Something I really don't understand about affairs and sexless marriages.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

If you don't want sex with your partner, why on earth do you mind if they have sex with someone else? The idea that you are entitled to 'own' someone else's sexuality but make no use of it and prevent them from enjoying it seems so selfish.

Shouldn't having sex be about more than just sex, though? If it's just a mechanical act without any sort of bonding or affection, then maybe..but I think I'd be a bit put out by DP seeking out sex with someone else even though he doesn't have sex with me. Don't know why, really!!

Is it ever as simple though as " he/she doesn't want sex with their partner"?

It's not like saying "I don't like tripe and I never ever, ever will."

It's a whole mix of the history of the relationship , a possible temporary drought, or whatever.

Some people if they are married believe in their vows- for better and worse, renouncing all others, etc etc.

Most of the time it seems ( from posts here) that it's a temporary situation which one partner is hoping can be resolved.

That's like the marriage of Virginia and Leonard Woolf. Poor Leonard, I guess he had blue balls.

SGB- do you equate sex with other pastime such as going for a walk, or to the cinema?

So that if your partner goes off those activites- either by saying so outright, or avoiding them, or being ill and unable to enjoy them or participate, you are quite at liberty to go for a walk with someone else or to the cinema with someone?

Is that how you think sex should be?

A woman may have some physical or self esteem issues that have put her off sex following having a child. The idea that her partner should therefore be able to go off and have sex with someone else because she is not satisfying his needs is awful. 'Not getting it at home' is often used to justify affairs, many of which have devastating and long term consequences for all involved.

Millie- I am not saying that i agree 100% with SGB- see my previous posts- but I do think that the point you make is not totally credible. If a woman has issues with body image or whatever, she owes it to herself and by inference to her partner, to address those and sort them. Not to do so is abdicating any responsibility for sex in their relationship.

It's more when the sex-refusing partner won't address the problem or agree that there is a problem that I think it becomes selfishness to insist on monogamy. There have been threads on year from people whose partners have been refusing sex for years and refusing to do anything to change the situation, despite the other partner's misery. I'm quite aware that libidos fluctuate (haven't had sexfor quite some time myself and am not bothered just now but I am happily single so it's up to me when I want to go and look for it again. And were I in a couple-relationship I would be cheerfully dispatching a DP off to have fun on his/her own account.) and in a healthy relationship, couples can accommodate this because they keep communicating with each other, make suggestions and agree that a libido mismatch is a joint problem, not a matter of one partner being a filthy sex pest or the other frigid and No Fun.
Strawberryjelly: Well, as far as I can see, sex (unless TTC) is simply an enjoyable pastime which a lot of people make unnecessarily complicated, not just by attaching all sorts of additional meanings to it for themselves but by insisting that other people attach exactly the same meanings to it.
Reality: People don't need sex, but it's more important to some people than others. It's not a need like food or sleep or breathing, but like (for instance) books, art, sport, something that a person can become very miserable without, if it's something that matters a lot to him/her.

Do you really not understand or are you being passive agressive? (Genuine question, not me being PA)

I think it depends on the individual and their partner. I have a lot of sympathy with SpringhickenGoldBrass and her point of view. I think that some people genuinely do separate sex from emotion and I do not think it is right that others should judge them harshly for it. Marriage and fidelity is very much a social construct as is the morality of it.

Where I draw the line is the act of betrayal. If your partner and you have the same point of view as above, it's really no one else's business if you both have multiple partners. If either of you don't feel the same, it's a totally different situation. It should probably be discussed more before people get round to having sex in the first place.

I do think though that if your partner is denying you sex for years and years and you have made it clear how unhappy you are with it, it is a form of selfish control. Coercion into sex and the witholding of it are both red flags for abusive relationships. Control of sex, sexuality and reproduction is one of the major ways that people (usually women) are subjugated.

I'm not completely asexual but I have a very low libido myself (I thoroughly enjoy sex when I have it, but I don't get the urge that often) - hence I am not currently in a relationship nor will I consider one with anyone who doesn't understand that they are not going to be getting regular sex on tap if they are with me. It's not fair on either of us.

