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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

ValentineBombshell: well it went tits up but thank you

999 replies

ValentineBombshell · 10/06/2011 20:36

Hello to anyone who remembers me from, as my name suggests, way back in February. Am a long time MN regular whose H confessed to kissing a colleague at work/an EA.

original thread here

Had to step away from MN for a bit as everything just imploded. Of course he hadn't just kissed her, it was all far more tawdry than that, she'd been giving him blowjobs in carparks.

And now my life reads like a badly scripted soap. Am about to proceed with divorce, distressingly he is still living in the same house as me and the children and he has reached heights (or should that be lows?) of jaw-dropping awfulness.

But I just wanted to come back and say thank you for the wise words that MNers took the time to post, for the support and the tough love, both of value in equal measure. And hopefully back on MN under my usual name xx

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SharkieLeRouge · 15/11/2011 16:43

How horrible for you and your kids. I support the one thing to be glad about is the fact that your little ones know that Don't tell Mummy in fact means I better tell Mummy as soon as possible!

Mathanxiety has it in one with the description of toolexH steaming off into the sunset with bewildered children in tow. He really, really doesn't have a clue does he. Entirely led by his own needs.

I would be pushing for visitation at a contact centre and sessions with family therapist.

SharkieLeRouge · 15/11/2011 16:49

How horrible for you and your kids. I support the one thing to be glad about is the fact that your little ones know that Don't tell Mummy in fact means I better tell Mummy as soon as possible!

Mathanxiety has it in one with the description of toolexH steaming off into the sunset with bewildered children in tow. He really, really doesn't have a clue does he. Entirely led by his own needs.

I would be pushing for visitation at a contact centre and sessions with family therapist.

ValentineBombshell · 15/11/2011 22:31

MA, you are so right about describing it as water torture, the relentless pressure of it is making my personal life knock into my professional life and I hate that. Am also so cross at the money it's costing with the solicitors, I have much better things to spend my time & money on than addressing H's idiocy with no surety of the right outcome.

MA, and anyone else who has been through similar, hope you don't mind but can I ask a couple of personal questions: how do your dcs get on with your exH and his gf now? What's your relationship with them like? Do you think the firm stance you took has paid off?

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mathanxiety · 16/11/2011 16:37

Well, the two oldest do not speak to exH.

Oldest DD was physically attacked by him when she was 16ish. She had spent most of Easter weekend setting up a table and filling in values from a chemistry experiment (old computer didn't run the programmes that would have done this at the touch of a button -- she had to figure out how to set up the table before entering any data, a very laborious process). ExH got the notion into his head that the house needed immediate cleaning up the instant we got back from church on Easter morning and told DD1 that if she didn't get up from the computer immediately and do as he told her he would pull the plug and she would lose all her work. She got between him and the computer, they struggled, and he left the room frothing at the mouth and complaining that he had been hit.... Unknown to me, DD1 had already found plenty of exH's porn related activities on the computer, his profile on hook up sites, and e-mails professing amorous feelings for another man. She has never met the gf but feels that whoever she is she is being used.

A few years later, after DD1 agreed to go to see exH's parents and give up a week of her summer work and pay, as her grandfather was allegedly close to death, exH threatened her when they got back with contempt of court proceedings for being 'rude' to her grandparents. My guess is that she was cool to him as instead of staying with the grandparents exH insisted that he and the DCs go to a resort that had no wi-fi for four days, and DD1 had brought work with her that she absolutely needed to do. So 'rude' to the gps may have really meant 'annoyed at him' -- he does a lot of projecting. What set off the tirade was that she contacted me as they were approaching the flat to ask me to give her a lift to her rented room as she had to be at work at about 7 the next morning and it was about 9:30 at that point, with no sign of dinner, exH sounding out everyone about what sort of pizza they would like to order.

DS doesn't talk to exH either. He is not aware of exH's sexuality issues afaik -- at least he has never talked to me about it if he knows, and frankly I didn't know how to broach the subject with a teenage boy. He did mention one time when we spotted exH out running 'there's dad out in his way-too-tight-white-spandex-running-shorts' with an expression of disgust so I have a feeling he may have an inkling. This was pair of athletic support/bike shorts that exH wore all the time out running; it left absolutely nothing to the imagination.

When exH decided he was going to leave the family he told DS and 2 of the youngest 3 DDs on the car on the way to school, then dumped them on the curb. He came home, entered the house through the back door, yelled at me that he had told the children he was leaving and that he was going to look for somewhere for himself to live, then left through the front door, slamming it in my face when I ran after him. The DCs were all in a state of shock when I got to the school and brought them home, all except DD3 who appeared not to have processed the information at all.

