Conjugal rights in marriage

[kismet1]

Apologies if this is a bit heavy in the morning but I need to ask seomeone... Am I unresaonable to think that it is not on to be groped while asleep? DH thinks its ok but I think I slept better when the kids (now 6 and 4) were waking me every few hours

I am struggling with the same situation as regards dh and sex. It has been going on for a number of years and seems to be getting worse.

Basically he wants sex much more often than me and usually at a time I definitely don't feel like it. I often am woken up by him stroking me or snuggling up to me and when I complain am usually told that I am not normal, most women would be pleased their husbands fancy them, or asked, but why don't you like it or he starts to huff and sulk and refuses to talk to me about it.

I am at the stage where I don't know if I am being unreasonable or whether he is subtly bullying me. We have endless conversations about it where I explain I don't like my hair being stroked, being woken up for sex, sex in the morning just as the dcs are about to get up and bound into the bedroom and he says he doesn't understand why I feel that way and that he needs to feel close to me, that sex isn't about just sexual relief but it binds us together and if I loved him I'd want to have sex with him.

It feels like we only seem to get on well together if we have had sex in the last 2 days, then the cycle begins again.

None of the above probably helps you, I'm sorry, but it has helped me a little just to write some of it down. The irony of it all is that I would really like to have a satisfying sex life and a harmonious relationship with my dh.

Well, you are normal, memechose. You're not being unreasonable to want to sleep through at all, and I do think he's bullying you more than being loving. To pressure you for sex when he already knows it's not likely you'll want it at that time, it's a bit screwy.

usually at a time I definitely don't feel like it.

It used to be that way for me too Meme . We actually had a fair amount of child free time , youd think the hassling would be worse on these occasions , but absurdly it didnt . Instead it would happen in the kitchen while the dcs were in the front room , when i was about to go out , when we were in a resteraunt ect , or on the phone , or if freinds were due . What are the chances of me engaging in sex with dcs in the next room ? I often wonder what his reaction would have been if i had welcomed these letchings on these occasions ?

The reason he wanted sex on these occasions is because i clearly didnt , and i do think its a form of bullying and emotional manipulation . Its not up to your H to decide how you feel , or to argue against it , you dont like it and he shouldnt do it . When you start to doubt whether your being unreasonable for feeling a certain way its a sure sign your being manipulated .

I lost all respect for my H in the end . I would look at him while he fucked away on me knowing i hated it and feel nothing but hatred for him , he literally made my skin crawl . He also wou;d demand kisses and constant affection in a whiny child like way . I couldnt hug him or sit near him without being groped yet he would whinge about his lack off affection .

The joke is , that at one time we had a good sex life . I had a high sex drive so he never needed to mither and harass , doing so meant he got less , not more , and it also deprived me of a sex life and any sort of affection . Sabotage i suppose , and something to beat me over the head with .

Diggs, I could have written exactly the same post. I also had no respect for him, it made me shudder with revulsion but I became good at hiding it.

Can I ask what made you decide to finally leave these people Diggs/Queen?
Diggs it seems to me that you are right about your dh and his sexual advances... He almost seemed to deliberately pick times you wouldn't/couldn't reciprocate...

DDF, I am glad to see you are gaining some insight into relationships that don't mirror the exact framework of your own. I am assuming you are happily married to a man that respects you, yes ?

I have seen it reflected back many, many times on these boards that other posters shock and outrage at something that they had previously taken for granted that they had to accept was like a revelation. These are the kinds of subjects that are difficult for some to discuss in RL because of shame, embarassment or a misguided feeling that it is their own fault. For not being sexy enough, for having a low libido, for not showing him enough affection, for not putting out exactly when he wants it, for being a frigid cow etc etc. You can see how the belittling and the chipping-away at someone's confidence can happen, surely ?

Nobody ever got the idea somehow "planted" in their head that their bloke was an abuser from anonymous sites such as this one. No-one here has an agenda in wrecking people's relationships. By the time people post this kind of intimate stuff they are either so fucked in the head by it that they lose a sense of what is normal (a common refrain on the relationships threads) or just need someone, anyone to confirm that what they are feeling is valid.

If cries of "abuse" or "as close to rape as can be" are OTT, I trust and rspect the OP in question enough to weigh all the responses and find a middle ground that suits their own situation. As should you. Invalidating their feelings only pushes them into feeling they must be wrong after all (which is why they got so low as to post in the first place).

