Divorce papers served - have I done the right thing?

[Wisedupwoman]

Had to name change again to be on safe side.
Been posting on other thread - hope followers recognise this.

H gone five weeks ago after second affair in 4 years was discovered by me but not before he gave many, many clues and slip-shod attempts to keep it 'secret' from me. H wanted out and would have known my reaction to finding out hence i think he took this way to force my hand. Heartbroken as long, long relationship with both adult and teenage DC's involved.

Today the divorce papers went to court to be served. The therapist I'm seeing commented that this has been quite quick. This has set up train of thought which goes 'was this my fault, am I assuming too much here about what H really wants, is he such a monster........'

Need ongoing support about this please......

Hi - not long been home... just caught up with your last few posts.

Good news he's returned the divorce papers uncontested! Tough about the money - he doesn't have to like it, he just has to pay it! I am a bit confused as to why your Sol has said to leave the divorce for now? What about it is 'too much to take on'? (Is he worried you can't afford to pay him??).

If I had £££ I'd pay for you to take him straight to court!

What does Sol say about PTM lying about the state of his finances??

RE DD - she may not like you saying 'He did, she did' but at the end of the day she is 16 and YOU have to get what you can out of this so you can support both of you and if that means telling it like it is, then so be it. She wont be the one worrying if you can't make ends meet - you will x

I don't think you are being paranoid - but I do think you are crediting him with actually thinking about DD, whereas I think the stuff with DS was simply to rub your nose in it.

I agree with Minesa - you need to think about exactly what you want to get out of the mediation (you have a good basis in your post in reply to her) and don't settle for less. Don't underestimate what you could get and fight for more than 50% (you have DD). Small details too like the 'new' house would be in YOUR name and only YOUR name. I would also want to know how enforceable something is that's agreed at mediation - ie what happens if he doesn't pay the mortgage (if he agrees to that). IF you are getting the equite in the house and PTM agrees to pay a mortgage of x amount on a smaller property is there anyway you could stay where you are now and top up the mortgage yourself?? (IF you want to stay there still).

Nice to hear that Stilettos got an airing :) and you could walk in them - so now you have (at least) 2 killer mediation outfits!!

Hello.
HAH! i beat both DS and the cats this morning! Couldn't get back to sleep so up with tea.

I'll put on my best front for mediation Timeforme.

Chips. the divorce and the finance are separete issues in law. Sol was concerned about it being an emotional and psychological maesltrom to take on both at the same time, and he wants PTM to pay for the divorce without going to court so it's a way of avoiding my having to argue two fronts at the same time.
Sol says we know he is lying, either by siphoning or hiding or disposing of assets or omitting debt, but that only through mediation can this become an issue we could go to court with. I can't go to court based on the bits and pieces I've put together so far, so I have to be seen to be trying first. And yes, based on what he knows about my situation he is worried that I won't be able to afford court - he's being realistic about the potential loss to me.

Whatever is agreed in mediation can be made legal and enforceable in court and I will not agree anything unless PTM contracts to do that.

I don't know about the house, whether to stay or go, what mortgage companies do about these situations. It may be difficult to get another mortgage because of the divorce unless they are assured that he will pay by it being a legal agreement. All that is still to be ascertained, I guess.

Anyway, by coincidence last night DD's friend found out her DM has been having an affair - they were BBMing about it and DD was asking me what to say to her friend to help her, and this opened up a talk between us about me and her D coming face-to-face soon.

I told her the truth as gently as I could and we talked about what she wants me to say if her D wants to mediate about where and who she lives with, including with the OW and him and her children. She now knows everything. She didn't cry or shout. I saw the realisation dawn on her that he is lying to her about where he is, where he has been, what he's been doing, about her brother being introduced to OW and her DS's in the first week of separation, everything. I didn't do the "he said" thing, I just told it like it is and how I know. Apart from saying she will never ever go to live with them and that she will punch OW's lights out (that's my girl) she just said "oh my god, he's gone to be with other children, are any of her children D's do you think?". I could have cried but I didn't and said no (he had the snip well over 10 years ago). She's so strong and dignified even at her young age. All she wants is time with her D, nothing more except that he fulfills his promises to make good as best he can for us and she wants me to go for it.

