Hello from a child-free girl...

[goldilockz]

Hi everyone,

I hope you don't mind me becoming a member of your forums, I must admit I'm rather nervous to be doing so and hope you'll have the patience to read my post through to the end. Briefly, I'm a 26 year old from Scotland who has no children and doesn't want any children (please don't let this put you off!) This was never an issue for me until my long-term boyfriend and I started discussing having children last year. He thinks he wants children while I have never experienced the elusive maternal urge or ticking of the biological clock. While I initially thought that adopting would be a reasonable compromise, I soon came to my senses and realised that a person should not be a compromise and that someone who doesn't want children shouldn't have them when her only reason for doing so would be to maintain her relationship. I discussed this with a few friends, some of whome knew where I was coming from, others who were a bit less accepting of the fact I'm unlikely to change my mind, saying that I've been given a womb for a reason, that my clock will start ticking etc. While I acknowledge that this is a possibility, I know that it's highly unlikely.

My reason for posting is that, since that 'chat' with my boyfriend which obviously caused us both a lot of distress as, lets face it, disagreeing about having children is a deal-breaker, I have become more and more aware of my 'child-free' status and ever more aware of the divisions between women who don't have or want children and women that do. This, admittedly, is something that concerns me. I don't like the idea of going through life judging other people because their decision differs from mine, nor do I want to be defensive and, while I have found websites such as thechildfreelife.com to be helpful, I also think they make one identify more with a child-free persona and being child-free is only a small part of who I am. My reasons for joining this forum is to integrate myself more with people who are not child-free, hopefully make a few friends and perhaps learn something from one another. I don't want to go through life being defensive about not having children or feel I have to justify my choice. I don't want to be labelled as being 'child-free' or the like, but I have noticed that this is something I identify myself with more and more and this upsets me. OK, enough of my waffling. I hope what I've said has made some sense and that I've not offended anyone in the process, as that is completely the opposite of why I'm here. I'm shaking as I write this because I'm very aware of the disparity between women who have children and those who don't and am envisaging a backlash! I hope that doesn't happen and I'm looking forward to your replies.

Goldi xx

Oh I have just read through the posts..lol...but I do still find that comment rather strange...hey ho!

Hello everyone,

My intention was not to befriend the childed as some people have mentioned, but to get the perspective of people who have children as I have no childed people in my life and was aware I was becoming increasing entrenched with the 'childfree' label. I realise that this post has gone in a different direction than intended and I may have offended some people in the process for which I am truly sorry. My intention was not to have a go at your lifestyle or judge your choice to have children. Frankly, I care as much about your decision to have children than you care about mine not to. I'm sorry that this post has caused animosity and that some people have chosen to call people on the childfree life forum 'weird' or that they need to get a life. I personally disagree and, just like this forum, that one is governed by rules that prevents anything nasty being said about childed people and the majority of discussions on the board are centred around issues unrelated to being childfree. Anyway, I hope you'll accept my apologies and not judge people who don't have children based on my rant about bingoes.
Due to this thread getting a little out of hand, I have requested it be deleted and the mumsnet moderators have kindly agreed.
Best wishes to you all and apologies again,
Goldi.

P.S. PosieParker, you were removed from the childfree life site for no reason other than you were clearly searching through my previous posts and making insensitive comments about me and my relationship, which the moderators do not condone. You can call the people that use that forum 'weird' all you like but your behaviour was uncalled for.

I dont think your post caused animosity...just bemusement and a few sniggers.

"childed people", lmao

for the love of God, don't reproduce

I only use this term as it's one I've read on this site. I should have used 'parents', sorry.

Goldilockz, I think what most people find "weird" is the need for people to justify themselves in this way at all. Having quotes to be proud of such as " I'm going to cut up that kid with a rusty butter knife" and " I don't like kids they are too chewy" with pictures of distressed babies in clamps is normal??? Anyone stupid can have a kid, you deserve an award for not having one? Are these kind comments.

Where can you see the same level of vindictiveness on Mumsnet towards people who don't want kids? Do we have special names for people without children? ( what the hell is childed anyway, what the hell is wrong with parent or mother fcs). Do we make fun of people without kids posting hysterical things their cats did on Facebook. No, it is each to his own and all life is important and valued to the majority of people on here.

