ValentineBombshell: well it went tits up but thank you

[ValentineBombshell]

Hello to anyone who remembers me from, as my name suggests, way back in February. Am a long time MN regular whose H confessed to kissing a colleague at work/an EA.

original thread here

Had to step away from MN for a bit as everything just imploded. Of course he hadn't just kissed her, it was all far more tawdry than that, she'd been giving him blowjobs in carparks.

And now my life reads like a badly scripted soap. Am about to proceed with divorce, distressingly he is still living in the same house as me and the children and he has reached heights (or should that be lows?) of jaw-dropping awfulness.

But I just wanted to come back and say thank you for the wise words that MNers took the time to post, for the support and the tough love, both of value in equal measure. And hopefully back on MN under my usual name xx

She has had a 'bit of a breakdown' after her father's suicide and wants time on her own

she is cooling

realised he is actually the booby prize, a complete and utter damp squib

I think you have dealt with it well, actually. You have been pretty clear.

I still think you are being too accomodating to his selfish navel-gazing, but you have your reasons.

He doesn't call the shots, you do. That is how it should be.

I suggested similar, that OW was backing off as he wasn't what she bargained for but he wasn't having that, almost defensive of her, so think it could be all back on again.

Realise I gave him too much of my thoughts and time.

Love, you have been doing that all along

As you have also been allowing him to do

it really should stop

oops, this is AF, btw

ValentineBomshell, I hope you don't mind a complete stranger popping in at this point, I've been lurking since the start but had no advice to give so didn't post.

I think you've handled it brilliantly. Yes you've given him your thoughts and time but you had to to get the message across.

Well done. You rock - and he is a total twunt.

@ 'Tis I, AnyFucker in disguise. Yes, you were totally right about that.

Thanks Fenella for your kind words. Guess I had thought this through so much, am just cross he hasn't fallen in with my every suggestion [controlling, moi?]

Have otherwise been getting on with my new life: appealing the stupid tax credits decision, swapping utilities, swapping estate agents, sorting out play dates, old friends been getting in contact...so not all bound up in H and his drama and maybe that was what he senses? Was on the phone when he got back this afternoon with the dcs to a friend checking up on me, and he wanted to know who it was - when together I would have said, now of course, I don't.

LIsten, VB - you might have given him more time than is ideal but as a result you have a very clear picture now of what kind of idiot he is. He doesn't want to be on his own, he isn't sure about OW but he wants to keep you dangling until he makes his mind up (or she makes it up for him by sacking him off). This has established for you how genuine his want to return to you is - not very. You could have wasted time wondering "what if...?" without this conversation - now you don't need to.

He has made his play to see whether the opening is still there for him to return - you have told him it isn't - this is a useful exchange. His unwillingness to accept it is neither here nor there - repeat as necessary until it sinks in.

NOW you can disengage more easily. He has tried his mental breakdown, he has tried telling you he made a mistake - you have rebuffed both these pathetic attempts to keep you interested and hooked in - you're doing great.
Keep it up. :)

He had an 'episode' = he has realised neither of the women he thinks he has safely in his orbit are in fact reliable satellites. You shouldn't worry about the 'episode' because of course it doesn't warrant examination by a MH professional, but there it is, casually mentioned, just to remind you how very fragile he is...

The OW 'had a breakdown' = she is naturally upset at the death of her father and cannot give H 110% of her attention to H all the time right now. This is unthinkable. How best to regain that sense that someone is paying all of her attention to him?

Flowers for you and gifts for the children = the charm high beam, plus flattering wifey that she is a far better catch than the OW and hinting to you that you are about to win the catfight he likely imagines is going on (because you would fight OW tooth and nail for the prize of the H, right?) But sadly, playing with the hearts of the children too. This is reprehensible of him.

'So said goodbye and his last words were 'Maybe we'll talk more on Thursday'
Haven't dealt with this well have I? Just wanted it all out of the way and sorted, how can he possibly misinterpret or not hear what I am saying?'
VB you did everything right. What is happening is that you are being gaslighted -- he is giving you the impression that your words have come out sounding like 'blibbity blibbity blib blib blib'. He heard you and understood you, don't worry.

All of what he is doing right now is spur of the moment stuff, guided only by what he feels at any given time (mainly mighty sorry for himself and unappreciated). His feelings concern only himself. No-one else's interests are of any significance to him at all. Plough ahead with your course.

VB - well done. I think you've coped with a very hard day very well.

I think the word "breakdown" is used too easily by some people. It's like people have a mild cold and they make it into flu. Because of my work, I deal with people who have real breakdowns frequently. I doubt OW is having a breakdown, she's just overwhelmed with grief. That's normal and natural. I also think that your ex is incapable of supporting another person, he doesn't want the responsibility, he can't "give" to others; other than empty words, meaningless gestures - I'm with you on the flowers btw, I'd rather be given something to grow than something already dying too - it's so easy to buy things, to give something, but this man is incapable of giving support of being anyone's "rock".

So I wonder if OW grieving and needing him for support has blown this relationship apart. She's seeing him as he is, someone who needs all the attention and ego-massaging; and he's seeing her, not as an exciting bit of fun, but as a real woman with real emotional needs.

He can't give you or her what you both deserve. So he then makes it about himself, and has "an episode". Now, I've dealt with people who have "episodes" often after they've been sectioned. He, like the breakdown, doesn't have a real "episode". It's just a tool he uses to get your sympathy, get your attention and get you back under his control.