I can't ask any more of her than that. So I will think hard about what I want, I'll bargain hard when I know what it is I'm aiming for and I won't let him see how much it has hurt.

Thanks for everything, all of you. You help keep me going when I want to fold.
and ((hugs))

Morning!

Just a quick stop here for now. I think some of the others have better knowledge of the courts but I do agree withthe OP yesterday who suggested that you know what you want before you go into the process. Its a much stronger bargaining position as you are not taken off your guard. Anything more than your minimum position is a bonus

I applaud you for your conversation with your DD. Isn't it funny how the opportunities arise (like its meant to be) and that you were in a better place in yourself to be able to speak to her. If you had engineered that conversation, it would have been very different. How sad that she realised that he has gone to be with other DCs. Thats heartbreaking even to read.

What I feel so strongly about is telling them the truth. She is old enough to take these things on board, however unpalatable they are. In our family, a huge amount of lies were woven round a separation and divorce and even ten years later, they are coming out of the woodwork and the DCs (although older) are having to come to terms with it all over again.

The interesting thing is that when the truth has come out (with concrete eveidence) they have all said that they knew that something else was out there and they would have rather known the truth at the time. The real damage was to relationships, some of which will never be the same. Its the layers of lies which are the hardest to unpick.

Your DD sounds a well rounded and compassionate woman. Sounds as though you have a really good relationship with her. Thats what will see the two of you through this.

Oh, and the fact that she wants to take a pot shot at the OW - i like it!

evidence

Morning :)

I'm trying to kick the 5am habit. 6am is good, 5 is just a tad too early. As it was stupid o'clock when I went to sleep last night I managed to go back to sleep till 7. I hope you stomped around the house and annoyed the cats

It is funny how, in the UK, divorce & the finances are two separate things yet being married impacts on the financial settlement. (All of my legal stuff was overseas, so somewhat in the dark about what happens here). So are you saying that if PTM agrees to pay for it you can go ahead without going to court (for the divorce?) but if he argues about paying for it you would have to go to court? Or do you have to go to court either way, but PTM pays for your legal costs as well? (V confused - can you tell - LOL).

Likewise the whole mediation to prove he's lying before you go to court sounds like more expense not less...

Are you happy with your Sol?

Yes - the decision about the house may be determined by what you can do about a mortgage. Which I guess will depend on your income and how much equity there is in the house. Didn't your Sol have any idea? Can you ring your mtge company up (anonymously) and ask them?

I think it would be good to think about what you would like to do if you had the choice.

Poor DD :( It would all be hard enough - his affair, him leaving, him living with the OW, lying to her etc - but to know he's living with her kids is really really hard. (How old are her kids?) and on top of that knowing he is still lying to her. I think it's gutting that those are the facts, but it's good she now knows, she needed to. At least now she knows that you are going to have to push/fight/argue - whatever, to get your 'fair share' because he's not going to fulfill his promises off his own back.

You are doing really, really well. You are constantly finding out more and more of the unpaletable truth, you are dealing with that, taking time to think about what's best and then talking to DD calmly when the time is right - no-one could ask anymore of you than what you are doing.

I know it's still shit and I know no matter what he's done there is still a part of you that loves him and wants it how it used to be - a part that wonders where the man you married went. You have to grieve for all of that, whilst staying strong against the bastard he has become - it is hard.

We are all here for the victories & the tears
x

morning. I feel better now the 'truth is out there' but not in an X-files kinda way!