Like everything in a relationship ? whether it's sex drive, parenting approaches, attitude to fidelity - it's finding the right match that's the key to making it work. That doesn't mean any one person's POV is right or wrong. IMO.

i thin SGB has a point
in first years of lust i bet most couples were at it all the time, it is unfair if one partner suddenly loses interest, what happens if her/his partner has a high sex drive and thought their sex life was going to be constant with time!!!, its not about rights
It would be an amazingly strong couple that agreed they now have different yearnings, and could agree to the affected partner having "just sex" elsewhere, i would admire those that can do that.
i think to many MNers are quick to waltz into the sex is not a right routine
and i think people would have fewer problems if they annalised it less, and just got on with it
required now

EffinNOra: I really don't understand (any more than I understand people believing in gods or homeopathy, or watching the X Factor/soap operas/comeptitive sport).
And thanks Sunshine, that's one of the things I was getting at - that witholding sex while insisting on monogamhy can be a form of abuse/control.

Lots of 'no right to sex' on here when it's the woman who doesn't want sex. Little sympathy for the man. Would a woman be judged so harshly in the same situation?

Am a woman, btw.

There are a lot of women that seem to give up on sex once they have a long term partner/husband and the child/ren they want. I have a lot of couple friends and a lot of married men friends - I know for a fact in these relationships, the women have given up on sex. I think some women can treat their partners unfairly in the sex departement. In the groups that I know, the women use sex or the lack of, to punish their partner. They rarely say what the punishment is for though, so the man doesn't know what to do to make it right

These men aren't cocklodgers or abusive and most of them haven't been unfaithful and won't be. They love their partners, they just want the women that they got together with, back

Withholding intimacy isn't fair, it isn't all about the sex act - men also enjoy the kissing and the cuddling aspect

In an ideal world these men and women wouldn't continue in a sexless relationship but in our imperfect world, I can see exactly why the partner (male or female) would go elsewhere for intimacy and affection

(I also see sex as an enjoyable pastime though and not something that needs to have feeling involved)

I think you have a point SGB - marriages that are sexless (when only one partner wants this) are broken anyway.

Believe me it's a thousand times worse when it's the other way round. We are invisible. See eg scaredofloves post.

Depends on the couple. DH and I have talked about how we would react if either of us was unwilling or unable to have sex anymore. We are both happy to let the other get their needs met elsewhere if it came down to it. We are both highly sexed and to be honest I tend to see sex as an animal instinct rather than an emotional thing. That's just us though - we are not the 'love making' sort.

I think thats fair enough SCGB. My only hesitation would be that someone might bring an STI back to the relationship - condoms are not 100% effective. Even in a sexless relationship maybe people have a shag once a year or something. I think I can't imagine ever being in that position, but I expect people who are in that position didn't exactly plan it that way either.

Do you think that its likely that people who are so uncomfortable or so unevolved in their feelings around sex that they can't discuss 'normal' relationship sex, could actually discuss implementing something as radical and challenging as an open relationship?

I don't know if my comments are helpful at all - the sexless, uncommunicative relationship scenario fills me with horror!

Oh but to point out we are very intimate and I feel more in love through the cuddles, kisses and emotional support I get through my DH than through the sex.

I bring the issue up every few months. I don't want my marriage to end though. I love my husband and we have a young dc and life together.

SGB
I think it is rather naive to keep suggesting that sex is just another activity like going to the cinema or for a walk.

Maybe not for you, but for other people, sex and emotions are linked in a way that a walk or a cinema trip is not.

I think you have a problem with understanding jealousy- it appears to be an emotion which you cannot empathise with.

I'd say that if you lack the jealousy gene, you are never ever going to get why some people cannot give their partner permission to be unfaithful, even if sex is not working for them as a couple.

it's not logical- but emotions aren't by their very nature!

