Conjugal rights in marriage

[kismet1]

Apologies if this is a bit heavy in the morning but I need to ask seomeone... Am I unresaonable to think that it is not on to be groped while asleep? DH thinks its ok but I think I slept better when the kids (now 6 and 4) were waking me every few hours

No, you are not being unreasonable at all! Very worrying thread title.

What does he do when you say you're not interested?

You are in the right.
There is the letter of the law, and then there is the spirit of the law. Denying you husband sex for no reason isnt the same as wanting to get a good nights sleep and not be groped up all night long. Tell him that, and quote chapter and verse at him. If he still doesnt listen, he 's just an arse who is picking and choosing the bits of religion that suit him.

Thanks. He does listen and stop on the whole but then seems to forget again so quickly, especially when he's had a few drinks. I just get fed up of explaining the same things every night in the middle of the night, sometimes more than once. If it was the beginning of the night it would be different. He's not completely unreasonable but he seems rather oversexed to me.

Kismet , its unreasonable to grope someone when theyre asleep , even once .

I think you need to have a talk about consent. Obviously, consent is usually pretty clear-cut but there are some grey areas that need to be addressed iyswim. If you aren't comfortable with him making advances on you when you're half asleep then that should be made clear - outside of the bedroom. Personally, i don't mind it. But this was discussed before hand. Similarly, if one or both parties is drunk - is it ok/not ok. I think too often people make assumptions about what is acceptable, based on their own attitudes.

I'd have a chat with him about it, make your position very clear. You do not consent to being groped when you are asleep. It is not acceptable to wake you up for sex. Talking about it in the bright light of day should hopefully clear things up between you (you say he's usually reasonable) and, of course, it gives him the opportunity to discuss anything he wants as well.

If you have repeatedly told him to stop, and he continues, can I recommend a swift kick to the shins every time he attempts it? Cause and effect, you see.

Alternatively, throw the mother of all hissy fits and tell him he has to sleep elsewhere if he can't keep his hands to himself. I am not the type of person you want to wake up unless the house is on fire, tbh. DH would fear for his balls.

to clarify ^. of course, consent still needs to be sought in the moment as well if it has been decided that half-asleep/drunk sex is ok. no matter how much talking goes on beforehand no still means no.

Kismet, there is no such thing as 'conjugal rights'. Rape in marriage is now recognised as a crime and men who rape their wives can be prosecuted. Point that out to your H.

And before everyone starts, yeah yeah, a drunken grope isn't the same as rape. But it's still a sexual assault if it's unwanted.

I appreciate that a person whose partner has stopped wanting sex particularly if the partner in fact says there will be no more sex in the relationship, is going to be unhappy, but when there is a libido mismatch you a) try and solve the problem by honest discussion with the partner about what both of you would like to happen or b) come to an agreement that the high libido partner can have NSA sex outside the relationship with the low-libido partner's knowledge and permission or end the relationship as amicably as possible.
OK there is less-ethical option d) which is for the high libido partner to seek sex outside the relationship as discreetly and secretly as possible without telling the low-libido partner.

What is not an acceptable option in any way shape or form is for the high libido partner to have sex on the other partner's body, repeatedly, against the other partner's wishes. A man who keeps trying to have sex with you when you don't want him to will eventually progress to raping you, because he thinks you are 'his' and not a person at all.

If my bloke did this whilst drunk he'd be sleeping elsewhere. If it's every night regarless of drink then I'd be discussing a separation as he obviously has no respect for me and my opinions, or separate bedrooms if the relationship is otherwise good.
Being groped isn't very sexy anyway and tell him if he gropes you it puts you off sex rather than turning you on.

I just get fed up of explaining the same things every night in the middle of the night, sometimes more than once

If you mean the above literally there is a serious problem in your marriage . What sort of man gets pleasure from groping a woman who is unconscious and not aware of whats going on ? Your husband seems to think your in a permanent state of consent and that he has access to your body regardless of how you feel about it .

As Sgb says above , there is no such thing as conjugal rights , your body is your own and he has no right to do anything to you without your consent . Never mind repeatedly explaining to him , he doesnt forget , he knows how you feel , he just doesnt care . I dont think id want to be married to someone who requires constant explanations of why i dont want to be groped in my sleep . Dont explain again , informhim that if it happens one more time youll be sleeping seperateley.

I'd be moving in to the spare room.

I appreciate the support and feedback. I understand what your'e saying SCGB but I am satisfied that it will not progress to rape here. Nolita, I don't mind occasional approaches when asleep and I understand that drink does that. I have to admit that I know that if I am feeling a bit touchy feely in the night I just have to turn over in the bed and he will wake and do what comes naturally (to him) but its the relentness of it that upsets me. I have brought it up in the daytime and I've had the consent chat, the legal views chat, the have some thought for my high blood pressure, I need the sleep chat.... I just waste so many days because I'm shattered through the day as a result. Especially on the days when I have to get up at 4am for an early shift at work. And of course that impacts on the kids too cos I end up so tetchy...... course he blames that on the time of month.....sometimes ALL MONTH!

He did suggest last night that I could move into the spare room when it's a problem (he had been to a stag night so I am allowing for the drink here) but he did take the point when I said I didnt see why I should have to sleep on the less comfy bed when I'm not causing the problem. I said that i should be able to have a decent nights sleep in my own marital bed

Oh Kismet. Sorry but your marriage is doomed. because this man is perfeclty aware that you don't like being woken for sex. But he DOESN'T CARE how you feel. As far as he is concenred, you are 'his woman' and if he wants to fuck on your body he can just go ahead and help himself.