The sit. re the divorce payment is that it has to go to court anyway for the decree, but it costs either way. so because i am the petitioner, the protocol in these cases is I petition (or 'pray' in legal parlance) the court to make him pay for it. and the default position of the judge is the respondant, PTM, pays for it.
I'll be able to tell before we get to mediation if he's actively lying or lying by omission because before we even clap eyes on each other i get to see his finances and if there's anything not there that i know is the case i will be able to insist he discloses before we meet and pay anything. sol is also insisting in his letter to PTM that he pays for mediation due to my circumstances and his vastly greater earnings.
I'm happy with sol, just not happy with what he tells me, and i don't think i'd get any better news elsewhere, but he's good at knowing which kind of mediator to go to (one who specialises in complex financial divorces and adultery).
I'm going for all the equity and for him to continue to pay the mortgage plus maintenance as it's the only way i could afford another house.

i have to go now, on a training day.
see you later
xxand thanks

Divorce - that makes sense :)

Mediation - how can you be sure he's not hiding other stuff you don't know about though? What if he has done something like enter into a mortgage with the OW or take out a huge loan you know nothing about, that would stop him being able to take a mtge on for you? It's good that your SOL is insisting PTM pays for mediation - hope that comes off!

SOL - it's good you are happy with him and great he can send you to a good mediator.

I'm in The Room today - so will be in & out! Have a meeting tonight so wont be home until late.
x

Hi Wisey - just thought it might help to let you know that the mediator my solicitor recommended has just called me to arrange my first appointment. She said that I can have initial mediation alone, and if I'm not happy to continue to the stage where I have to sit in the same room as Lycra man, I can opt out of mediation altogether, and refer it back to my sol. So she's reiterated the advice my solicitor gave me - mediation is an option to some, for me it will probably just be a hoop to jump through the once - then back to solicitor to deal with. HTH X

Sorry that you and dd are having to deal with issues re OW. Knobhead ptm. Agree that truth is better out there, even when hard to deal with.

With respect to money matters, has your sol advised on what might be realistic to hope for from a court? And the range of potential settlements, risks, costs etc. Since you don't want to agree to anything in that sells you short iyswim.

I agree with chips, suspect that ptm will not be honest in the financial disclosure.

Hi,

No I don't know what ptm has been up to financially, except from the bank statements i have and my knowledge of his credit cards, and what i don't get is that he is splitting the addresses for some of his post - the bank and credit stuff is coming here and other unimportant mail, but other stuff must be going elsewhere. mysteriously a parcel has arrived today which was only sent yesterday, and i'm so curious about it, it's obviously something from ebay. I don't know what that's about i honestly don't.

Also got another upbeat text today from him saying how much he 'appreciates' my phoning the bank yesterday as he can now attend to budgetting again (?).

Sol hasn't said how much I can go for, he has really been steering me toward mediation to try and do it there and i think his hesitance is about just not being able to advise without knowing the full financial picture first. All i can do is get the statement of finances, compile and compare it with my own and then go back to sol to ask his advice during the mediation process. I have a friend who is a financial whizz and im seeing him tomorrow to go over ptm's suggestions and try to get a bargaining package together based at the moment on the income - which I do know is correct.

RE: DD, well, I'm going to keep talking with her, i know she is terribly hurt about OW having other children around her age and older - she almost certainly feels bottom of the pile, like I do. Her exams are still going well though, she's motivated to do what she wants so that, at least, is on track. School know about our situation and her teachers are very supportive of her.
Sol's sec just rang and read out the letter to send ptm about mediation - i made her take out a sentence which said that i had understandably found it difficult to adjust to this new situation and had needed time to get to mediation stage. can't be seen to give him an inch of ground, can I?

I felt a bit flat today. Just putting one foot in front of the other really.

WRT to OW's house, she is closely related to a mega national housing builder and lives in one of those, probably as a tax benefit to her relative - so i don't think mortgages are an issue here for ptm and her.
Spoke to someone else who is friends with a barrister. he says his understanding that the court starts from a 50-50 split and works from there either way. it's possible but i don't know that i could get a free chat with this guy but even then it would be a general chat and couldn't be specific to me, rules i think.
i hate the uncertainty and the huge responsbility to make the right decision because so much rests on it. on the one hand i feel like i'm going cap-in-hand to ptm for a handout and on the other i feel owed something for everything i've invested. ptm will be coming from a different position about doing the necessary to walk away but still fall on his feet. i hate that, i really hate it.
I loved him so much and the grief of how much is gone is enormous. someone who doesn't know the situation told me today he sees a woman in therapy in her 60's who is chronically depressed following her divorce years ago. i dread ending up in the same position.