His horrible sense of entitlement made me leave Dropdead , it affected every aspect of our relationship , but showed itself more severeley in the sexual side of things . He felt he had a right to dictate my feelings , telling me i was wrong for feeling a certain way or that i was over reacting . Over a period of time i began to beleive him thinking i was a horrible person who was never happy.

The last night we lived together we had gone out for a meal . As soon as i got in the car the groping began and the sleazy comments . I told him to stop , and he continued , we had not yet even got off our street . I told him to stop some more but he continued . I looked at him leering and pawing and noticed a horrible smug grin on his face and completeley lost it .His response was to start crying claiming that i was always horrible to him , id spoilt his night as always , i didnt love him ect ect . I got out of the car and went home , while he drove off in a huff .

I sat at home in a seething rage . My night out was spoiled , id been made to feel like shit again and , as usual i was humilated and frustrated beyond beleif . Eventually he came home , and aproached me where i was sitting , claiming he was sorry if hed upset me , i was angry and said so , stating i wanted to be left alone . He insisted on trying to hug me and kiss me , which i objected to several times . At this point he was stood over me looming in my face for this kiss and a hug , as usual he wouldnt take no for an answer .

After a few minuites of this , i pushed him away , not hard , just to get him out of my face and the next thing he forcefully pushed me back onto the sofa , got his hand in between my legs and penetrated me with his fingers , i was trying to wrestle him off but couldnt . I snapped in a way i would never want to snap again . I am a trained fighter and i beat him like i didnt beleive possible . He RAN around the house crying and screaming trying to get away from me , but couldnt . Eventually he ran out of the hose crying and sobbing and i made sure he knew not to come back .

I sought counselling and relayed this . She said there was no differance between the previous gropings and this particular incidant , he had just got braver , and more entitled , and i beleive that to be true .

It's also a very simple truth that nice men don't behave like this. Nice men may, on occasion, want sex when their partners are not in the mood, they may ask for sex (but immediately accept a refusal without throwing a strop or calling the partner names). If there is a libido mismatch, nice men talk to their wives about it andlisten to what their wives have to say.
A man who is constantly waving his cock about when his partner has told him that this doesn;t make her want sex is always a man who has a lot of other unkind, selfish, obnoxious ways of demonstrating to his wife that she is not a person, is not as important as him, and that her refusl
al to submit and obey is a fault in her.
And yes, men who consider women less-than-human sooner or later progres to raping them.

diggs

I am so glad you are away from a man like that

Me three Diggs and queen and I am now also free of it. it's odd for me to read other's stories that are so similar.

If I ever did initiate sex with him, he would reject it (not the right time or wasn't into it in the morning or whatever) - it had to be at his initiation and it was always when I didn't want it. In the end he repulsed me and I realised just how much about control it was.

Thankfully I am with a lovely partner now (been together almost two years) and he has never, ever once touched me inappropriately, nagged me for sex, or been huffy about it.

springchicken my ex was like that too - used to belittle everything about me, but quite happy to live off me and expected me to do everything for the house and for him, whilst never ever doing anything for me.

My God I'm shocked at that (just read your post about the last night you lived together) Diggs that's horrible. I am so glad you are free of that.

For me he didn't do that - but he was quite happy to have sex with me while I was upset, crying or clearly not wanting to or even falling asleep (IE: when hed ground me down enough for me to agree, for a quiet life) and he did express a number of times that women only have to lie there, so he didn't see what the fuss was.

I would just like to address the point raised by DropDeadFred earlier in the thread where she said that being violently raped by a stranger was "much worse" than your husband or partner having sex with you without your consent.

I would just like to say that comparisons of pain and suffering are not helpful. Different individuals respond to trauma in very different ways. The same individual might respond to similar traumas in very different ways over her lifetime. Let me give you two completely fictitious examples to show what I mean:

Woman A is walking home alone at night and is pulled into an alley and raped by a stranger at knife point. Woman A escapes with her life and goes straight to the police. She is treated with kindness and respect. The police tell her in no uncertain terms that they will do everything they can to bring the man who did this to her to justice. Woman A is supported by her friends and family and her feeling that what has happened to her is wrong and not her fault is constantly reinforced. She goes to court and although it is hellish being cross-examined and reliving her experience she at least gets to see her rapist get sentenced to ten years in prison. Woman A receives a huge amount of support from groups such as rape crisis and undergoes counselling with someone highly trained in supporting rape victims. She is a resilient woman with high core self esteem and goes on to live a contented and successful life in spite of her traumatic experience.

