Conjugal rights in marriage

[kismet1]

Apologies if this is a bit heavy in the morning but I need to ask seomeone... Am I unresaonable to think that it is not on to be groped while asleep? DH thinks its ok but I think I slept better when the kids (now 6 and 4) were waking me every few hours

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Worthless your post makes me so :(. As for "his wife and he is my husband and that married people have sex that is what they do" what is it that your husband thinks men do ? Whatever they like by the sound of it. He istotally vile.
Please dont let him treat you like this. wives and husbands enjoy each others company and sex with each other - when its consentual for both sides.Sometimes im glad theres not a guy in my life , even if id like to have someone around sometimes at least theres no one treating me like shit , sexually assaulting me or verbally abusing me every day.
You are worth so so much more than any of that.

Dropdeadfred , im a little about your comment about inconsiderate men . This isnt a man trying it on with his wife , this is a man assaulting his sleeping partner . He wouldnt do it to a neighbour , and he shouldnt do it to his wife . The fact is he has no more right to do it to his wife than he does the neighbour .

Worthless , i remember your posts , im sorry to hear your still there , that must be tough . Are you getting any support in rl ? Please please change your name , perhaps Ihaveaworthlesshusband.

This tactic is actually extremely common in sexually abusive men. There is something about their partner being asleep and therefore not a consciously consenting person that gives them a huge feeling of power and control. This behaviour is deliberate I'm afraid Kismet - it is not that he can't help himself or that he forgets you don't like it - he likes it because making you feel bad makes him feel superior.

I'm sorry if that's hard to hear but sexual abuse is not just about the use of violent force. If a man continually gropes his partner without her consent then that is sexual abuse. If a man continually pesters an unwilling partner for sex until she can't take any more and gives in then that is sexual abuse. If a man says or does things of a sexual nature that make his partner feel bad or uncomfortable then that is sexual abuse. We must rid ourselves of this mindset that unless we are physically struggling and screaming no then it does not count as abuse.

The fact that if you complain or get cross he then blames it on you as in 'must be the time of the month' shows exactly how much respect he has for you and for women in general.

You need to recognise this behaviour for what it is and then have a think through all your possible options as to what you can do. Just remember you are not responsible for his behaviour and it is not up to you to try to change it. What's happening isn't your fault.

hear, hear MYODD

Sexsomnia, like sleepwalking, exists all right but it's rare.
And there's the thing, a nice man who has a problem like this is going to be mortified, miserable and running to and fro with doctors trying to work out ways to cure it. Because he appreciates that it's not right and not fair.

If the Op says she feels assaulted then my apologies... I understood this to bs more of a 'hopeful touch' rather than a physical assault. I don't think it's right that op's husband should treat her this way... I jusg don't like how many posts about this type of thing get blown into 'rape' accusations

DDF, the "rape" analogies are to demonstrate that unwanted and coerced sexual attention is just that, whether it be from a stranger in the street or from your own husband

don't you get that, at all ?

sorry, meant coercive

even the title of the thread "conjugal rights in marriage" is misguided

such a thing does not exist, thankfully

although it seems some men, and women, are under the impression that marriage confers complete sexual availability at all times

it doesn't, and shouldn't

Royalfucker - yes I do understand. I dont think I am explaining my thoughts very well. I'll egg some sleep and comd back in the morning.

Get not egg ... Bloody iphone

I think you are conferring your thoughts very well, DDF

I have seen similar ones from you before

You seem to be of the opinion that rape does not exist within marriage, or you have a very visceral reaction when someone suggests it

why does it boher you so much ?

do you not think that some husbands coerce their wives into having sex that they don't want ?

when do you think coercion crosses over into rape ?

when only physical, overpowering force is used ?

think again...

I jusg don't like how many posts about this type of thing get blown into 'rape' accusations

If Kismet was saying that in fact her neighbour was sexually touching her for years whilst she was asleep , would you feel it was mereley a hopefull touch or an out right assault ? The answer to that is obvious , yet neither of these men have the right , morally or legally to do this and the law doesnt differentiate between the two . The differance is the H has given himself permission to do this because hes married to her , and he can bank on being supported by others who share his beleif that marriage equals ownership .The right exists nowhere but in his mind and that of his supporters .