Having said all of that, I do agree that if a partner goes off sex, withholds it as a form of power, has a medical problem which they do not take ownership of, or whatever, then they have to appreciate it will impact on their relationship- and the other partner may get sex elsewhere. But it's not really about sex is it? it's about not taking responsibility for the relationship and sex is the aspect which suffers.

There is a line of thought which says yes- sex in a solid relationship is just that - a fun activity like going for a walk etc ., until it goes wrong- then it assumes an importance which a walk doesn't.

How about the idea that you may not want to have sex with your partner (for many reasons) but you don't want them to want to have sex with someone else? Not you controlling or abusing them, you being sad/upset at the thought they want someone else if you're not perfectly, exactly what theyy want in every way.

I''ll shut up here, I don't have experience in this subject, nor do I have a bone to pick or a personal agenda (nor am I suggesting OP or anyone else does) I'm just surprised that after all your discussion on this subject you don't understand why some people do mind their partners seeking sex elsewhere. Not agreeing , of course, but genuinely not understanding ?

Do you think that its likely that people who are so uncomfortable or so unevolved in their feelings around sex that they can't discuss 'normal' relationship sex, could actually discuss implementing something as radical and challenging as an open relationship?

I think that's a very good point and the answer is probably undoubtedly not.

I think there is no one-size-fits-all solution. One partner could be witholding sex as a form of control. However, in another situation what there's the type of (usually a) man who does nothing around the house and expects his wife to basically act like a glorified servant but also expects her to have sex whenever he feels like it. IMO both are forms of abuse and have much more to do with manipulation than they have with libido.

Whenever there's a mismatch in libido in a relationship, the first question should always be: is there anything wrong in this relationship and if so, what can/should I/we do about it?

I agree with SGB. No one person has the right to inflict their lifestyle choice on another, even if they are married. Especially when that wasn't the case when you first marry. Why should a woman (or a man for that matter) be denied intimacy, touch and ultimately sex? It is not fair to make that the 'norm' in a marriage when one party does not want that.

Yes, I am in this position, and yes snickeringfox, I am a woman. Yes, I have tried to tackle the problem over years. Yes, I could leave my OH but he needs me (there is far more to that statement than I am saying). So looking elsewhere is the only option. I accepted the situation for nigh on 15 years, slowly driving myself more and more crazy, getting more and more fat and unattractive until I reached a huge crossroads in my life with deaths in the family and me questioning my mortality. When I got over that, I took a lover. You can talk until you are blue in the face but unless someone can suddenly develop a raging libido from nowhere, nothing will change. And no, I didn't know this when we were courting or first married. Sex left our marriage and I didn't know why. I still don't really know why although I obviously have theories and ideas about this (too many sleepless nights in the past on this .. I was near to breakdown).

Yes, we have been for help and no it didn't help. At that point I gave up and became unfaithful. My husband knows I have had an affair but I am unsure if he knows that I still am. He doesn't ask and I don't tell him. Believe it or not, we have a just about workable marriage and 2 adorable DCs. But the bitterness never ever leaves you... I was robbed of intimacy and sex during the prime of my life.

So for all of you out there who are at the beginning of a problem such as this in your marriages... attend to it. Get help. Try your best to keep a sex life going and don't deny your partners.

Thanks for this thread SGB - good to see people putting thought into their responses aswell.

"Having said all of that, I do agree that if a partner goes off sex, withholds it as a form of power, has a medical problem which they do not take ownership of, or whatever, then they have to appreciate it will impact on their relationship- and the other partner may get sex elsewhere. But it's not really about sex is it? it's about not taking responsibility for the relationship and sex is the aspect which suffers."

Spot on strawberryjelly

Because it's such an intimate thing, sex gets turned into the focus of many of these relationship problems when in fact it's just another symptom of the underlying. The problem is that it becomes a vicious cycle. Intimacy and/or sex bring couples closer together. Lack of either or both often magnifies other problems.

The big red flag here is being unable to discuss sex and intimacy within a relationship.