Plus your post was titled about wanting to scream and you implied that your replies were vindictive which they clearly were not. But we are actually a nice bunch on here, and I believe the mumsnet posters on your website were so balanced that some of the Child free life posters were agreeing with them.

And yes the bingo remarks may be annoying, but it happens in life, it happened to me. I was told at 28 I couldn't have kids. Up until that point I never wanted them. When I found out, I thought, oh well that is life, don't know if I am missing out as I don't have the experience. I looked forward to a life of expensive luxurious holidays and bought myself a sportscar. I met a man who had a grown up family, and was happy that he would never make those demands on our relationship. Then bang - a wild holiday to Thailand and I'm up the duff. Total shock.

And now... I have a fantastic career, a great kid, who isn't naughty, is very well behaved, I still have luxurious expensive holidays and I still have the sports car, I can't sell it now as DS loves it so much he won't let me. I have walked in your shoes, and I was never judged. Just as I don't judged the " unchilded" or whatever you want brand people as. Infact my friends are half and half I would say. My last post was completely tongue in cheek.

Yes it is all about choice, and you have made your decision, so go and get sterilized or whatever you want to do it us up to you really.

I feel one poster made an important point though - with your extra spending power, do make sure you are covered for your old age, as I am sure you wouldn't want to be a burden on anyone else's children, or will want to be nursed by anyone who had previously been a child. That sounds like an increasingly difficult proposition to me, when do the members of the forum stop disliking children? Is there a point at which they stop being ignored and are integrated into the society of the child free? Is it 18 years of age? I find it all rather confusing.

I find the point of view on the majority of those threads very narrow minded, and I am not sure what the end result will be. I have never felt brainwashed to think in a particular way on mumsnet I have to say.

Binfullofmaggotsonthe45,

I don't condone those quotes or pictures and frankly, find them disturbing myself. I think they apply to a minority of people that use that site though. I realise that through my use of 'CF' forums I have become less tolerant of people with children and this is something that upsets me because I consider myself a compassionate and kind person and am sorry if I have come across otherwise. It's not something I have ever given much thought to until I was forced to think about it because my partner may want children. I don't like the labels 'childfree' or 'childed' or whatever, I didn't mean to use the word childed with any negative feeling behind it. I think many members of the CF forums like children, I've come across only a few who don't. Many of them work with children but don't want their own. My intention was to try and gain a little perspective from parents and, given the first couple of posts I received and the fact I hadn't had much sleep for a while, I overreacted and wrote a regrettably hostile post on the CF forum. I guess I played my own part in widening the gap between people with children and people without in that case and for that I am sorry. I have made a conscious decision not to spend any more time on so-called childfree forums as I realise that the ranting and raving is getting to me. I am glad things have worked out well for you.

You haven't played a part in widening any gap, most people on here are surprised people even think there is one.

Just as there are pricks without kids, there are equal pricks with kids! I don't expect people to place my son on a pedestal, make him guest of honour at a wedding or think he is the next Dougie Howser! Some people with kids really do, I have some shocking friends that allow their kids to be complete pita's with the shrug " oh they are just kids doing what kids do...", expect all the holiday priorities around Christmas because "they have kids" (yet as a single woman I was the one expected to drive up and down the country and actually needed the holiday for that!)

I just find that site a bit too imbalanced.

Just forget what you do or don't have, and explore some threads. A lot of people on here don't have kids. The majority of people on some threads don't even talk about their kids. And thank fuck you don't get judged on here for that, or drinking wine, or talking about blue waffles or dogging or anything else.

The range of subjects is huge, and balanced and doesn't involve being well, sneery quite frankly.

Basically don't give yourself a title that doesn't really matter to the people outside of that thread. Because it really doesn't matter. I never introduced myself as "bin full the barren (her insides are all wrong)", I was and still am just Binfull the Welsh bint with killer tits!