Wisey: How happy are you with your solicitor? Mine thinks that mediation is a pain, and she's against it - she was very open about this. She thinks it causes more problems than it solves. She has, as I've said before, recommended a mediator who will see me on my own, so I've jumped through that hoop, then I can refer everything back to her to sort. She wants, this and I want this - but I will attend the initial mediation, just to tick that box and say I tried it, it wasn't for me, (sol told me it wouldn't work and seemed frustrated on my behalf that I have to do it for even one session on my own). I'm just concerned that your solicitor wants mediation to sort this out, when he should by now know the sort of man you're dealing with. It's not to late to challenge him on this - or even switch solicitors. I just want what's best for you, and a solicitor who is on your side. I feel I'm in safe hands with mine - and want the same for you. X

Sassy - I agree. I can't offer much advice on that side of things as I did all my legal wranglings overseas - but even so, mediation was a waste of time :( I know it's cheaper, but I don't see how Wisey's SOL thinks she can sort things out at mediation with a guy who can't lie straight in bed?? :(

Wisey - well done on getting that taken out of the letter!!! A couple of weeks ago you wouldn't have done that - you are learning

I would have opened the parcel He has other places he could/should be getting his mail/parcels sent to, if he wants to fuck you off by getting them sent to YOUR home then ... hey, it's fair game.

What a weird text - he really is losing it

Financial Wizz tomorrow seems like a good plan!

If you can get a free chat with the barrister you should - you have nothing to lose and you might get some hints/tips or ideas for the mediation.

You are doing a lot more/a lot better than just putting one foot in front of the other. You are going through an awful lot emotionally - it is incredibly draining - go easy on yourself.

It is a big responsibility to get it right... on the other hand, you have a career, you are able to support yourself (even if that means moving to a small rental property) so even if you get less than you 'should' you will be OK. It is NOT going cap in hand to PTM is it simply sorting out the finances of your marriage - you both contributed to the 'pot' and to where you both are career wise etc, you were together a bloody long time and had DD together, made decisons together... decisions that enabled him to carry on with his career fully supported by you. This process just works through that to get to a point where you can both live after the finances have been divvied up.

The grief of the future you have lost is HUGE - it takes a long time to fully come to terms with that (if ever) but I promise you that you will get to at least the same place I'm at, (which isn't as good at the place others have got to, but it's a lot better than where you are at now and it's OK)... and you will be fine. You will not be in your 60's having therapy because of this - that poor woman does not have the nest of vipers on her side - you do!!
xxx

Hi Saffysmum.

I would definitely be happier with my sol if he were saying the same things as yours. She sounds fab, she really does. But I don't get legal aid so I am paying for absolutley everything and even if ptm ends up paying costs (which might only be 50%) it'll have to come from somewhere i.e. less maintenance, less equity, etc.

I can quite honestly see ptm standing up in court and agreeing he's been unreasonable, admitting adultery and all that went with it, agreeing to pay me whatever, simply because he just wants out. And i'd pay alot of money for what might feel like a hollow victory when he leaves the court without a backward glance. He won't respect me more for it, I won't look any more dignified, it won't make him lose any sleep, he's far too into his own mess. That's how i think it will be.

So sol is urging trying mediation only because he's concerned about the affordability of it all: £5000 just to get to court and £10,000-£15,000 to go the whole hog with a barrister and bells and whistles. He's made the calculation based on our joint income and house value that this just isn't worth going for unless mediation doesn't work and then, yes, I can go to court.

So i am now thinking I might get a better deal by mediation because if ptm pays for that and I get all the equity plus the mortgage on the current home or another one which me and DD choose, maintenance on top and half his pension, I will have saved alot of money and that's now what all it's about.

it's no less a bitter pill but I think I have to accept the ugly and monstrous way in which our marriage ended. I can't change it, or put it right and it won't hurt ptm to go to court because the truth is he isn't thinking of that now, he's thinking of his own future and i can't hurt him any more save for his being less well off than he would have been as a married man. but true.