DS has never really thought well of his father after that. He has never found exH's behaviour acceptable, including the gf. When he was 17, he and exH had a row at exH's place over New Years. DS refused to go to an afternoon party at the gf's house and exH took great offence (I don't know what was said by DS), took the girls with him to the party, locking DS in the flat and threatening him with the police and arrest if he left, hiding his jacket and wallet just for good measure. DS counted down the weeks left until he turned 18 when he would have no further obligation to be in the same room as exH ever again. He is hoping to graduate with a degree in psychology.

The youngest 3 DDs resent going to their father's every second weekend and for a summer holiday and especially for half of the Christmas holiday. Youngest DD had been taken to the zoo once when she was about 6, before we had a formal visitation agreement, and when she came home the firs thing she said was 'Daddy's friend was at the zoo' -- not a word about the chimps or even her favourites, the penguins... That made me think it was time to stop him in his tracks and see if I could start him thinking of the DCs and not himself, but alas the leopard doesn't change his spots without quite a struggle.

When we went to mediation, he insisted that he would continue to bring the children to Mass in the church the gf attended and not the parish attached to their school, that he would introduce them all to her, that he had a right to be "surrounded by the people he loved" -- all incredibly self-centered imo and guaranteed to backfire. The mediator got him to agree to wait a year before introducing the children to the beard, and not to have her stay overnight at his place while they were visiting unless they got married.

The DDs are not happy about visitation, find their father really odd and uncommunicative, resent having to disrupt their weekends -- he used to turn down invitations from youngest DD's friends to play but that has improved now. DD2 wanted to get dressed for her Confirmation (age 14) at home with her hair straightener and brushes, her clothes, full length mirror, basket of makeup all handy but exH threw a hissy fit when I asked on her behalf and shot me dirty looks for the entire Confirmation evening. When I talk with them about what exactly they find to resent in the weekends they spend with exH they have all said that he never talks to them, just watches sport on tv and undercooks meals (they come home ravenous). He never asks about their homework if they bring their bags and sometimes youngest DD leaves hers until Sunday evening as a result. They genuinely don't know why he wants them there every second weekend. They have never warmed to the gf, who is a theatrical sort a few years older than exH, and they find it all really, really odd.

PattyPenguin · 16/11/2011 20:32

Just to sympathise with you, VB. As you say, when is he going to stop being a twunt? I have to say I feel for the teenage son, if it was him on the phone, threatening your H. How angry and hurt must he be. I presume that H and OW don't give a stuff whose lives they ruin and what emotional carnage they wreak.

ValentineBombshell · 16/11/2011 23:07

Just wow MA, that's some exH you have there, [understatement] and quite some remarkable children too Smile.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/11/2011 00:29

PP, because dc1 used the word 'boy' I assumed it was the 16/17 yr old son and not the husband, who would be the other obvious candidate if he's about to be forced/manipulated out of the family home. If I'm feeling condemnatory, think this kind of behaviour is part and parcel of OW and most of her family. My father raised the Q about what happens if a physical threat materialises whilst H has the dcs?

But truth be told, I agree with you. OW's son seems to have got a rotten deal all round with his father, mother and now would-be step-father, he's trying to make his family stay together in any way he knows how. H lacks proper empathy and will be impatient if the son hasn't succumbed to the often successful charm offensive/will tell people the son is blackmailing his mother to get what he wants/'yes yes I can see it would be upsetting for him yadda yadda', but still continue down their own selfish path.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/11/2011 00:34

Am seeing solicitor after work tomorrow, ostensibly to talk about the finances (5 hours tonight on the paperwork!) but also now of course H's conduct.

Dc1 was a thorny mix of antagonising dc2, snarly, crying at the drop of a hat and determined to feel sorry for himself tonight. I made the mistake of reading Giles Andreae's 'The Lion Who Wanted to Love' at bed time which dc2 loves, but for overtired/over emotional dc1 it was too much; he was the rejected lion and I was the mean mother lioness who wasn't nice to him and didn't appreciate his fine qualities! He was lent against me saying, "That's just like you that is" Grin and Wine

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mathanxiety · 17/11/2011 15:44

I think having seen my own DS go through all of this that teenage boys are upset by family disturbance like this in a very profound way. Their physical home is very much their turf in a way that it is not for girls, and they have protective feelings for the family unit and for any younger siblings. Thrown into the mix is a bit of flexing of muscles/antagonism towards the father... I always felt that DS was very inclined to be protective towards me and would have got between me and any threat and even though he made merciless fun of his next youngest sister, when a weirdo tried to entice her into his car, DS gave her some great advice about protecting herself.

A boy whose mother is the one breaking up the family home would be very torn between a natural tendency to protectiveness of the home and family and anger that she was ripping his world apart.

blackcurrants · 17/11/2011 16:54

oh, VB, I'm so sad you're having to deal with all this. I hope you have/had a good meeting with the Sol. and there's some forward momentum. Sometimes momentum is the only thing that keeps things going, I find.