I agree with you, that ignorant people are ignorant people whether or not they have children. When I encouraged my boyfriend to visit that site, he was pretty alarmed at how negative people on it were and encouraged me to cancel my membership. I didn't because I was intriged about the whole cf lifestyle which I had unconsciously subscribed to. Since joining that site, I have noticed changes in me which I hope will reverse now that I am cancelling my membership because I don't want to be one of those people you've described who are bitter and I realise that I am increasingly becoming one. While last year I had a great time with my 3 cousins, who are all under 7, this year I viewed them as cramping my style, which is completely not like me. I know that I am very impressionable and so I'm sensitive to those negative posts, so it's best I don't read them at all. I don't want to see myself as CF anymore, not because I want to have children, but because I no longer want to identify myself with someone who is intolerant of other people. I know this thread has not done me any favours though! Thanks for understanding.

Attention whore 4 lyfe.

Charming.

No more or less charming than your tiresome, adolescent attempts to curry favour with the childfree clan by coming here to bait people into "bingoing" you i.e. giving you their (asked for) opionions, purely so you could subsequently go and post your tale of woe on CFL.

Have you joined Livejournal yet? If not, honestly you should. There are loads of CF communities there that you can join and cry to. They'd welcome you with open arms. And people like you are GOLD to communities like childfree_suck. Do it!

I've apologised for my mistake which I regret and have expressed in my last post that I no longer wish to be part of such communities. I'm sorry I'm not as perfect as you clearly are.

Steps ...what can I say...you aren't doing mumsnet any favours by being like this either, you have to rise above it all.

Op I don't know if you are being genuine or not, I never will as this is the tinternet, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think you were shocked that you were found out on the other site (we mums not so hormonally brain challenged after all ) but you came back with what seems like an attempt to make amends in your later postings.

And we can always check the other threads so I imagine you are pretty transparent in your views ATM.

If you genuinely have an issue with your partner and your life decisions then I would post in relationships.

If you have followed the press lately you will know mumsnet has featured in some high profile reports. This has caused an influx of trolling and journalist fake posts etc. So regular mners are a bit distrustful and upset at the mo tbh.

It wasn't a mistake though, was it? It was calculated. And sorry, but it is completely implausible that it had thus far escaped your notice that there are some thoroughly moronic elements to the childfree movement - elements which you suddenly want to distance yourself from.

And where did I say, explicitly or implicitly, that I was perfect?

I was with you until I went to childfree life.

Comments like: "Generally speaking, there are very few people I feel really should have children, if any." and "I have trouble getting excited for my friends who get pregnant. I know that they are happy, but I can't help but focus on all the stuff they are going to be sacrificing." and "I think that very few people are cut out to have children" are incredibly smug and rude. It's like the SAHM vs WM debate. Make the choice that is best for you, and stay out of everyone else's. I'm a mother. I adore my son and plan to have more children. I also plan on quitting my job and being a SAHM. I don't pretend that this makes me better than anyone else, but I'll be damned if it makes me worse. It's simply my choice, and what works best for my family and for me, with my ambitions and personality at this time. I have no problem with people choosing not to have children, but I do have a problem with anyone who assumes that their life choices are right for everyone.

Dont call yourself goldilockz if you aren't going to have three little bears

choose another name.

MadamNonFartyArse or something like that, which goes with the pelvic-floor-intact state of being CF

I had a wander over to that site and I remember the other, foul site when they came over here for a row a while back. So many bitter, aggressive, defensive people. A shame they feel they have to define themselves by what they don't have. I don't know anyone in RL like that and I know far more people without children than with; they just get on with their lives same as anyone else. It's a non issue.

Goldilockz, stick around, but try listening instead of talking for a while.

If I'm reading your OP charitably, you were worried that your membership of CFL was making you prone to the sort of bitter, negative attitudes that reflect the worst of that self-identified group, and you were seeking to restore balance by joining a parenting forum.

I think a lot of the things in your OP that bemused people came from the skewed perspective that being involved in that community has given you. I think that's a really common side effect of being involved in a particular community, especially one who sees themselves as marginalised, and who have special language and norms. It's not quite the same, but I spend a lot of time on feminist blogs and fora, and when I leave those spaces I forget that the things I/we take for granted aren't widely accepted; so I leap on a poor unsuspecting Facebook friend crowing 'confirmation bias' or whatever.

Anyway, the crux of the matter is, if you want to be part of an online forum not dedicated to child-free living, and which represents a huge number of opinionated, clever individuals with a wide range of interests, hobbies and talents, most of whom also happen to have children and are happy about that - stick around.

