decide what they are going to do about their unhappiness rather than just moan to you about it. Maybe tell her that although you are a doctor you aren't her doctor and change the subject.
It generally sounds as though you are passive on the phone and let her run rings around you.
Why are you so desperate to phone her? It sounds as though there is maybe a mutual dependency here if you aren't enjoying the break.
Stop obsessing about her.

[HerHissyness]

DrN, this year, could you go and do Christmas with your ILs?

Or better, save up and book a holiday overseas?

Please make a break!

MN rocks, for a nest of vipers, we're not a bad bunch all told are we?

[CoffeeIsMyFriend]

NO! Do NOT call her. You need to look after your own mental health.

No matter what you do your mum will guilt you. For not calling her back instantly, for waiting a day... you see you cant win.
Why not say to your Mum now - this Christmas we are doing xxxx with xxxx so just wanted to give you plenty of time to organise yourself with sister(s) / her Mother.

Please please contact MIND. x

[DrNortherner]

2rebecca - I am not a Dr! Just a silly MN name relating to a thread yaers ago where some folk believed you got more respect if you were a DR and used it on your title.....I am not dependant on her at all. Am ver independant and self sufficient actually, and have been from a young age. Had to be, as I have always being resposnible for sorting out her emotions, her problems, deaing with paperwork etc etc. It might be hard for you to understand, but I have had 34 years of ingrained guilt that I am responsible for her and I am all she has. It is hard to overcome that.

[Playdohinthewashingmachine]

DON'T CALL! Shall I say that again? DON'T CALL!

She has a phone, she knows your number. She is an adult. You are not responsible for her happiness. If she is crying it is not your fault.

You know, I wouldn't give my toddler some chocolate just before dinnertime the other day, so he lay down on the floor and screamed. I did not feel bad that he was crying. I stepped around him and made dinner. If I'd sat down next to him and said "don't cry, I hate seeing you crying, please stop, what can I do to make you feel better?" he'd have yelled and stamped for a lot longer, and I'd probably have ended up giving him chocolate for dinner.

Your mother is choosing to spend her night crying and sleepless, if indeed that is true. It is her choice. You are not making her cry. She doesn't have to be this way. She has 'friends' and relatives that she could choose to be nice to and spend time with. She could choose to be nice to you and your dh, too.

I tried telling that to my mother - "if you showed any interest at all in any member of my family, we'd visit more often, if you made an effort to be pleasant to us we'd come because we want to, and you'd see a lot more of us". Her response was to tell us that my dad wasn't pleased with me saying that, and therefore they were cancelling their planned visit. Trying to punish us. Cue loud cheering in the Playdoh household!

Backing off is really the best thing. Copy that nice Auntie, and step away. Go do some nice stuff for you. Look at how lovely your relationship with your children is, and do some nice things with them, the kind of thing your mother wouldn't do for you. Look at how they love you!

And as for Christmas - I really think you should put your dh first this year. You will not be neglecting your mother, you will be honouring and caring for the husband you love. And he can be the bad guy to your relatives if you like, I bet he can take it.

Counselling will help. MN is great but telling this to a counsellor will help you get rid of the guilt.

And I echo what someone else said up the thread. If you choose not to call, but to wait for her to call you - be prepared for a sudden health scare that requires you to drop everything and rush over (and give serious consideration to not rushing over!).

[TeachMySelfBalance]

Hi Dr. N,
Sorry to hear you feel unsteady in your resolve.

You wrote:
" First I have to get myself in the right frame of mind to call her, and out on my sunny, positive voice,..."
I did similar with contact with my middle sister. I called it shifting into the Special Middle Sister Gear. However, in reality, I was making myself go literally dormant. Press myself down to get along with her...self induced depression.

That is when my counselor said that it wasn't mentally healthy for me to be around her. That is why a counselor is valuable. A professional. On your team.

And that is a sticky business-recovering from the contact. My MSister would always make plans for a future date-oh, boy! something to look forward to! Hard to detox with more toxicity to face.

Then I learned to say no. That was only a start because she'd be very very persuasive and talk me into changing my mind. So I went round and round with that for years. Then (and it is a brilliant strategy-what Playdough mentioned) I started to use my dh as the reason to say no.

"We can't make plans that far in advance, dh's work schedule isn't set and he may have to travel."

"Dh is allergic to pet dander (maybe you haven't noticed that I haven't had a pet for 20 years!) so we are not renting a holiday cottage for pets when he doesn't live that way at home and certainly isn't going to spend his vacation time and money on a place he wouldn't otherwise live in. And, MSis, I see his point."