Why should the op accept behaviour from him that she would not tolerate from anyone else ? Why does he think he has the right to do this to her knowing he would be looking at a prison stretch if he did it to any other women ? Do you think it right that she is afforded more respect from a strange man than she gets from her husband ?

The law does not differentiate . It does not say that Mr Kismet cannot assault sleeping women , except for his wife , it says Mr kismet must not assault any sleeping person ever , regardless of whatever relationship exists between them . Kismet is entitled to expect her H to treat her with the same courtesy as he does everyone else , not less .Marriage is not a licscense to abuse , women do not sign their rights away and cease to have the same basic human rights the minuite they get married .

Royalfucker - you have made assumptions about my beliefs which are wrong. I do think a husband can be guilty if rape. And I know in law ( ANC fir the victim) it is the same crime.
Tbh in worthless's case I do think of ghat as rape or as near as...
It's just having known someone who wS savagely raped at knifepont by a stranger I do struggle to think of a wife saying ( to the man she lives) ' oh go then, but I'm not really 100% in the mood' as being exCtly the same.
I know it can Be humiliating and awful to be forced or coerced into sex by a partner though and I'm sorry if my posts don't seem to reflect that

Go on then , but im not really 100 % in the mood .

Shudder. In other words i dont want to but i respect your right to fuck on me regardless .

My ex used to grope me during the night , well all the time actually , along with vile disgusting comments . I genuineley never saw it as an assault , more of an anoyannce . I would laughingly complain he was like Benny Hill . My freinds were happy to support me in this veiw , ie tut , men eh , what are they like . Like the Op i would have various conversations about why i did not like it , how it made me feel ect and he would openly dispute any objection i put forward . Basicly if he wanted sex and i didnt he would harass me and pressure me until i caved , asking for reasons then rejecting them all as excuses . Somehow , him , and me , apointed him the decision maker , the managing directer .

I lived like this for a long time , resenting it but reasoning that all men were like this and it was pretty much normal . With hindsigh i can now see how it escalated . Initially he would stop groping when i said so , sporting a wounded puppy expression . Then he started huffing and puffing and sulking . Then it started to take him longer to stop groping when i objected . Then he wouldnt stop groping until i pushed his hands away . Eventually i would have to literally wrestle his hands away and i remember the derermination on his face that he was going to grope for a few seconds longer . Wtf !

There was never any violence or threat of violence , And at the time i did not feel assaulted or traumatized , just irritated and pissed off . but each one of these incidants was an assault on me , sexual contact that i did not want and which he was fully aware of . It was only after i kicked him out that i realised how bad it had been and began to feel so traumatized i sought out counselling and cried constantly . Even now , i am hyper vigilant even when asleep . If my P drapes an arm over me when im asleep i jolt awake with my heart racing , a reaction i didnt have when it was happening .

Sadly i married someone who had a sense of entitlement and ownership , i too beleived in his entitlement and ownership , not surprising when ive had a lifetime of freinds , family , tv , society ect shoving it down my throat .

Diggs . - I'm sorry you lived with that happening - yes I agree that was assault and I can see how you must see another side to this than me. Sometimes my dh will touch me and I may not really feel like it...I hDnt thought of doing anything that night. If I am really not interested of course I can and do say so and nothing else will happen beyond a cuddle and kiss goodnight. Sometimes though I think of times that I 'get into it' as things progress and so I don't mind saying okay then... But I do agree that other people have different relationships and different ways of feeling about it and if they really don't want to do anything they shouldn't have to whether through bullying, verbal abuse or emotional blackmail.
The op did state that she also instigates sex whilst her husband is asleep sometimes so I guess he thinks it's not always been something she comPletely doesnt want... Withou knowing what her husband says in reply to her I cant understand their situation fully

It is very interesting to me to read Diggs? last post, since it makes me feel that the opposite of the general views on here were true in my marriage. I was married for 25 years and the sex was very infrequent, but since my wife was my ?first? (and I was hers) I didn?t really know a good way to resolve what was a problem to me, other than by talking, or trying to talk.

