Something I really don't understand about affairs and sexless marriages.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

If you don't want sex with your partner, why on earth do you mind if they have sex with someone else? The idea that you are entitled to 'own' someone else's sexuality but make no use of it and prevent them from enjoying it seems so selfish.

namechange- I do sympathise and I am not judging but your DP should be the one to reply here- because SGB asked "why on earth should you mind?"

From what you have said, your DP does not know that you are getting sex elsewhere. So we don't know whether he minds or not.

If you were open with him then his reaction would be interesting.

My own and final take on this is: sex is a barometer in a relationship. It can be the first aspect to show the cracks- or the last.

Rather than simply flouncing out and taking a lover, committed couples should try to find out why the sex is not working, which is rarely down to technique or bad breath ( though could be) and more often due to underlying resentments ( or emotional hang ups over sex.)

If, after talk, professional help etc, one person is still not getting what they want and the other partner agrees , then finding sex elsewhere is an option. But that involves finding someone who is happy to be on the sidelines of a main relationship- which is another issue in itself- and another huge can of worms.

namechangealso I am where you were those years ago and I feel robbed right now. I don't want that resentment to grow. My wife is an amazing woman who I have the deepest respect for. But I feel she is dysfunctional when if comes to communicating about difficult issues - so those issues get buried.

I have asked her directly if she would mind me taking a lover. She said she wouldn't be able to deal with it and that it wouldn't be good for our relationship (I actually agree it wouldn't work). I have asked her if she would like me to leave, she said no. But guess what, she still won't talk about sex or intimacy or the issues we have. How on earth is that fair?

almost I read your post on another thread and feel very sorry for you. I hope you might think about starting your own tread as I think you might find it useful.

Are you aware of the saying "If you keep behaving in the same way you will get the same results"?

Does this apply to you and your wife?

Have you also heard "You cannot change anyone else's behaviour- only your own".

From what you have posted, it's about control. You speak of your wife as an amazing woman. She is, yes. Amazing in that she is denying you intimacy, unhappy that you seek help through a counsellor, and wants to control who you talk to, about what, and your behaviour.

I would love you to get a real perspective on this and see her and your life for what it is.

Is this the behaviour of someone who loves you?

If a friend was telling you about a marriage like this- what would you tell him to do?

I suspect you are behaving a bit like a doormat.

Unless you change- not your wife, then nothing will change.

Is it not time for some ultimatums- and showing some authority in your relationship?

Has it ever occured to you that part of the problem is that you need to start behaving a bit more like an Alpha male to get some respect and some reaction?

strawberryjelly... I do understand what you are trying to say here but but but....
He knows I have had an affair in the past and as you say he does not know now. If he were to ask me, I would tell him the truth. I would be open with him if he so wished, I just don't think he does. When you have always been the one to bring up the issue, again and again and again.. you eventually decide no more. My sanity is at stake and I cannot bear to tackle the subject yet again. Years ago I told him this. So I s'pose it is now the elephant in the room. It is all very easy for the 'withdrawer' to ignore the problem and hope the other one eventually gives up on the idea of sex.

AlmostGivenUp... I feel for you. You are between a rock and a hard place. Your wife is sentencing you to a life of celibacy and I am sure it is not what you signed up for when you took your marriage vows. My husband is a very dear man too but that doesn't take away the hurt and what I have gone through and tried to cope with, so I do understand. Don't give up and accept it, is all I will say.

Namechange- I'd say it is 99% certain your DH knows. But he doesn't want to ask and be proved right.

I am not blaming you. But I do wonder if you are making excuses about why you stay with him, presumably because it is the lesser of two evils that you have to choose between?

namechangealso, i think she is saying you need a different laptop site and a box of tissues, to satisfy your needs, but then you'll meet the anti porn brigade!!!!!
i feel in some of these circumstances the under sexed lady needs let their DH have maybe a once a week visit to a massage parlour, then its not intimate its just sex!!!

Strawberryjelly.... I feel he might suspect but can't face up to it, because if he does, I will drag him off to Relate and Sex counselling again so he would rather ignore. Ignorance is bliss in this case maybe. It is a very sad situation. I think he would prefer to just have a part of me as opposed to none of me.... I dunno...

Not sure what you mean about the lesser of two evils (but I am a bit dopey today). I wish I had left years ago but I always hoped it would get resolved or resolve itself and then there's the children... Now I am in a sort of caring role with him and I have left it too late.

Jessica...I have done that through all the years anyway!

namechange- it's never too late until you take your last breath.

Why settle for being his carer after the selfish man did not try as hard as he could to meet your needs?

You are worth so much more than this.

By the lesser of 2 evils I meant the wrench it would be to leave and set up alone.

((((hugs))))

Thank you strawberryjelly. I suppose it's because I care and I have never wanted to hurt him. He is not selfish, really he is not... although it is not a physical problem with him, I think it must be a mental block or something else. We have shared history, mutual friends, 2 DCs, our lives are intertwined. However, I also have a secret life too and I will never give it up whilst I am still married.

