HUSBAND LEFT AFTER AN AFFAIR III - AM MOVING ON WITHOUT HIM

[solost]

My husband left me in mid-August when I found out he was having an affair. My original thread (husband had an affair and I want him back) detailed the fact that I felt he had made a mistake and asked for advice on how to get him to see sense and come back to me and our 3 DCs. Four months on, he still hasn't returned and I am re-buildling my life without him. That thread is now full. This is the continuation. Thanks to all of you for your support.

Solo

Your husband is still trying to keep you on a hook isn't he! Telling you he is starting to feel ashamed and embarrassed. Why did he feel the need to tell you? What did he get out of telling you? He got you thinking again that there is a teeny tiny little chance the the man you loved all those years is still in there.

Carry on with the detaching. That last post of yours feels really different to me in your attitude towards him. I don't know if it is my imagination but you come across as if you are finally not falling for these little comments. Fantastic!

He actions show different. He is still going home to her every night and sleeping in her bed with her.

Those actions again which show more than his words.

Oh these ladies' advice here is really rocking! Everything being said about his intentions and actions re. mentioning the book are absolutely spot on.

The time he should be worrying about involving you in discussions such as his guilt and reading self-help books would only be AFTER he'd had enough of a "revelation" as to finally bin the BB relationship, make separate living arrangements whilst continuing with the children's arrangements, worked out lots of things for himself and then and only then would he be in any position where he could even approach a conversation along the lines that he has been attempting.

Until such time he's weighing up things as to how they may or may not suit him. I'd bet he'd expect to jump out of her bed straight into yours and that you'd be grateful. He doesn't realise how much of a greater view you've now taken of the whole relationship over the years and whether or not you'd put up with his great sense of entitlement still.

Until then see it for what it is. Him testing the water; him playing his games. I love what someone above said about currently it would just enable him to have more technical terms with which to play games with your emotions and mind.

Remember you don't have to believe that he is really aware of these intentions of how to control you. You do need to remember it is clearly a pattern of behaviour that has become a habit for the two of you over the years though. He's certainly noticed he'll get what he wants with this type of behaviour and that you have a tendency to think well of people (a good thing obviously but can be a wasted gift sometimes unfortunately!)

Please remember his behaviour at Christmas - he really is prepared to go to extremes to play with you and to appeal to your kind disposition.

Again that mantra: "actions speak louder than words" (think of Dorothy in Wizard of OZ - reciting "no place like home" and perhaps take her trick by clicking your shoes!)

Mantra going round your head please whenever the H's mouth is moving!

Not sure whether you are coming back to this thread Solost and therefore hesitated from posting. However, I agree with everyone else and in answer to your question, yes they are more mind games.

As if he needs a therapist to work out why he had an affair....

What I suspect he means is that he wonders whether it might be helpful to find someone who can give him excuses for his behaviour, or put the blame on his childhood, or mid-life, or anything else that evades his own personal responsibility.

And yes, of course if he wanted to read about this, like most sane people he would source his own reading material. In reality he's got no intention of reading some uncomfortable truths, but he would like to pretend to you that he is troubled and ashamed and willing to learn from his mistakes.

I expect he is still with the OW though, still telling her she is the love of his life, so nothing in practice changes.

Exactly, everyone. Therapy to make him feel better about what he's doing. Not to help him stop doing it. An interesting book to talk to the (ex) wife about why he did what he did, so that she can continue to be understanding. Not so that he can see the trap he fell into, get out of it, and avoid falling into a similar one ever again. Because to him it isn't a trap to be got out of, it's his new life. These uncomfortable feelings are inconvenient, nothing more, and he'd rather be rid of them as long as he doesn't have to give anything up in the process. Although as kettlecrisps rightly says he no doubt expects he could jump out of BB's bed and into yours if he wanted to, as she also points out there's no sign of the jumping out of her bed bit happening any time soon.

To paraphrase Saint Lundy of Bancroft, a cheater who has standard therapy is likely to come out of it a well-adjusted cheater.

Solost - I do hope you come back - even if you did lend him the book, it doesn't matter. It just means that you must even less trust anything he says because he probably read it in the book.

