Something I really don't understand about affairs and sexless marriages.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

If you don't want sex with your partner, why on earth do you mind if they have sex with someone else? The idea that you are entitled to 'own' someone else's sexuality but make no use of it and prevent them from enjoying it seems so selfish.

Lenin: I think my irritation is that people are under so much pressure to embrace monogamy that many live utterly miserable lives when dumping monogamy would make them happier. What I can't get my head round is the partner who doesn't want sex insisting that the other partner isn't allowed to seek it elsewhere. If you don't want something why do you want to stop someone else having it? I have heard qite a few women say that in the early stages of motherhood (ie you have a newborn and a knackered fanjo and no sleep) it wouldn't bother them at all if their H went off and had a shag with someone else, yet Society finds the idea horrifying.

Almost my first husband and I sound very much like you and your wife. No role reversal - I was the one who had no sex drive in part caused by a specific sexual issue between me and my exH which we did not have sufficient intimacy and maturity to discuss and resolve.

The one slight difference is that he never really attempted to
discuss the situation. To be fair, he did try very early on in the relationship/marriage but not much changed and over the years we just stopped talking about it. It resurfaced when we were in our late twenties and started to see our friends starting families etc. At that point I did try to talk about it a bit - "was he concerned about our lack of sex life" and his response - "not really, it seems normal, we work hard etc". The truth was by that point, after living like brother and sister for so long, his sexual feelings for me were stone dead and there was no reviving them.

He had an affair. It had not gone too far when I found out and we separated. He is now married to OW, I assume happily.

I wish the relationship had not ended in an affair, I wish we had instead had the maturity and courage to discuss our issues and conclude that our marriage was over. BUT we had become so unable to be intimate in any way by that point I don't really see how anything less "catastrophic" would have moved us out of our rut.

I'm so happy now. I sometimes feel like I don't deserve it (not in any serious, needing counselling way) but I think I did make my exH very unhappy (he contributed to his own unhappiness too though) throughout our twenties and effectively made him the scapegoat for the end of our marriage. I learned so much from that relationship that I have brought into my second marriage and in some ways I'm glad that something/anything happened, even the affair to set us both free. Be sure, I'm not recommending that to you as a course of action but do you think your wife is really happy?

There is also the issue of a zero sex life due to illness. It would be a very difficult dilemma for me if my DP (who I love to bits) for some reason or another lost his sex drive tomorrow.

I would never cheat on him but I would really struggle with the thought of no sex for ever more. I realise there are other things you can do regarding intimacy etc etc but there would be a huge sense of loss...

I remember my friend's mother saying after her husband had surgery for prostrate cancer; "What a sad end to our love life". I was quite young and I am ashamed to say that I was a little surprised they still 'did' it.

Now I am 'grown up' I can really sympathise with her.

SGB you seem to be lumping a lot of ideas together here:

Is monogamy a desirable lifestyle ? (IYO no.)
Are people brainwashed into wanting coupledom? (IMO no, it's a choice not societal pressure, and most people do want it.)
Do people actually openlysay they don't want sex?

I know of very few men or women who choose to be alone. The ones I do know of have either been divorced several times, or left long 25+ year marriages, had the kids and are happy to be single in later life. But they are very few and far between ,and even my twice and thrice divorced friends are still looking- but more wary.

I think the situation you describe of one person opting out of a sexual relationship within a marriage is more common than you imagine. People perhaps just get on with discreet affairs. Or not so discreet. Or pay for sex.

But as i said in my post right at the top of this thread, I don't think it's always so simple. If sex is not on the menu there are usually loads of other issues in the relationship that mean it's not working.

'I don't think we need to have sex all the time, especially postpartum. If there is an incompatibility there that is for society to sort out. ...
I feel for women who feel pressure to be back having sex asap or at all, or who are tied to men financially and feel they have to. We should all have babies with men who won't pressure, or with other women..'