Woman B's husband pesters her for sex constantly despite the fact that she has made it clear it upsets her. He touches her when she doesn't want him to even though she has asked him repeatedly not to. When she complains about his behaviour he tells her that 'normal loving wives' want to have sex with their husbands and that they welcome their husbands attentions. He sulks. He's grumpy and hostile with both her and the children until she gives in and has sex she does not want with him. Woman B begins to believe that the poor state of her relationship is her fault and that she is causing the whole family to suffer. She feels guilty. She also feels confused. Surely it isn't right that her husband is attempting to coerce her into sex she doesn't want? She feels she is going mad. She decides to reach out to a couple of trusted friends for advice. She is told - very kindly - that perhaps if she just made a bit more of an effort things would get better. Perhaps he's stressed. No-one deserves to live in a sexless marriage and she doesn't want him to start looking elsewhere does she? She could invest in some nice underwear maybe or start looking into that female viagra? Woman B is consistently told by well meaning people that it is somehow her own fault that her husband continually sexually abuses her. There is no sympathy for her and no justice. No offer of support. She responds to the repeated trauma by becoming withdrawn, depressed and anxious. Her husbands behaviour escalates. Her mental health deteriorates.

So you can see how it is entirely possible that Woman B might experience her trauma as "worse" than Woman A.

What I would like to say (if people will permit me my soapbox for a minute) is why why why do women not stand together in solidarity against these outrages committed against their own gender? It is not ok for a man to have sex with a woman who does not want to. Never ever. Full stop. That's all. We do not have to try harder to placate abusers. We have to stick up for each other and say no.

I've finished now.

Makeyourown , thats so right about woman B . My freinds suggested initiating sex more , spicing things up ect . I went to see a counseller and tearfully explained . She asked me why i didnt like having sex with him and explained to me in a patronizing manner that lots of men have a highter sex drive and to compromize . Nobody said to me that it was wrong , that it shouldnt be happening , everyone supported him . I posted on here too , and amongst the advice to lie back and think of england and other daft stuff , there was the odd solitary voice stating that it wasnt ok , and i was so gratefull for that . Dittany was one of them .

I reported him to the police . The officer was sympathetic but stated that the chances of any sort of conviction was very very low because we were married , if he was me he would try to move on and forget about it . I went to the Gp and cried and explained . She refused to give me Ads and refered me to anger management where i was told to punch a pillow if i felt angry about it , wtf !!

I was told by a professional "can't you just make the effort? Men stray very easily without sex you know".

Diggs I'm so sorry to hear that not only were you subjected to such disgusting treatment by your ex-husband, but that your trauma was also then compounded by other peoples responses to that treatment.

You don't need me to tell you that the idea that sex is something women owe men and must give them regardless of their own wishes is still very pervasive in our society. It is a viewpoint that suits only men but women have been successfully conditioned into thinking it too.

The funny thing is that when you put it like that, most people will deny that that's what they believe. But it is a classic example of cognitive dissonance when they then go on to advise a woman who cannot stand to have sex with her pestering husband that she should in some way 'make a bit more of an effort'. The underlying message is always 'it is his right to have sex with you, you have to find a way to make it bearable as refusing is not an option.'

But it's a lie. The right to refuse unwanted sex is a basic one. You knew that and your eventual response to your husbands assaults was born of that knowledge.

You took yourself out of that situation. That takes guts. All power to you.

Once again, and for the last time I DO believe that rape is rape regardless of whether it is by a partner or a stranger. I wAs not saying that rape from a partner was not as bad.
My exact words
'Tbh in worthless's case I do think of ghat as rape or as near as...
It's just having known someone who wS savagely raped at knifepont by a stranger I do struggle to think of a wife saying ( to the man she lives) ' oh go then, but I'm not really 100% in the mood' as being exCtly the same.'

I was referring to only that- agreeing to be NICELY persuaded into sex e en if not at first feeling in the mood, not being bullied, coerced, emotionally blackmailed or physically forced. I have apologised if any of my posts gave the impression that I was belittling the horrific experiences that some posters on here havd had to endure .

Can I ask what made you decide to finally leave these people Diggs/Queen?

My story is longer. The sexual stuff was the least of it - the control, manipulation, gaslighting was much, much worse.

One night I had this huge physical collapse. My body literally imploded on itself - I lost consciousness, voluntary movement, any strength etc. He took me to A&E and I spent a month in hospital. I was eventually diagnosed with a conversion disorder.

Being in hospital thought gave me the insight that other people's nearest and dearest didn't set out to bully and make then cry all the time. This was a startling insight for me. I told my doctor about my ex's treatment of me, but she didn't do or say anything.