Hope you're ok...

THUMB, Im back, its so damn addictive Mumsnet

We are all OK, just getting on with life really. H starts his new job on Monday and is away all week so I can perfect the art of detaching. The DC's are quite sad and so is H, they are rarely apart for so long. But I am quite welcoming it tbh!

ANNIE: Not sure he will follow the therapy through, it could be just one of his musings! But I see what you mean.

WWIFN: Please keep posting, I am popping in from time to time, just wanted to give Sufficient some space to post - her needs are far greater than mine at this time.

He is still with BB of course, doesnt really seem happy at the moment but thats not my concern any more is it? To be fair, H has never blamed anyone but himself for his affair, he has always said it was nothing to do with me, he considered he had a 'perfect life' with us and never considered BB to blame in any way either?

He hasnt mentioned the book since, I will let him source his own as you suggested.

KETTLECRISPS: I have adopted your mantra 'actions speak louder than words' that is so true. Not sure about you comments about him controlling me in our marriage, certainly I never felt controlled tbh, I thought we had a balanced relationship and even now looking back, I can't see any controlling characteristics? Thats why his behaviour at Xmas was so out of character although I do remember what he did.

XALES: Thanks

LMHF: Your post made me smile (not sure it was meant to!) I do see where you are coming from. Thanks x

t himself for his affair, he has always said it was nothing to do with me, he considered he had a 'perfect life' with us

This whole line and the thing about him not blaming BB either - my friend's cheating H did this. Said the SAME things and always tried to make her see what a "good" person he was... Full if "self loathing"...etc. It is now so laughable.
He did go to therapy as well and stuck with it for a while. He would draw her in with... "my therapist said ... Xyz... I am a terrible person/was I really like that?" etc.
He was trying to justify his behaviour in some way ... Though he'll said it was to "help" him "understand himself" and he was discovering himself...blah blah blah. She can now see him for who he is and what he has done. Thank goodness.

I think, and I may be wrong, but he's asking about the book, makin it seem to others including you that he isn't happy with BB, suing he needs counselling, trying to show what a super dad he can be...etc. Because he KNOWS what he did is wrong and absolutely terrible. But he can't bear for people to think of him in that way. So he tries desperately to slip into the "poor me" role whenever possible (yes even the "it's all my fault" crap... Ive seen children say this when they are about to be told off... to try to gain sympathy desperately wanting
to hear "no it's not all your fault").
He's hoping all of these things will cancel out his betrayal and lying... His infidelity!
Please others correct me if I'm wrong

• making
• saying Arghhh iPhone!

Solost I've just got to remind you of an earlier couple of posts of mine. I said that you wouldn't have noticed his controlling tendencies when you were together because his objectives were the same as yours. I also summised that as you're evidently an easygoing person, perhaps his will would prevail in certain key decisions? So perhaps you backed down on things for an easy life?

However, I suggested that if you'd ever had the opportunity to speak to people whose objectives were different to his (work colleagues, siblings, friends, parents) they might be able to give you examples of how manipulative he was - and how he shirked responsibility and let others take the fall.

I've also reminded you before that someone saying they take complete responsibility is not the same as actually doing so. Hence although he claims not to blame you, if you were a fly on the wall in his current residence, you would hear differently and you would certainly have heard negative things about you coming out of his mouth during the affair. Just as you have persistently heard negative things about the OW from him ever since. He's been trying to blame her for loads of things; asking him to come home early, booking a hotel on the night of the concert, drinking and sleeping too much, getting the kids presents, not to mention how apparently she pursued the affair single-handedly.

That's not taking responsibility, it's evading it.

Now that his objectives are no longer the same as yours, his need to manipulate you is strong. I agree that this "sackcloth and ashes" act is just another example of it. But if he's got any regrets, it will be self-pity and at worst, his apparent guilt and shame will be entirely feigned, just like the uncorroborated flat-smashing "nervous breakdown", created entirely to get out of facing his children and telling them the truth.