"No, MSis, I am not taking you to visit my inlaws. You go everywhere else with us, but I am not taking you there." And that was a Christmas and she reveled in telling me how many of her friends were 'fighting over her' to have her for Christmas. I had no guilt on that one...inlaw dynamic filled that vaccume .

I will come back periodically today for you Dr. N...
Please don't call her. You have made some progress and calling her will put you back to square one.

[DrNortherner]

OK, I am busying myself around the house. I will not call her tonight. It feels good, to not have the cloud of 'I have to call my Mother tonight' hanging over me.

I have called Relate, paid my reg fee and am on a waiting list to see a family councellor.

One step at a time. Thank you all.

[Tattoos29]

DrN,

Can the group include those that have issues with their Father in Laws??? I'm sure my DH and I would jump at the chance of joining that one :)

[CoffeeIsMyFriend]

glad you have decided not to call her tonight.

and well done on calling Relate, see you are taking steps forward for yourself and your family.

I think that playdoh and teachmyself have summed it all up nicely.

Like I have said in previous threads; YOU are NOT responsible for her happiness. If she chooses to cry all night and weeps herself into a state - her choice, totally and utterly her choice. Nothing at all to do with you. She chose to do that to herself, she chose to hang the phone up on you and she chose to behave the way she did/does. You have control now, so dont you call her.

Maybe try some of the things that others have suggested further up the thread.

It works it does and my relationship with my Mother is much better now that I am in control of how I react to her. I decide if we have Christmas together, I decide when we visit and for how long, I do not react to certain 'triggers' any more and I am a much better person for it.

Not saying it is overnight or easy, after 30 odd years of 'conditioning' it takes a while to undo.

[Katisha]

EVery time you get the urge to ring come on MN instead!
I hope the relate people are up on narcs though - it's like trying to explain the unbelievable to people who haven't actually had some experience of it. Find out from the word go whether you have the right sort of counsellor for this, although it's great that you have taken this step.

[TeachMySelfBalance]

See Dr. N?
You've open up to the possibility, and how good it does feel!
Congratulations! Pat yourself on the back.

Don't call her on Tuesday because:
Earlier you wrote:
"I still can not bring myself to think she doesn't love me." Well, Dr.N, do you feel loved by her? She says she loves you. But saying it is easy, like something I call 'lip service'-talk is cheap. But feeling it is where the truth lies, isn't it?

Don't call her on Wednesday because:
Also you wrote that she says this to you:
"If I lose you I have nothing". Sorry, but this does not involve you at all; it is all about her. This is a guilt trip for you-like a trump card. Looking at it objectively, "If I lose , I have nothing." Fill in the blank.
NOTHING ...she refered to you as a thing ...wouldn't a regular person say, "If I lose you, I have no one"?

Don't call her on Thursday because:
Sorry to nit pick, but that sort of choice of words reveals the campaign of dismissiveness to keep you degraded.

You've got the momentum on your side now. Keep it up. I am rooting for you!

[DrNortherner]

Tatoos - the more the merrier, come on in

Katisha - good advice, never thought to check on the skills of the councellor, will do that, thanks.

Teachmyself - your post made me laugh and feel good. I can imagine you jumping up and down with pom poms

I am thinking that she won't call me. So, it will be up to me to call her. Question is how long should I leave it. I am thinking to call her on Sat, then it has been a week. That will be the longest we have ever gone without speaking, ever.

In all other aspects of my life I am a very together, in control person I promise!

A friend at work suggested I call one of my Aunts, or my Gran (she is 84 but very with it) but I don't have the type of relationship where I can call them, never have. Thinking about it, that is because of my Mum. She always told me as a kid they weren't interested in me, I wasn't the favourite etc, but then she would cry and say that it upset her that they treated me like that. I thought it was true. Now I can see it probably wasn't.

What I am struggling with most is why my Dad didn't challenge her? He was a clever, level headed, pragmatic guy, but when it came to her he agreed with whatever she said. I can't understand it.

As an example, I remember my Grans 70th birthday party. It had been organised as a surprise by my Aunties. My Mother, being lazy, was not hugely involved with the organising. According to her they excluded her. As my Gran was due to arrive, the other 5 sisters lined up by the door to greet their Mum as she came in. My Mother remained seated at the back of the room. Gran arrived, kissed her daughters who were by the door, the greeted others who got up to wish her well. My Mum sat there sobbing, and eventually we had to leave early. The reason? My Gran greeted non family members before her, she said that was a kick in the teeth and Gran should have gone to her next.