What do you think would happen if you responded to his groping with a good hard smack in the face? If your honest answer is that you are afraid he would hit you back harder and then fuck you anyway and that's why you haven't slapped him after all your requests and protests have been ignored, then you really need to get out of there.

And this bloke's redeeming features are?
He sounds a selfish boor.

SpringchickenGoldbrass - are you for real?
I think you are projecting your thoughts about men and rape into posts that do not necessarily warrant that approach...why not save your horror for genuine rape cases?

He does have redeeming features. I have always been reluctant to discuss this problem with friends because nothing is ever completely black and white and I am worried that they would end up with a really bleak picture of him. As I said, I DO NOT believe this will end in rape or that my marriage is doomed. I recently had a throat infection which meant that occasionally I would stop breathing for a spilt second and then he stays up and watches over me so he can nudge me awake if he needs to. He is caring in many ways and a selfish boor in some ways but so are many men from what I have seen. I don't see myself as a victim and I don't feel like one. I am just very tired and wanted to know that I am not wrong to say no as often as I seem to have to. I don't understand as well why the libido doesnt manifest itself at the beginning of the night except that he falls asleep at the drop of a hat and I don't.

Oh dear, I'm sorry that talking it through hasn't helped. How long has it been going on for? if it's recent, what's changed to cause it? Would this behaviour be a problem if it weren't for the early starts/tiredness?

Kismet , it sounds like youve been very very clear about this yet hes activeley choosing to ignore your feelings about it . How often does his groping result in him getting the sex he says he wants ? I ask because i beleive that people do what works , and dont do what doesnt . If he actually wanted sex he would change tactic because this obviously isnt working .

What is working though , is that your getting upset about it , your suffering because your tired , and the constant message your receiving is that your feelings dont matter . Some men use groping and pestering for sex as a way to bully and assert their rights over their wife , others do it knowing they wont get sex so they can justify an affair . Either way , its nasty , and you shouldnt have to put up with this in your own home .

Sgb mentioned the possibility of this behaviour escalating , something you seem quite confident wont happen . But unless hes done this from day one when you were dating , it has escalated . Somewhere along the line hes given himself position to sexually molest you and to ignore your feelings about this . Sadly having been in your position , and read many posts from other women in your position , i am inclined to agree with sgb that it will escalate , slowly but sureley .

Never mind whether the other beds not comfortable or not , from his point of veiw the fact that you are complaining but not actually doing anything is an invitation for him to continue .

"He does listen and stop on the whole but then seems to forget again so quickly"

SGB is quite correct. This man doesn't "forget" as you suggest. He knows very well that you don't want to be groped but carries on regardless. He has no thought for your feelings on the subject. You are his wife and therefore his possession to do with what he will. I would also be very wary as SGB and Diggs have suggested, of this escalating.

Where do you really see this situation going OP? You have asked/demanded of him on numerous occasions to desist - he has ignored you. What do you really think is going to happen? He gets an epiphany? He starts treating you as a human being? Because nothing in his behaviour so far suggests that will be the case so what else is likely to happen?

In addition how does he treat you in the rest of the relationship? Does he respect you, do his fair share around the house and childcare (if you have any), speak to you nicely in private and public etc?

Hmmmm, it's been going on, on and off, for years. We've been married for 7 years and had long periods, mostly when kids were tiny and we were both stressed when we didn't have sex for months on end. During those periods the groping wasn't an issue. It becomes an issue when we are getting on well strangely enough. I think maybe you're right. The spare room might be the way to go for a while.... for me or him. I suspect that he would even accept it if he was banished to the spare room as I have done some nights when he's been out. I have used the spare room myself a few times but maybe doing it for a continued period would make him think a bit harder about his behaviour and how it affects us all. Thanks. No, Nolita, talking it through is helping...really. I feel less lonely. Talking to family or (non virtual) friends didnt seem possible.

Oh dear, the hum drum beckons and I can hear the washing machine calling.

I think its interesting he does it more when your getting on well , because presumably being woken up constantly and pestered causes you to cease getting on well ?

Instead of looking at the behavior , it is sometimes worth looking at the motivation behind that behaviour . Why would someone repeatedly indudge in a behaviour that they absoluteley know the other person finds upsetting ?

How many hours have you wasted having these chats explaining the same thing again and again . If he didnt enjoy the consequences of his behaviour , ie , these chats , and the effect it has on you , he wouldnt do it . We dont tend to engage in behaviour that has negative consequences , somehing we all learn as a small child . Hes clearly getting something positive out of it , and it isnt sex.

does he do it when you are 'getting on well' as he would like sex and thinks there's more of a chance of it happening when you are getting on well?

Dropdeadfread, yes I think so and I guess sometimes it works but more often than not it doesnt. he's not a monster or anything. when sex causes me discomfort or pain and i say so he stops instantly.

I get what you are saying Kismet...he's tiresome rather than predatory
But I do think it's not very considerate of him but I guess if he has a % of success he may be tempted to continue...?
Why not suggest an earlier night ..and could he perhaps let you catch up on sleep at the weekends if he is the one who is making you tired?