WWIFN: Hi, thanks for responding. I have thought a lot about what you say. Regarding my easygoingness??, it is true I am an easy-going person but regarding my marriage, it was me rather than H that made most of the key decisions tbh. I was thinking about that and wondered whether that was one of the reasons WHY H had his affair with BB?

He has admitted to me that when they first met he saw her as a 'lost soul' who needed someone to look after her (romantic idiot!) and even before he felt a sexual attraction towards her he felt a need to 'protect' her? Maybe it was because I was so strong and capable that he felt the need to 'look after' someone else? Probably a load of b**cks but do you see where I'm coming from?

I don't think he ever shirked responsibility either, I do recall certain situations especially at work where he took the blame for situations to shield others when it would have been easier to step back and let them take the blame.

I understand exactly what you say about his taking responsibility for the affair. Did I tell you that I once asked him why he only said negative things about BB to him? His response was he didn't want to hurt me by going on about how fantastic she is [sceptical]

I do think he does have genuine regrets though, maybe not about the affair but about the hurt he caused. I think he thought that when he told me, I would throw him out, hate his guts, get on with my life and he would live happily ever after. He really didn't think about us (me & DC's) at all. I can now see how detatched he was in the the weeks/months before he left.

He came round to see the DC's this evening as he starts his new job tommorrow and is away for the whole week. The DCs won't see him again until Saturday. Middle DD (who has been completely indifferent about his affair and him leaving) broke down as he left and cried for 2 hours. She said she missed him and that him being here yesterday and then again today reminded her of how happy we all were as a family before he left I just comforted her and told her that we both loved her and that she could talk to us about anything whenever she felt she needed to. Didnt know what else to say really.

solost that's so sad... If it were me, I would be so utterly FURIOUS with him for the hell he's put you and those poor children through.

Whenever you feel yourself falling for his sob stories, how much he regrets everything, how he wants to get help to "understand" himself, THINK ABOUT YOUR DAUGHTER'S FACE. Think about the pain she's in who it is who is causing her that pain.

I know I don't post a lot, but I've followed your story from the beginning, so I hope you don't think I'm overstepping the mark, but... Your last few posts have been defending your H quite a lot, and I hope this doesn't mean that you are being taken in my his campaign for the sympathy vote. Because that's what it is. "I'm going to start therapy to understand why I'm so horrible"; "please let me borrow that book so I can understand how I've hurt you". It's all hokum designed to make you think that he's changing.

If he really was changing, though, he'd not be living with the OW. I know I'm repeating what a lot of other (much wiser) posters have already said, but I don't think you can hear it enough times...

Hope your DD is okay and feeling better after letting some of her emotions out.

Oh Solost I wish I could get through to you...

I don't doubt you were and are a strong competent woman; one of the copers in life. Someone who didn't need rescuing every time something went wrong, the sort of person all the other school Mums would come to in a crisis. It's astonishing how many strong, competent women get shafted by sexist idiots who like women to be pathetic and defenceless though, as long as that's combined with simpering adoration, sexual flattery and desire.

Regarding you making the decisions, what exactly do you mean? Whose decision was it that you would be the SAHP and he would have the career? How much your mortgage would be? Where you would live?

How would he have responded for example if you had said that you wanted you both to work part-time and co-parent, or that you wanted to retrain for a career and that would mean he'd have to change his working hours and responsibilities? If you'd said that you weren't happy about his travelling away for work and wanted it to stop? If you'd said that you were developing an interest in feminist politics and wanted to get active in that? Tell me how he would have reacted to any of that?

I'm sure you'll say that you didn't want any of those things and I'll ask you whether any of those were really your choices, or whether you knew that to make others would cause a huge problem...

He didn't have to slate the OW to realise the objective of not hurting you, you know! He should have said nothing at all about her, good or bad.

If you can recall him taking responsibility for others' mistakes, do you mean his staff's mistakes? That's being a manager and being accountable and nothing else. I wouldn't expect you to necessarily know about examples of when I bet he has shafted his peer colleagues, or competitors though. I think his brother's testimony would be quite revealing about this. I bet he can recall examples of when he was scapegoated for something your H had done...