If the person who is unfaithful has done all they can to make their spouse have sex with them (barring force, of course) and discussed at depth the reasons why they are not having sex AND make a proper attempt to solve any problems issues around sex. Basically done all they reasonably can to have a sexual relationship, then I agree that a person who won't have sex with their spouse has no right to complain if that person is unfaithful.

People are nuts, though, a woman I knew who was just seeing her partner (no children, not living together) told me that they were not having sex as it was not something she wanted to do as she just wanted a platonic relationship (her choice) I did not want to know, she volunteered information! Told me that he had been 'two-timing' her and that she was indignant about it! She honestly expected me to be sympathetic, I couldn't be I'm afraid. I thought she was a bit loopy for her views.

I married a lovely man, he turned, gradually, into a drunken monster. That is to cut a VERY long story VERY short. We had lots of ups and downs. I finally broke down. Depression. It lasted just over 2 years. I even drove my car into a wall to finish it all. Anyway, I now live with a sober man. But I no longer get any affection. No kisses, not even a peck on the cheek. No that's not true, I get a peck on the cheek for Xmas and my birthday. no cuddles, nothing. No compliments. We are like two friends who get on well together. I have asked nicely for more affection, I have cried, I have screamed. I have now given up. I have a lover. I am seriously thinking of leaving. I will never live with my lover, I don't love him. He is charming, everything I would like my husband to get back. Because he used to be charming, sexy, gentle....I miss him. I still love him sometimes. That's why I haven't left yet. I keep waiting for him to come back. I sometimes think that it would be easier to be lonely alone than lonely living with someone. I cry so often at night just wanting to be cuddled. If I had just the affection, I could go without the sex. If he would take me into his arms, that would be enough. But he won't. I once tried to kiss him good morning....if was as if I had hit him. Before, we always kissed good morning, good bye, good night....now nothing. Even a peck would be better than nothing. Not even a touch... So now I am trying to think about how to live alone. Where to move, how to tell the grown-up children. What friends will say, think. His mother. 31 odd years down the drain. I don't think I am a bad person. He is not a bad person. I want affection. He won't give me any. Is he punishing me for something? I have asked. He says not. Will I grow out of wanting affection? I don't think so. I just ache. I have never told all this to anyone. It's so stupid. 2 supposedly intelligent persons getting into this situation. I didn't see it happen. All of a sudden I realised that it had been SO long since anyone had touched me in any way. Sorry to have been so long. Not sure what I want to say, but just needed to get it all out....

But namechange he has hurt you- incessantly. By not taking ownership of the issue.

I am speaking partly from experience here. I had a boyfriend years back with psychosexual issues. After 2 years I took a lover. My lover ended it and I told the BF. He didn't blame me- in fact we had an unspoken agreement that I was *allowed" to pursue anything.

I loved my boy friend dearly. But in the end I had to accept that he was never going to work on the issue as much as I had hoped. I left him finally, after 5 years, for someone else but 30 years on we still echange Xmas cards and have the very occasional chat.

I just wish you had the courage to leave and find what you really desire. Life's too short to compromise.

strawberryjelly I think I probably have become a doormat. I have progressively softened my approach on these issues (and others) because confronting them directly in the past has done nothing but ended acrimoniously. It is my natural approach to address things directly, but I have got nowhere and I have read too much Mumsnet about domineering husbands and stupidly told myself that I must have been been too domineering. Hence changed approach. I have also seen my father bulldoze my mother all through my life and am determined not to do the same.

I have given her ultimatums in the past and they have worked but everything slips back into the same rut every time once we are "cosy" again. Chuckling at your alpha male comment because I am look back at how I used to be in my life and where I am now. My self esteem and self respect has been sucked out of me over the last year or 2 and I think my marriage has played a large part in that.

I am not accepting my situation I am in but I am being stone walled. There comes a time when you have to accept that a relationship has run its course and this may well be it. But I really am struggling to accept it due to teh huge ramifications it will have.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

Marriage can be a convenient institution in which all sorts of behaviour which is not that pleasant is nevertheless tolerated because of the marriage. I am astonished sometimes by the way that married couples treat each other - the nagging, the controlling, the moaning etc. The thing is, if you elect to leave the marriage then you are in a situation where you have to take responsibility for your own life and happiness, and that can be quite a scary prospect. So it is easier to stick in the relationship. Also, there is always the possibility of disappointment - things may not be better outside so stick with the status quo.

Given how much we expect of marriage these days, I am not really that surprised by how many people are struggling with sexual intimacy. As someone said upthread, it is a barometer of the relationship, in many ways. If my partner withdrew any physical affection and sex I would seek it elsewhere and I would not feel guilty. I would expect him to do the same. I would not necessarily expect to separate or divorce either because quite frankly it is a monumental hassle and the divorced people I know aren't necessarily any happier than the grumbling married ones!!