I was there, as was dh (we weren't married then) and my Dad, and not one of us said a word to her, we just let her believe her mother was rotten to her. Then she would be down for days, sometimes weeks. She will tell anyone who will listen about how badly her family treat her, and it is simply not true.

[Anniegetyourgun]

Maybe your dad was brought up by someone like her; do you know your other gran?

[DrNortherner]

No, never met her, neither did my Mum. My Dad's Mum died when he was only 18. He lost his Dad when he was 2

[Anniegetyourgun]

Oh, poor soul. It seems likely that at some point he had some unhealthy relationship example that led him to accept his marriage as the way things should be. At least you've broken out of the pattern and got a decent life partner, perhaps because your dad showed you what a nice man is like (although not what a healthy marriage is like).

Anyway... calling her on Saturday sounds like a good idea. There's got to be a limit on how loudly she can shout, beyond which it can't get any worse however long you leave it

[drivingmisscrazy]

It's very odd, isn't it? I've often wondered why my dad put up with my mother - it's hard to reconstruct as he died when I was 8, so I wouldn't have had anything but a childish perspective on their relationship.

I think my mother is a more devious narc than yours Dr No - she certainly doesn't do the public histrionics. Mind you, a lot of the other things you say ring a bell - she's never cooked DP a meal until very recently (when we visited her in London - and then she was cross because there was a 2 year old in the house sucking up all the attention!).

Mind you, when DP and I first lived together (about a million years ago now) my mother would not stay with us (danger of contamination from the gays or something ). DP says, not unbitterly, that this was a great set-up and we should have worked harder at alienating her :o The turning everything round to her and her problems is definitely a feature - I'd always put this down to the fact that she has lived alone for many years now and doesn't have anyone to talk to - but it seems that makes no difference. So if I ring and say 'DD has a cough', my mother says 'oh dear, I've got a terrible cough + graphic details'.

The endless presentation of her version of the past as the correct one has been a constant stress between us - not least because I feel that I am entitled to my own memories of my father, even if they might not be entirely accurate. My mother progressively wrote him out of my life (so - and you'll all love this - apparently I look like her, not like him. I do look very like my mother, but also very like my father and this really irritates me). My main problem with this is that my mother has kept a diary for nearly 40 years, which I know to be full of commentary about my failings and misdemeanours (plus a lot of dull stuff about what she had for dinner and what time she went to bed). What do I do with these when she dies? I don't want to read them (although of course she revels in the idea that I will and that I will be 'devastated' - her words - by what is in them). At any point of dispute (which might be what we ate for lunch in 1996 in Killarney) is referred to the great oracle that is the diary. Should I donate them to something (something studying narcissistic mothers, perhaps?)

Mine emailed back eventually 'believe me I do understand there are lots of calls on your time' Nice interpretation is possible; but actually she means 'because you never have time for me'. But life is too short for picking over their every utterance - it makes you turn into what they want as it's all a form of giving them attention.

Sorry! that was very long! And I didn't even start on the Christmas issue...

[DrNortherner]

The diaries sound awful driving. Burn them. Do not read them. Can you ever imagine leaving that legacy for your dd's?

My Mother is more subtle in the put downs than yours. Mine never openly criticised me, in fact she always told me I was pretty, clever, confident etc but then she would often say I was stuck up, ashamed of living on a council estate and of her, and getting ideas above my station.

At least I had my Dad till sdulthood, you sadly lost yours so young. Did she have another relationship after him?

[Katisha]

I think you have to accept that your dad had his faults as well. Nothing like her of course, but most narcs manage to organise the relationship so that they are enabled by their partner. The partner hasn't got the energy to change things and often doesnt actually acknowledge the problem becuase the implications are too vast.

So yes - your dad could have challenged it but he would have had to have left her ultimately becuase as we know, narcs don't change. Perhaps he thought it was better to stay together for your sake. (Not the case in actual fact, but a different generation...)

Most narcs just wear people down, and the enabler wants as stress-free a life as possible so therefore doesn't challenge. And who can blame them. It's not easy to change the way you let a narc affect you.

[drivingmisscrazy]

ah yes, she did: with his brother!! all clandestine and hushed up. They both behaved very badly - this meant that I could not contact my cousins, in effect, who my mother had engineered an argument with many years before. I would liked to have made up with them, actually, but now I feel it's too late and too difficult.

DU promised he would take care of her (and me), but didn't - he was a wealthy man and left everything to his wife and children as I knew he would.