And now for the really important stuff and your poor DD. What you describe is precisely what we have been warning against for months. She has told you what we'd feared would happen and I admire you for posting it on here. She is saying that seeing you both in the family home over the past 2 days and having to cope with his departure again is heartbreaking.

Please Solost for the sake of your DCs stop him coming to the house and stop these family occasions. They are only causing more confusion, hurt and disappointment. It is precisely because there are no boundaries that this is happening.

I have to agree with WWIFN about the boundaries, solost. You have to stop letting him come and play happy families in your home, it just sets your DC back in their ability to come to terms with what your H has done to the family.

Never mind what he wants; never mind what you want - you have to do what is the right thing for your children's happiness and sanity. They need stability - not to have the floor moving under their feet all the time.

Re. BB: Ignore the whole thing! ignore whatever your H says about her, and FGS STOP ASKING! You are never going to get an answer you actually want to hear, so stop putting yourself through it. It's like some bizarre kind of self-flagellation!

Re. the "knight in shining armour" aspect - this pisses me off more than anything. IF men want some ditzy bimbo who can't manage to start her own car without a manual, then they should have started off with one, not got together with a strong capable woman who actually runs the home and family without needing her hand held every step of the way. This happened to my friend - super-organised, strong capable woman - her H felt "emasculated" so had an affair with some rescuee - friend found out when they were due to be moving out of a house that his parents owned into their own. He said he wasn't coming too (nice) because of this woman who "needed" him . That lasted about 8w.

Anyway - it STILL really pisses me off - if these men want to be rescuers then let them change jobs! Go and be a professional rescuer, stop crapping all over your family just because so far you've led a fairly well-kept and orderly, selfish life. Fireman, ambulance person, nurse, doctor, vet - social worker, foster carer, volunteer helper for various charitable organisations, UK and overseas. Don't use it as some sort of bollocks excuse to have a shag with someone who isn't your wife!!

NOWAYNOHOW: Thank you, she is a lot calmer now.

WWIFN: It really was MY decision to be a SAHM, truely. H would have had not problem if I had wanted to work. I have always believed - even before I had children than it was MY job to care for them (although I have no issue with anyone who wishes to work either) and really couldnt contemplate handing them to someone else whilst returning to some souless 'career'.

To give you a bit of backstory, which may help you understand me a bit better?!, I was really bright at school (if I say so myself and my parents were encouraged to send my to a private secondary school (as the local comp was crap!) on a scholarship/bursary thing. But I didnt want to go. I lost my way a bit a secondary school, wrong crowd, didn't work hard, became the class clown etc, left as soon as I could and took a series of clerical jobs. I never wanted to go to University or College or continue my education in any way and H (who did all that) has always encouraged me to, telling me I was too good for the jobs I had that I could do so much better. However, when I had the DC's I felt I had found my vocation. I chose the house and sorted the mortgage by the way - H is pretty crap with money!

So in a nutshell, I realise I have underachieved all my life probably, and the affair has probably been a catalyst to truely understanding that. However, until now I really had no issue with it at all. Now I am alone however, I am looking into furthering my education but my problem is what it has always been, I don't hanker after any particular career - I haven't a clue what to do!

H would loved to be a stay at home day you know, he often said he wished I had a career so he could stay and look after the DC's instead of me and I do believe he meant it. He would have had no issue whatsoever with any of the things you mentioned and hated working away but we needed the money. The only thing he would have had an issue with would be the feminist politics!!!

Regarding him taking responsibility for others mistakes, yes when he was a manager, and of course it was his responsibility. But a little of H's backstory too, he trained as a mechanical engineer, got into design and did very well, then the engineering sector collapsed round here, the company he worked for went bust and he was unable to get another job doing the same thing (unless he lived abroad). He took a job on the shop floor of a printing company - not having any experience in that industry, then working his way up to a management role and the times I remember him taking responsibility for others was mainly from his 'shop floor' days - he was the union rep there too (which didn't really stand him in good stead with the management he would eventually become).

Your point about his brother is interesting and I will ask him about it. They have never really been close, his younger brother was a bit of a lost cause when he was younger, he bounced from career to career, married quickly - divorceed after 6 months, got into debt - needed bailing out and yet is the 'golden boy' in his parents eyes. I think it was because H did all the 'expected' things, got educated, got a good job, found a 'nice' girl etc. However, he has since settled down and since having his son has turned his life around.