He still wants to control things with you. "We'll talk more on Thursday". This shows you that what you've said hasn't registered yet, or if it has, he's refusing to face it. So you just have to remain calm and resolute and repeat what you've said. No, there's no going back. It's over. You don't have to justify it, or give him support. Just calmly repeat what you want. And like a small kid, he'll kick off, he'll have another "episode" or another "breakdown" - i.e. the equivalent of a toddler screaming in the supermarket, laying down and banging the floor. Treat him the same - calmly walk over him, and grab what you need off the shelf.

You're doing well - getting on with other stuff, rebuilding a life on which you can start having good times away from him. It takes guts, I admire you.

Am just so glad for Mumsnet and the wise words on here, keeping me sane. Just can't believe how timely you lot are or how you read him so well.

Had a 3am text from H (as I said I turn my phone off):

I hope I don't wake you. It dismays me to hear you say 'never'. But then again I like a challenge so maybe now I want you more. It would be great to be back together but do understand the issues and barriers I have created. I have been very ill and you supported me and loved me through an unreasonable amount of crap - and here's an understatement. I will never be with your equal - no such person exists. I will think about all this. By the way I do not expect to turn up one day and we are back together - realise it would be a very slow process if it were even possible to happen.

sorry, should read and there's an understatement

Forward this pathetic text to OW--no on second thoughts don't. They deserve each other.
Wanker

Morning VB. Ohhhh, you are about to be bombarded with stuff like this, mind you, he hasn't really stopped has he He likes a challenge?? WTF??? What an arrogant sod .Even more for you.

Hope you just ignored it. Do continue to ignore it. He's just playing with you.
You are not a "challenge" to be conquered, you are a person with real feelings and your own will. It's STILL all about him, isn't it?

Hey ho. He'll learn.

Really thought, naively it's turning out, that I would tell him 'no chance' and that would be it.

Am shaken by this more than I should be, as it's such a volte face from him. But am rereading the advice, as it helps firm my resolve.

"He doesn't want to be on his own, he isn't sure about OW but he wants to keep you dangling until he makes his mind up (or she makes it up for him by sacking him off). This has established for you how genuine his want to return to you is - not very. You could have wasted time wondering "what if...?" without this conversation - now you don't need to." - thanks Thumb for this, it really is like a weight off my shoulders to hear it put like that.

"VB you did everything right. What is happening is that you are being gaslighted -- he is giving you the impression that your words have come out sounding like 'blibbity blibbity blib blib blib'. He heard you and understood you, don't worry." - (am still lol @ blibbity blib blib, that's it exactly MA!) Gaslighted is a term I've heard used - so not hearing what I am saying/only choosing to hear his own 'truth' is what gaslighting is?

"Flowers for you and gifts for the children = the charm high beam, plus flattering wifey that she is a far better catch than the OW and hinting to you that you are about to win the catfight he likely imagines is going on (because you would fight OW tooth and nail for the prize of the H, right?) But sadly, playing with the hearts of the children too. This is reprehensible of him."

'Charm high beam' is right (kids had it full wattage yesterday, dc3 was revelling in it - gorgeous full on baby laughter all afternoon) and lots of flattery about what an amazing mum I am (having told me similar about OW) and recalling silly bets we'd made (well he was)

And thanks Saffymum too, especially for the mental health knowledge you have, as his so-called 'instability' does concern me. The toddler analogy I totally 'get' and the advice about how to treat it, about calmly repeating what I want, no justification is giving me both the confidence and the right tactics to see this through. My worry is that he will talk himself into a genuine breakdown and say stuff his career...with big financial fallout here and expect others to come to the rescue. It won't be me, but wonder if he thinks others, like his parents, will be pushed out of their resounding silence to care for him.

And no haven't responded to any of his texts.

Gaslighting, as I understand it, is called that because it refers to turning down the gaslight so you are in dimness and shadow, then he can try to make you believe anything he wants you to because you are in shadow and can only take his word for what is real.
So no, him choosing what to listen to isn't quite the same thing. But he can turn your words around in his head, give them back to you with his own twist on them and make you believe that his version is what you actually said - that's gaslighting.

Glad to have helped take a weight off you, VB. I really don't think he will talk himself into a full breakdown, any more than I believe Solost's exH actually lost it and trashed the OW's flat. It's just a ploy, honestly. Rise above it - if he keeps on about it, just tell him he must go and see a GP and get a psychiatric referral and you won't be happy for him to be around the children unless he is given a clean bill of health. That should stop it in its tracks.

I think you're right VB, he will push himself further and further when he sees that all this is not working on you. That's what you have to steel yourself to deal with isn't it? -I suspect all bets will be off and he will start being more and more devious in an attempt to get his own way, using the children in even more horrible ways, and attempting to squeeze you until your pips squeak. Guts and determination will win the day, but it will be hard I think.

Yes, I should make it clear that I don't think anything he says about his health can be trusted. I don't think he'll push himself in that way-I mean he will go on and on at you in ever more exhausting ways and lie and lie. He has shown you time and again how good he is at that at least.

forgot to say was responding to TW. Cross post oh doh!

here is Wiki on gaslighting - I wasn't quite right in my reference point but the actuality of it was about right.
The term comes from a film (Gas Light) where an EA partner tries to make his wife think she is imagining the change in brightness of the gas lights, when in fact he is altering them. It is creating a perception of altered reality to unsettle the other person.

I think you need to get into the "no contact except arrangement for kids" arrangement. It would be better if it is by email, so you can keep copies, but keep copies of texts if possible, but stop reading them. Also start keeping a diary incase you need a restraining order later.
If he goes on about his mental health tell a friend of his, or your ILs, and then wash your hands of him.
I would also suggest no more cosy teas or anything. He shouldn't come into the house, and you should just hand over the kids. Then greet them at the door and goodbye to him.
You are going to have to get tough. Good luck!