More power to you!

ValentineBombshell · 17/11/2011 22:36

Not sure how useful the solicitor was really. She told me what I knew: either speak to H myself, another solicitor's letter, mediation or withdraw contact and H apply to the court for access.

She focused on mediation which I inferred was her preferred approach. Realise I should have gone in knowing what course of action I wanted, so maybe am irked more with myself than her.

Also requested the meeting to get going on the finances, took all the paperwork, forms and sums that took hours of work, expecting to go through them with a fine toothcomb, and instead got the same general principals of asset split and more forms very similar to the ones I've already filled in. Kept thinking, I'm paying for this!

Have had texts from H requesting sleepover for dc1 & 2 tomorrow and he 'thinks' he needs to talk to me although he hasn't so far.

So I have instructed nothing so far with the solicitor and done nothing about the sleepover.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/11/2011 23:01

Whilst writing previous post, H phoned.

Upshot is that he agrees that dcs should be kept away from his situation. No introduction to OW/OW family. No dcs shouldn't have been exposed to threat. Told him he had lied to me when he had said the situation was stable, he said he and the OW 'were great', I said that was immaterial, the important point is, it is safe and settled for the children? No. I said that if he won't agree then it would be mediation, but there was no disagreement.

Told him I wasn't claiming foresight/or told you so, but when we signed the statement of arrangements giving a year/next May as for point of review that date took into account what he has not, which is OW's situation which is volatile. It needs that time to settle down. H has said OW's H physically assaulted her at the weekend when drunk, H has had threats from the son.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/11/2011 23:11

Am still however worried about the dcs as H back to being depressed he says, crying over his situation and thoughts of Christmas without the dcs, missing the kids, seeing things that remind him of them.

The latter might be down to me a teensy bit, having explained on Sunday about his Christmas time with them and then our Christmas here as one big family that he's excluded from. Did take the polite gloves off and bluntly tell him that maybe Christmas with the kids wasn't on his mind when he had his dick in someone's mouth in a carpark (thanks to the MNer who made that pithy point!)

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ValentineBombshell · 17/11/2011 23:17

At the moment he's agreed with every thing I've said.

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mathanxiety · 18/11/2011 02:32

Take your solicitor's hint and go to mediation.

It is time and money well spent and you will end up with an agreement you will have input into (as opposed to the kind of standard stuff you are encountering with the finances -- this can be done to the children too in the courts if you throw yourself on their mercy). The agreement can be quoted to your ex if he starts to try making things up and you will not have to deal with the constant visitation requests.

Even more to the point, the DCs will have a routine that you are both reasonably happy with and able to go along with.

'At the moment' indicates to me you realise this agreement might be a passing thing.

And yes, chickens have a habit of coming home to roost, don't they...

blackcurrants · 18/11/2011 12:57

Did take the polite gloves off and bluntly tell him that maybe Christmas with the kids wasn't on his mind when he had his dick in someone's mouth in a carpark (thanks to the MNer who made that pithy point!)

You're very welcome, VB - glad to be of service. You are bending over backwards to be a reasonable, agreeable divorcing spouse here because you think that's best for the DCs, and in most cases and non-acrimonious split is the very best kind. However, your DH has earned your acrimony. He has treated you and your DCs badly, not just in carparks but SINCE the split, in every possible way. He has shown no thought for their feelings or yours, and he STILL isn't. He's upset about Christmas because HE is upset, not because of how the children might feel.

You're being reasonable for the children - well it hasn't worked out, they have been harmed (by your DH) in this 'reasonable' period. Now I think you might have to be 'unreasonable' for the children. Mediation seems like the way to go. I don't know, your sol may just be after more money, but it strikes me she's been pretty good so far, and has probably seen a lot of situations like yours. I don't think your DH will do what you want him to do and what's best for your kids. I think he'll continue to do what HE wants to do, because that's what he's done for this whole thread, which is months-old. So I think you have to get someone make him do the right thing. No internal impulse is stronger than his selfishness. Whatever you have that makes you put the DC first, he just doesn't have it.

I'm not trying to demonise him, I want you to see him very clearly at this stage in his life. Whatever you want him to do, whatever you think, surely he will do for the DCs - he won't. He will do what he wants, unless he is made to do otherwise. This is not me projecting from my past, I have been fortunate not to experience this. This is me reading what he has done so far, and not seeing a man who has changed at all over all these months. Why would he change now? He won't. I don't think he can. He doesn't have the selfless impulse that you have, and he is not interested in becoming a better person.