It's over Saffysmum and I don't want to make this feel any worse than it already does by pursuing something which may not pay off, for the sake of trying to punish a man who doesn't care enough any more. Only if mediation clearly isn't the right way can I think about the alternatives (oh god, I can't believe I'm saying all of this and I don't know where it's coming from).

It's not about losing the will, it's more that I have to face the truth - it's gone, he's gone and he's not coming back so I have to make the best of what's left. I will still remain resolute and distant, detached and cold, because this is a man who I don't know, and who is known as 'the artful dodger' by his colleagues - so I need some comfort from knowing that all this is not about me and anything I did or did not do, it's about him and the mess he's made of every area of his life. If I pursue him I will also be pursuing the fantasy that it was about me and that won't be good for my health, sanity or my DD.

I wish it were not so. DD has been crying her heart out.

Feck, this keeps happening, the posts cross over.
Chips is probably reading my post as I type this having read hers.

that poor woman does not have the nest of vipers on her side - you do!!

I love that. I'm not giving up, I swear. If mediation doesn't work out, and I don't have any faith in it, or if sol fails to deliver some clarity for me, I'll find another who will. He who pays the piper and all of that......

Oh now I feel like i look ungrateful for the passion you show for me to get some sort of justice. I feel how concerned you are. i want it too and I truly wish I were able to say o fuck it, lets nuke the bastard. Sorry, i think i know it's coming to a head.

but i saw him on that last day. he looked bleak and lost. he was telling the truth when he said how fucked up in the head he is because all the evidence since then shows this. it was all about him, of course it was, and doesn't excuse a single bastard thing he has done.
but if this is now all about me and DD, then i want my own front door, my own space, my own world in which there is calm. to get that i will smile, nod, be pleasant and civil when i have to: i'll be tough and no-nonsense when i have to. and in between i will be silent and unavailable.

And he'll know deep down that the world he creates for himself is built on a pile of shite.

Hi Wisey - you're up with the dawn chorus, looking at the timing of your last post! Are you ok? I understand totally why you feel that you have to give mediation a go, because the costs are horrendous aren't they? Even though I've got legal aid, I will still have to pay costs too (although only a small proportion). Even this annoys and worries me - like you, I didn't want or cause any of this - and it really gets my goat that we have to pay for anything, when we are paying enough emotionally.

Like me, you probably (I'm reading between the lines here) know your husband inside out, afterall we've spent so many years with them. We know they are making the biggest mistake of their lives (and they are). But we have to stand back and watch it and deal with the fallout that affects us. I feel that my STBXB is a total stranger now, but that doesn't rub out all the good years. I think about what he's done over the past two years, how he silently left without a goodbye to his kids, how he's been with them since then, and I imagine the man he was, all those years ago, watching himself now, and know he would have been disgusted and appalled. But they've changed and we have to deal with how they are now. And it's a bit like watching a car crash in slow motion for me - painful to look at, but I can't help myself by watching in horror. And I know there is no going back, the damage is too much, he's destroyed any love I had for him, by his treatment of me, but like you, I still think about the future we could and should have, if he remained the man I did love very much for many years.

So, one day at a time - you're right in putting your and DDs needs first, and for wanting calmness and your own front door. You'll get there, I promise.

Oh forget the dawn chorus - bit - misread your timing, thought you were up at ten to five! Yet another blonde moment!

Right now my aim is to sleep til 7am.

Chips the mail thing, a small but somehow significant issue, is the only way other than by witholding the mortgage ptm can 'send' a symbolic message that he still has some ownership here.

Of course he could get it sent anywhere he likes and I would never know, but he chooses not to. Whether it's to wind me up or get a reaction from me on the lines of "get your fucking mail redirected you bastard" (or most likely of all just plain old laziness) I'm not going to do that. I'm going to put it all back in the post marked 'not known' and just leave it at that. Passing it on through DD is a communication between us and it isn't helpful to me to do that.

I've got to this place because for many weeks now I've been coming here to you and all the other wonderful MNers - WWIFN, Saffy, SugarPaste, Alldownhill, Timeforme, Dozer, Annie, Cabbageroses, Migrating, Eggy (and Peter when he was here!) and all the others who have delurked to support and wish me well. I don't even have to read back to remember who you are and what you've said which has taken me to this point.