Her response, to my suggesting that she never seemed interested, was if I kept at it then she would eventually be interested on that occasion and it would be fine, the outcome being that I saw that women liked a man to be ?in command?. That didn?t seem right to me as I always looked on it as being a mutual thing and couldn?t ?push? it. I get a sense of confused messages from what I was told was the right way and what I read here.

Conversely there were times when I woke in the night with an ?urge? and with a bit of touching by me we had better sex than would normally have been the case; we were both quite happy (she did tell me that on these occasions). My feeling is that when in half sleep all the inhibitions, including the underlying relationship issues that might have been there when awake fell away (for us anyway).

The conclusion I come to here is that the state of the relationship is the underlying problem in all these scenarios; clearly illustrated by OPs H not listening and just expecting. Further, if OP was not worn out by DCs, and not unhappy with H not paying attention, the outcome might have been very different. Whatever the more strident amongst you think, men do see things differently, and it is not constructive to shout rape / abuse all the time, rather to try to get to some common point that can work for all. I am certainly not trying to justify the Hs behaviour, more trying to moderate the extreme responses that arise (and trying to clarify things in my own mind).

And just to make it clear ... No I don't mean ' I respect your right to fuck me' in my case it's more like ' go on then, I know you will make sure I enjoy it as you know I'm going to take lOnger to get in the mood etc'
My dh would be sickened if he thought I was ever just allowing him to fuck me against my will

Dropdeadfred It's just having known someone who wS savagely raped at knifepont by a stranger I do struggle to think of a wife saying ( to the man she lives) ' oh go then, but I'm not really 100% in the mood' as being exCtly the same.

No, they're not exactly the same. I was violently sexually assaulted by a work colleague about 12 years ago. It was horrible but also clearly wrong, I was not 'asking/encouraging it/whatever and it did not leave me with long term hang ups.

My ex pestered and bullied me into having sex for seven years. He forced me to engage in things he knew I did not want to do. It got worse and worse. By the end he would just turn me over and do it from behind, regardless of the fact that it hurt and/or I was crying. He believed we had to have regular sex and he would say it was because he loved me. That has left me with many more scars and hang ups.

So, no not exactly the same. But I know which was worse for me.

Queenofwhatever. - I'm really sorry that you had both those terrible experiences. I didn't mean to cause any hurt or offence by my post. Obviously what your ex did to you was rape. By exactly the same I meant the crime not the experience.
I only meant that being halfhearted about sex sometimes is nog the same as being raped ( either by a stranger or a partner)
Once again, I'm sorry if I havd caused offence

Sunrays , you didnt learn that women liked a man to be in command , you learnt that your wife liked it . Others wouldnt have , everyone is differant .

Theres nothing wrong in sleepily snuggling up and mutually enjoying each other , but if your wife had told you that she didnt like it , presumably you wouldnt have continued , and certainly not for a number of years .

It is realistic to expect this to be a one time conversation ie
Wife - Dh , i do not like being groped while im asleep .
Husband - Ok .

It really is that simple . Theres no ifs , no buts , no deep analysis of the relationship required or explanations needed . If somebody doesnt like something sexually then you dont do it . To choose to ignore that persons feelings and continue to do it is abusive behaviour .

Queen

Dropdeadfred , theres a massive difference between how things are in your own marriage and the ops and i dont think you can see the differance .

You dont mind your H aproaching you for sex , your happy to do it even though your not perhaps 100% in the mood , you might not mind him waking you up in the night . Thats not wrong of you , your both happy , enjoy !

But the Op DOESNT like it . Shes told him this and asked him to stop . He hasnt .

If tonight , your H started to do something sexually to you that you didnt like , presumably youd tell him and hed stop. But what if he didnt ? What if he decided your feelings dont matter and continued to do it anyway ?

No Diggs, I. My last few posts I have been trying to explain why I initially didn't understand the op's siuation because I assumed it was like mine. Now I know differently and i've had my eyes opened to how bad things can be. I do understand really I do