I totally agree with this. There is definitely a market there for men and women who want to raise children together as a team, then move on or whatever. This expectation that people have of monogamous relationships, that sex is always going to be on tap etc, well it's just not working is it? Also far too much store is put in vows... we're only human after all, apart from the fact that many people who get married don't actually make vows.
Almost, one day you'll be at the end of your days wishing you'd done something about this. You have ceded all the power....

Personally I felt huge pressure from my biological clock but a monogamous relationship wasn't especially what I wanted. So I picked the closest thing and found a man who would put my children first over all other considerations. Maybe there's a chip missing in me but I'm not that affectionate tho I love sex.. Ideally a less rigid relationship model would suit me to be honest. I'm not looking for a soulmate because I believe the desire for a soulmate is in someone's own head rather than being something that exists de facto.

I doubt if society will change in this regard though, even though monogamy isn't totally working.

Strawberryjelly there is immense pressure on people to form monogamous couples and stay in them. People who have escaped hideously abusive partners are frequently encouraged to look for new partners. People who are longterm single and refuse to act like they are desperate for a partner are patronized and whispered about. Heteromonogamy is OK for those that like it, and some peope do like it, of course. But the fetishization of heteromonogamy, the way in which any other way of living is seen as wierd, dangerous, bound to fail, wrong etc is what causes all the problems.
So me, I'm just busy chipping away at the cult, bit by bit, day by day. It's crumbling already.

The fact that the divorce rate in the US is around 50% suggests that the monogamy ideal has a pretty high failure rate. If you add into that the affairs, and the people who don't do anything about it but are just miserable, then - the whole marriage thing starts to look a bit of a triumph of hope over experience.

But what if you only want to have sex with that one person and no one else will do?

Personally I find it really hard to separate the emotional connection from the physical act - always have. Although I understand that's not the case for everyone.

SGB- Lol you never give up chipping! Whoops- there's one on your shoulder!

Is there such a word as "fetishisation"? ( z is the USA version of -sation)

Sorry but I totally disagree.

You can argue till the cows come home about people being brainwashed into monogamy etc etc but really, I think the problem or issue is in your head and is inexorably linked to your chosen lifestyle , and the perceived criticism (or pity) you endure.

The debate is- does the media (or art) mirror life- or is life mirrored by the media. It's an age old argument.

I believe that most people ( not all) want to be part of a couple. They are not brainless, empty headed people who succumb to pressure- they choose what they want. Just as you do.

I don't know why you bother to fight this "cause" so much. You do what you want, and let other people do what they want. It always looks as if you are really slightly jealous of not being able to have a long term relationship , or that you find it very hard to cope with people's incredulity that you enjoy being single.

Most people simply don't care what you do- or what anyone does- they are too involved in their own lives!

But promotions tap into an existing need they don't necessarily create one.

Strawberryjelly: Whose need, though? Think of all those studies that show the order of happiness: the happiest people are married men, the next happiest are single women, the third happiest single men and the unhappiest are married women. If longterm monogamy were really what everyone wanted, there would be no need for the heavy-duty propaganda.
And as for 'why bother to fight'? well why does anyone fight for any cause if not because they see something wrong, that's causing people unhappiness, and they think it needs addressing?

i love my husband, and i like having sex with him, but i would not want to have sex every single night come rain or shine like i did with my first long(ish) term partner at the age of 19 (and without a fulltime job).

IF he decided he wanted sex every day i would be upset if he went and had it with others 5 times a week...

I'm sure that people who only want to have sex once a month, or once every few months feel the same.

@fluffles we clearly need the European Court of Human Rights to rule on the mandated number of bonks per week (excluding maternity leave and disease recovery of course, and seasonally adjusted ) - then all this angst will go away :o

SarahBumBarer I have asked my wife if she is happy and she says yes. I have asked her what I can do to be a better husband and father and she says nothing - I do more than she would ever want. Problem is she just stonewalls any of my needs that she can't deal with, almost entirely candid communication - the sex thing is a red herring. She knows she has issues around communication and it's becoming embarrasingly clear that she is unable or unwilling to deal with these issues.

fuffles I think you are missing the point of this thread - completely.