Noluck... Oh my goodness. I feel for you greatly. About 2 years ago I picked a bit of fluff off of my husbands ear and he recoiled from me. Please bear in mind he doesn't hate me, he loves me.. he just can't do affection, touch, anything. I know all that you say. I have woken in the night after dreaming my husband was hugging me... then I realised it was just that... a dream.

I ache too.

I am so pleased you felt able to type it out and I want you to know, there is someone out there that understands. Me. I think you are a similar age to me. I feel my children would blame me too, if I left. They adore their Dad in a feeling sorry for him 'leave him alone Mum' way. I could never tell them the truth because it would destroy their father.

I waited and waited too... I always imagined it would get resolved somehow. But it didn't. And here I am.... a deceitful woman who lives a facade to everyone that knows her.

Being unfaithful is not necessarily the act of simply sleeping with someone else. It is LYING about it, and I don't give a shit what anyone else says but that cannot be justified.

On my way to see a divorce lawyer later today - my H was perfectly allowed throughout our relationship to seek sex elsewhere on the proviso that he told me before it happened and I could make a decision as to whether it was something I wanted to accept or not. The same applied vice versa. For well over a decade, we enjoyed a loving yet and open relationship. The moment it went to hell was when he inexplicably chose to start lying to me about it.

So, in answer to the OP,
"If you don't want sex with your partner, why on earth do you mind if they have sex with someone else? The idea that you are entitled to 'own' someone else's sexuality but make no use of it and prevent them from enjoying it seems so selfish."

If a partner chooses to seek sexual solace outside of a relationship, the DECENT and MATURE thing to do is to let the other partner know who can then make an informed decision as to whether it is something they are happy to accept or not. The idea that people are entitled to pursue their own sexuality at the cost of honesty to their partner and being ready to accept the potential ramifications of their actions seems IS very selfish.

Namechangealso, I have tears in my eyes reading that. I am 56. A professional woman. Great job. Still attractive. Funny. My DH, because he is still D to me, is also extremely intelligent. Talented. Funny. The only difference is that I don't think my children would blame me. I also feel deceitful. But sometimes, knowing that someone "out there" does love me (that's what he says anyway) and even if it's not true, I don't really care, that helps me through the days and nights of heartache. If that makes any sense. I just don't think that I can wait anymore....I now have the choice of leaving and perhaps being a very lonely old lady or taking a chance now, while I still can. It's all heart breaking really. Do I eventually break DH's heart (not even sure about that) or do I let mine crumble little by little?

I agree with OP. I think there is often denial. The person who refuses sex tries to minimise the importance of sex with the usual cliches 'we 've got lots in common' etc. It is good if you like the same kind of pasta but sex is important too if the other person -man or woman- wants it.

And also although there is much emphasis on sex among young people (on internet, real life chats etc), imo the opposite happens for older couples with dcs 'you don't have sex after dcs', 'sex? whats that?' etc. I don't think such statements help those who are in denial.

noluck, your not lonely your just sexless, you seem to be getting the love and affection at home, keep it that way and find some no strings physical fun

But she doesn't get affection at home

Jessica, I have found the physical fun elsewhere, I would like to have it at home instead and no, I don't get love and affection at home anymore, haven't for years. The thing is, I didn't realise that it had all disappeared...all of a sudden it just hit me. After years of running around at work and at home, I had a look at me and my needs. I discovered that I had been ignoring them for years and that my DH had, I presume, decided that I didn't need anything anymore. I can't even feel guilty anymore, just sad. Have tried to talk to him but he just says that's how he is....he seems to have rewritten alot of our history as well....

noluck, namechange and almost

I think we are all around the same age. I am 56.

Can Ijust tell you something about my parents? I thought they were happy but when they were 70-75 ( married at 21) my mother confided in me to an extent and was thinking of leaving my father. A lot of it was to do with emotional distance- on his part- and a lack of affection. In the end she decided she could not do it due to money- they don't have much money or a valuable home and half of what they have is not a lot.

BUT- I can't bear the diea of any of you feeling as she does/did in another 20 years time.

You are still young enough to have a 2nd chance. You cannot live your lives according to other people's expectations- children's or whatever. You only get one shot at life.

Don't waste it.

almost- you need to start a dialogue again. Things slip back because you allow that. Stop putting your wife on a pedestal. At some point you have relinquished control and you need to get it back along with your self esteem.

:( I'm only 32

noluck... you are me. I am same age and in the same situation. I just crave affection, touch and being wanted as a woman. I know my husband wants to stay married, he has told me... but we probably haven't touched (and by touched... I mean anything other than bump into each other on the stairs) for a long time. The MOST we do is a peck on the cheek when I fly off on hols with girlfriends for a break from this relentless problem.

My husband is a lovely man too. Super intelligent but very very insular and doesn't 'need' people like I need people. He spends a lot of time on his own and likes it that way. All I know is... I have tried so hard. I worry what will happen to him if I leave though. I worry about my kids and their reactions. And I don't know if I am brave enough. Plus I can never tell a lot of people this so I will be ostracised probably. I also worry what will happen to my DH if I left him... I don't wish to be egotistical here but I think he would crumble without me.