When I left hospital and had to go back, it was clear to me that if I stayed I would get sick again and I didn't want to do that to my daughter. With the help of Women's Aid and Mumsnet (thanks again SGB and Dittany), I realised how bad is was.

But there is huge pressure to have sex. Women are constantly told it's the glue that holds a relationship together, sometimes you should go through with it even though you don't feel like it, that men need/want sex and it's their way of feeling close. That's where the damage happens.

And I am sure it's no coincidence that I was violently sexually abused as a child. My ex didn't need to use force, I was terrified because (although I did not have conscious memories) I knew that some men will do anything to have sex with you. In my case it was my Dad - apply any feminist analysis you like to that!

The sexual stuff was the least of it - the control, manipulation, gaslighting was much, much worse.

I agree .And this sexual groping rareley occurs on its own , it usually occurs with a range of other abusive behaviours , i think the Op is also being seriously emotionally abused by her H as he refuses to listen to her .

I remember reading up on emotional abuse and being . Years and years of arguments and being told i was wrong suddently made perfect sense . Textbook . Why didnt i know about this stuff ? Who were the people who knew about it and why hadnt they told me ? I was really angry and felt a new found rage for all the people whod made " helpfull " suggestions and encouraged me to stay , and work harder at it .

Considering the statistics re women being abused , the amount of resourses required , from police call out to womens aid , social workers ect , and the impact on society , why on earth is this not taught in schools ? If we sent our daughters and sons out in into the world fully armed with this knowledge i think it a possibility we could put a stop to it .

Wow. Some utterly shocking stories on this thread :(

I think what's amazed me and saddened me most though is the responses of so called professionals. The very people who are presumably trained to spot a client in trouble, telling them to lie back and accept it. Disgusting.

I have never really thought about the view of 'conjugal rights' (apart from learning in Law A Level that rape within marriage only became illegal shockingly recently) - probably because I am lucky to be married to a man who respects me and my body and would not dream of doing anything I didn't consent to.

But actually it makes me angry that I have to use the word 'lucky' - it shouldn't be luck, should it. I only have what every other woman deserves, and it's really awful that a lot of women end up stuck with so much less because society sees it as normal and acceptable.

You know Diggs there are some trainers within Women's Aid who believe the Freedom Programme should be rolled out to all girls in the last years of high school.

I don't know whether you have heard of the Freedom Programme but it teaches women all about the various tactics that domestic abusers use to maintain power and control over their partners.

So one week women will learn about the Head Worker. He uses tactics such as gaslighting, belittling and put-downs to make us feel stupid ugly and worthless and as though we are going mad.

And the next week they might learn about the Jailer. He subtly alienates our friends and family and stops us from going to college or work in order to control and isolate us.

Then there is the Sexual Controller and the Bad Father and the Bully e.c.t. The Freedom Programme does not focus on physical abuse but looks at domestic abuse from all angles.

The last session covers early warning signals. Things to look out for at the very beginning of a relationship that give you a clue as to whether a man is potentially abusive.

As part of my training to facilitate the Freedom Programme I had to do it myself. There was a big group of us and I can honestly say that every woman in that room got something out of it, whatever her personal experiences of relationships had been. Because every single woman in the room recognised at least some of the tactics had been used against her at some point during her life. Sobering stuff.

I just thought what you wrote about sending our daughters out into the world armed with this knowledge was really interesting. I agree, we should.

What are men supposed to do when they have a much higher libido than their wives? Just spend the rest of their lives frustrated? It's always going to be a problem, and treating men as rapists for wanting to make love to their wives is not going make the problem go away. Men are in an impossible situation, and it's unfair to blame us.

Please note than I am not advocating marital rape or pestering women into having sex against their wishes. Just stating the facts.

rob it's very clear from several posts here that pestering doesn't help/work. What men need to do is talk and listen and probably attend counselling as a couple. Or split. But definitely not pester.

Who here has suggested treating men like rapists because they want to have sex

"Who here has suggested treating men like rapists because they want to have sex"
That is the impression I get from reading some threads. The woman's libido is the one that is "right" and if the mans is different, he is the one with the problem. He can't ask his wife for sex, he can't use porn, and if he goes elsewhere for sex he's lower than shit. Whereas if a woman has a higher libido than a man, he's at fault as well, and she can't be blamed for leaving him for another man.

That isn't said here as far as I can see. This is a thread about particular men who are abusive to a great degree, at leas one of whom raped his wife, not a thread about libido differences. It's about how groping doesn't turn women on.