Haven't read all the thread but for me it wasn't so much the sex I missed but the intimacy. There was no desire there from him at all, no proper kissing unless you count a kiss on the head, he just didn't fancy me. I felt like a favourite pet. The worst thing was that he kept saying it would get better. And all the time he was having affairs behind my back so it wasn't that he didn't want sex but he just didn't want it with me. Nearly destroyed me it did. Am happy to be single now and have very little libido luckily but when I was in that relationship I became obsessed with it.

Fuck, it was getting on for six years ago and I'm still not really over the damage it caused. I thought I was being shallow at the time by focussing on it so much but it does matter if you're being led to believe it's temporary and the other person doesn't do anything to change things.

Thread has made me feel sad as am burying head in sand about my own relationship. Dh and I were having sex about every six weeks on average (already pretty sexless then), mainly at my instigation. One of the issues is our constant bed hopping with three children, two of whom frequently change beds in the night and want to sleep with one of us. We haven't properly slept in the same bed for a long time. What used to upset me is that even if we had slept together the previous night, there would be no physical or verbal affection from dh the next day or any day following that. The sex is good, but the lack of affection is soul destroying. Dh is very uncommunicative and uncompromising, we have a lot of problems with our "relationship" which I find impossible to discuss with him as he flies off the handle pretty quickly if he feels got at. I am definitely not the "perfect" wife - there are lots of things we could both improve in the way we interact, run the house etc..., but the fact that he is short-tempered, arrogant, can be rude, sarcastic and critical of me, as well as being domineering - means that I find it totally impossible to broach any kind of conversation with him. So our lack of sex is due to the total lack of affection - I don't want to instigate anything any more if I know that dh won't touch me / kiss me in a normal affectionate way during the day. At the beginning of our relationship (15 years ago) he did kissing on the lips on a normal day to day basis but not any more and not for a long time. Our middle daughter (7) dared us to kiss on lips the other day and dh said "that IS a dare" . I was upset for a while as I would love dcs to have an affectionate loving relationship modelled for them. I think dh could carry on like this for years. Without kids I would walk but they are 5, 7 and 9 and I don't want to tear their world apart or not see them half the time which is what I fear might happen :(. I know I have to do something but I fear that if I come up with an ultimatum - eg. we have to go to counselling or separate, I might end up separated. Also I am a woos and don't like it when he shouts. He is 12 years older than me and I think I went for someone a little like my dad - I am the untidy, inefficient "child" in this scenario. I am totally fed up with this but don't know how to change it.
I think thousands of couples have lives like this but that doesn't make in any better - if society / the law / the taxation system, made friendly co-parenting easier, I think a lot of people would be happier and would be able to look for relationships that really suited their developing and growing personalities rather than blueprints which are often outdated and stale. In my case I crave a relationship where I can talk freely about intimate relational issues without feeling judged and where my partner has the emotional maturity to do the same. Where we can both tell each other what we need without feeling attacked. Dh and I can talk (and have a laugh) about the kids and practical arrangements and a little about his work etc... but that is kind of it.

I think I was looking for the word "WUSS" - NOT "WOOS" !!!!

shocked2 what an incredibly thoughtful post

Agree totally with Strawberryjelly's 12,26 post on 1st June

SGB Strawberryjelly: Whose need, though? Think of all those studies that show the order of happiness: the happiest people are married men, the next happiest are single women, the third happiest single men and the unhappiest are married women.

I have seen other surveys which do NOT say this!

Happiness is one thing,( and terribly subjective and hard to measure) longevity another.......

And married women have the better health and longer lifespan of all- single people die sooner and single men the soonest of all.

We can both probably find a survey to suit whatever point we want to make!

Still think you should separate out your two points- you have drifted back to the anti- monogamy issue when in fact your first post was about seeking sex outside of a primary relationship..............