I read your posts and they've been nurturing, angry, sad, funny, wise and solid. They have fed me when I've been starving for anything to fill the terrible void.

Now I must begin treating ptm like he's a fully functioning mature and adult human being even though we all know the reality. I think it's only by doing this I can rise above all the posturing, manipulation, control, deceit and cruelty. Meeting these behaviours with like behaviours only puts me in exactly the same position - meeting them with different responses, no matter if they appear compliant, is the only way I'll get through this and let him go.

X

Catching up here as we have visitors this weekend. Thank you for your kind comments; if the posts here give you enough strength to get from one day to another, then MN is doing its job. Its not necessarily a forum which is an online version of the playground or awkwardness of a coffee morning; it really is a magnificent support system for anyone who needs some independent voices when things are going belly-up. The beauty is that when it works like that, I think that everyone gains and it really is great to hear that you are safely up on your life-raft and can see land in the distance. \o/

I must begin treating ptm like he's a fully functioning mature and adult human being even though we all know the reality.

Yes, sounds like you're really starting to detatch and get to the stage where you can get through the mechanics of sorting out the finances without him hurting you to any significant degree. ( I do have to agree about the laziness/incompetence about sorting out his admin. If its not causing him problems, he's got no real need to do anything).

Its interesting about the OWs situation, sounds as though money is not an issue and perhaps that create a dynamic in his new relationship which he is not prepared for. Being free of money worries doesn't necessarily make people happy. It just gives you a different set of problems. He's a fool if he thinks he's landed on his feet.

I was sad to hear about how much your DD is hurting. Don't you wish that people who cause that kind of hurt could feel that pain too. In my experience they have already washed their hands of the situation and are in a space where everyone else is to blame and their hurt is more/bigger/more painful. Thank goodness you can help her through this, your growing strength will give her courage to face whats happening.

And - have a great weekend!

That's a great last post! I think its deeply important to know where you want to be and focus on getting there...bit by tiny bit. The sad truth is that he (like the vast majority of the scumbags) are not totally evil, they have lovely qualities too which is why you married him in the first place. That only complicates the picking through all the postering, deceit, manipulation etc. It is good to use the anger as an armour for as long as you need it but it is healthy to let go of it when you are ready to move on.

I think that's the best thing to do with the parcel too. Just don't engage...it could be game playing or just that he forgot to change his amazon details...best not to go there.

I don't know much about mediation (wasn't around in my time) but personally I would go for the route that cuts you free in the shortest possible time

Its an emotional rollercoaster, isn't it!!!

Morning - did you get any sleep?

I don't think you look ungrateful, not at all - but I'm worried I/we have made you angry & upset :( That's the last thing I/we want.

When I said that poor woman does not have the nest of vipers on her side - you do!! it was totally in regard to that woman in her 60's needing therapy to get over her divorce many years previously. We wont let you, let this, wreck the rest of your life x It had nothing to do with thinking you had lost the will to fight x

I'm sorry if I/we have been pushing going to court too hard. I really hope you can sort it out through mediation as it will save a lot of money. I'm just worried about what happens when he doesn't disclose everything and you find out more stuff afterwards (mainly more debt in your name). I just hoped if you went to court and he had to give a legal statement & financial declaration he might be more compelled to be honest. But as you say, it's a lot of money to do that.

(hugs)

To be honest, I think one of the reasons I am on this thread is that it is like the future me talking to the past me and being able to reassure me that it will be all ok.... does that actually make any sense??

Wisey, you express so very much of what I felt and I so much want to be a part of the thing that helps you realise that it will be ok...even if it does take a while getting there.

Chipping...I quite like the idea of being one of the vipers...sounds just like the chorus of voices passing comment on the action and offering support, that you get in ancient Greek plays

MigratingCoconutsViper - I had to read it three times, but once I got my head around it - it made sense & I agree with your second paragraph too. It's hard in a way because it makes you think about things you've put in the past and it takes you back to how you felt at the time and you just want to reassure Wisey (& others) that you do get past that stage - that it wont always be so raw and so so hard/upsetting/scary :( It does get better.