Blackduck · 18/11/2011 13:55

Blackcurrents - harsh, but fair. I agree with your summary. I said (way up thread) it is all Me, Me, Me with him and it still is. He is depressed adn sad at the thought of Christmas on his own, well tough mate, you made your bed. He misses the children, maybe he should have thought about all that sooner. It's all about HIS feelings and not anyone elses. VB you are clearly a lovely kind person and you have given him enough rope....

mathanxiety · 18/11/2011 18:12

I agree with both Blackcurrants' and Blackduck's posts. A third party conducting mediation might be a much needed reality check for him.

ValentineBombshell · 21/11/2011 12:38

Have emailed the solicitor to proceed with mediation.

Your eloquent post really struck a powerful chord, blackcurrants, as did the subsequent posts. And sorry balckcurrants for not crediting you before!

Initially after H promising he would do better I felt much reassured, big wave of relief, but reading this made me realise more fool me.

And then the weekend just confirmed it for me - not that it was needed. H had the older two for a planned sleepover with assurances he'd try to do so much better. Dcs complained they all got up too late to have breakfast before going to music/drama; H returned them late/no phone call as he lost track of time so the dinner I cooked for them congealed (he returns them early so he doesn't have to cook); dc1 complained he was getting "fed up with Daddy" as they had to stand outside the shop OW works in 3 times on Saturday; on Sunday H arrived late to take dc1 to rugby but still spent 10mins with dc1 in the car texting OW before driving away and dc1 announced at 8am this morning that he hadn't done his Maths h/w with Daddy.

So this is him at his best...

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ValentineBombshell · 21/11/2011 12:40

H must have sixth sense that am posting, as just had a text to say can he see dc3 and me?

It's the middle of the day, he should be at work.

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ValentineBombshell · 21/11/2011 12:57

He is not at work as he had "some depression in the last week. Broke down at work Thurs"

Told him it's not easy being the cause of so much misery. Suggested he book in to see his counsellor and confide in his nearest and dearest.

(i.e. not here)

Then had a reply to say "You are right of course I have caused a lot of misery. I deeply regret this. Did I ever make the right decision? Did I ever make the right decision historically? It's a shame that I cannot see my son and speak to my ex-wife whilst visiting XX doctor's as you suggest.

Replied "dc3 is asleep, do not want the other two upset by your upset (in case he rocks up after school) and I'm an exwife for a very good reason!"

I am getting other replies but am ignoring them, as it was a mistake to engage in the first place.

On a more positive note, I learnt to inflate my tyres this week (FIL bought me a tyre compressor as an early Xmas present!), I have a slow puncture and a tyre just within legal limits so have sorted their replacement for tomorrow.

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DharmaBumpkin · 21/11/2011 13:33

God, all the eyeroll smilies in the world wouldn't be enough would they! Totally wanting to come around and use you as a convenient whinge receptacle tell you how hard his life is... Poor wee man... NOT!

Well done on deflecting the woe is me rant onto someone else. And definitely well done on going to mediation, he seems totally incapable of understanding what putting the DC's first actually entails Angry

Fenella1212 · 21/11/2011 13:44

VB, one of the (many) things that astound me about your ex is that he is a teacher, and deals with difficult pupils in particular. How on earth does he do this successfully without having learned a) that children need to be put first in a family and b) that poor parenting can seriously fuck a child up? Extraordinary!

mathanxiety · 21/11/2011 15:01

This is not meant as any sort of criticism of teachers in general but I can see a teacher being the 'child among men, man among children' sort of person, and getting away with having some sort of god complex when he is among the students at any rate. Long term, with other adults, I can see it all wearing thin.

Before you get the mediation started, I would take the time to write a long list of what you expect from exH in terms of being a parent to the DCs and a co-parent alongside you. This could include keeping his personal crises private and a commitment to keep attending therapy or whatever MH help he receives. You will need to hammer out a schedule that you both agree to follow so there will be no congealed dinners or children sitting waiting for him to show up. He will need to commit to punctuality for the DCs' activities and all meals and bedtimes. You will of course be bound to the same rules but there will be no issue there afaics.

Try to look ahead to what you want with the OW's involvement, when she and the DCs will meet -- I would insist on this being later rather than sooner and I think there's a chance she will find greener pastures somewhere else anyway. I think you could request that exH keep phone and text contact with the OW to a minimum when he has the children. Obviously, he could spend conceivably spend hours texting back and forth, to the detriment of the relationship with the DCs; the ten minutes spent in the car waiting is evidence of this. I don't think it would be unreasonable to request this. It may be that you could ask for supervised visitation for a few months to train him and in light of the fact that he has been having breakdowns of some sort at work.

Way to stop the dumping on you and congratulations on learning to inflate the tyres. I remember the first time I cleaned out my gutters all by myself and how fab it felt to conquer the ladder.

ValentineBombshell · 21/11/2011 19:07

That's all really good advice, thank you. And thank you in particular MA for the practical steps on how to approach mediation, that is so useful.

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