But if you want to learn, specifically, as you said in your OP - the way you learn is to listen, not to talk.

Sorry, what I meant in para 3 was - you talked a lot about the divide between CF and parents, envisaging a backlash, hoping you could heal the rifts...and we were all "huh" because generally, the only people from whom we (the monolith that is Parents) feel divided are people who call us and our children vile names. I think this idea of a divide is a construct of the CF community.

Goldilocz you should stop labelling your self childfree (even if you are so by choice), it is a pointless label. I am sure there are so many other aspects of your personality. I think choosing such labels, and obsessing so much over this chosen state of your life, like I understand some on that forum do, is doing you no favour. In fact, to most people it is quite perplexing. Like somebody else more eloquently pointed out, we did not know there was such a divide until you pointed one out. I think this big divide is emphasized, or even created, by such forums. At the end of the day, we are just people. Dont label yourself through your nondesire to have kids. I dont label myself "veteran motorbike free". It makes it seem I have some weird agenda.

Hi everyone,

Well, I am genuine I can tell you that much. I genuinely realise what I've done and spent the whole day yesterday ruminating over it. I wouldn't continue posting here if I wasn't concerned about my actions which, I can assure you, were in no way calculated but were quite obviously very stupid. We all make mistakes and I will definitely learn from this one. I've said my goodbyes on the childfree site and don't intend on posting on it again. I agree that there are a lot of defensive people and also see that 'they feel they have to define themselves by what they don't have'.

I'm not going to acknowledge any of the recent negative posts because I've apologised and there's not much more I can do, but there are some things that struck me about other posts.

UnlikelyAmazonian: I have the name goldilockz due to my love of porridge. I laughed at your name suggestions but again, don't want to identify myself as being in any way 'child free'.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell: I agree. I'll be shutting up soon, I promise! I understand that the 'rift' between CF and parents was a construct of the CF forum which doesn't exist in real life. As I've previously said, I never had any problems with parents or children but since I've been reading the complaining, negative posts, it's made me think that parents have something against people who don't have children. My problem was that I was viewing it all from one perspective and don't have anyone with children in my day to day life to disconfirm this assumption, which is why I initially came over here. I think the recent posts (give or take a couple) have shown me that you're accepting, decent people and the imagined rift was all in my head.

QuintessentialShadows: I completely intend to stop labelling myself because, like you said, this label isn't doing me any favours and is making me identify and obsess over something that I feel I have to defend or show I'm 'proud of'. My partner hates when I talk about being 'child free' because it says it pushes him in the opposite direction due to my defensiveness. I was totally unaware of how negative I'd become until this whole thing kicked off and instead of staying away from the CF forums, whenever I felt negative about it, I'd go on them which would only fuel the fire. I really appreciate your understanding.

Hell, I was child free until 29 and gave no thought to it whatsoever. I hadn't realised there was a whole scene to be part of, a persona I could have taken on. Pity. Is there really a gap? How odd people think like that. I have friends with and without children, those who want them, those who can't think of anything worse, those putting off for a few yrs, those desperately ttc, those who have adopted. We're friends for a million different reasons, our attitude towards parenthood isn't one of them. I find those who obsess either way a little odd to be frank.

And for what it's worth, I am highly educated and successful despite having a child...gasp. My mother was successful in her own right, and I respect her....I find it sad that you obviously don't respect your's...all because she had you.

Oh, and I breastfeed in public.

Frankly I'm amazed there is so much controversy to be had about something so mundane.

I really hope this has been a turning point for you Goldi. The amateur psychologist in me says that you protest too much and are too afraid to relax with your definition just in case the desire creeps up on you. I may be wrong, but perhaps if you relax about it you will find your real feelings, which may well be never to have children. Defining yourself this way may make you look very foolish if you ever change your mind.

There's no agenda here, on MN, we're all trying to lead the happiest life we can.

What an odd post.

Everyone starts off "child free".
It's best if partners agree whether they want to have kids or not.

If one does, and one doesn't... you disagree on a key life issue, and need to consider your future together.

Taking tales off mumsnet to another forum is very definite trollish behaviour.

Having said that some posters here are a bit keen to rip new posters to shreds for being new, so just come back another day.