And finally, regarding H coming to the family home. I do realise that affects the DC's, and I am trying to keep it to a minimum. H is not here very often now, he picks up the DC's and drops them off and stays for the minimum amount of time. However, this weekend I had to work, starting at 6am on Saturday and H came over to take care of them, so yes he was here when the woke and did their breakfasts etc before taking DS to football and the girls out. And last night he stayed for an hour as we were out for the day and didnt get back until late, but they really wanted to see each other - this is so difficult as I don't want to stop that or appear as if I am trying to prevent their relationship especially from the DC's side if you see what I mean?

H is now away until Saturday, so I can re-establish our routine.

Stay at home Dad

THUMBWITCH: Thanks, I agree. And I see the problem with H coming to our home. However, as I mentioned in my post to WWIFN it is difficult sometimes. Like Saturday, H was the only person who could look after the DCs for me as I had to work, the only alternative would be for me to get them up at 5.30am and take them to work with me. And last night, they really wanted to see each other but as we had been out for the day and didnt return until after 700pm, H only had an hour with them and as it was late I let him see them here (although I stepped upstairs for an hour 'to put the ironing away'!).

Not sure H would want to be a full time rescuer! Think he's quite content to do it on a 'part time basis' . But there is something there I think, he has always been a sucker for a 'lost cause' male or female!

ok...
I'm not going to say much because you aren't in a place to hear it at the moment.

But I will say this.

If he wanted to see the dc more, he could leave BB and move closer to where you live so that this is more possible (when he's not travelling for his new job). But, he's still with BB. He may well regret it, he may well have been a "good person" before having an affair and leaving his wife and children, but he's still with BB. It can't be that hard to just leave her, can it? He packed up and left you and dc pretty quickly. So you know he's capable.

I would love to hear BB's opinion on all this! I know/suspect he is feeding her tales of your dependancy, Solo, but really, is she dim? What, in has she settled for! What must her friends and family think of her situation!?

Why would he have had a problem with the feminist politics Solost?

You see, I find this fascinating. We still live in a society where the vast majority of primary carers are women. While I agree that lots of men would prefer to share the burden of paid work or become the primary carers, your H has never come across to me through these pages, as one of them.

I also think these things are easy to say when he knew that's not what you wanted and still have this sense that if it had compelled him to make a fair few personal sacrifices so that you could retrain, he wouldn't have been at all comfortable with you out-earning him or gaining greater status than him, in the workplace. If you had, I suspect he would have referred to you as "bolshy" just like he did the OW, because these terms are often used by men about career women and are a put-down that they would never attribute to men.

As it was, because you were doing both what he truly wanted and accorded with his view of male and female roles - and you wanted the same, there was no need to manipulate you and no reason for discord. I think if he had truly wanted to be a SAHP, he would have manipulated you for all he was worth.

I think it's interesting how your H was the golden child and his brother, the family scapegoat. That was also the impression I had, without you ever having told us that. Both roles are difficult and confining in families, but the golden child will very often play up to that role and reinforce the scapegoat's fecklessness, to keep basking in his parents' approval. And in later adulthood, this role can become so tiresome that the golden child rebels, or in some cases it isn't as accentuated as before and the golden child misses the attention. I wonder whether there is any coincidence of timing between his brother settling down and finally gaining family approval - and your H's attention-seeking rebellion?

I think it is interesting that you felt you under-achieved and agree that this is a wonderful opportunity to achieve your potential now. Again, I wonder whether this willingness to play a supporting role and lack of ambition were traits that your H found very desirable, in the bigger story of Him?

Regarding the DCs, something needs to change here Solost and fast. He certainly should do his share of childcare, but not in your home. I think you're either going to have to get the DCs cared for by others while you work or drop them at your PILs and let your H care for them there, like I suggested yonks ago. It's his choice to live 100 miles away and he's trading on that, in this situation. Ideally, whatever arrangements you make should achieve two objectives: that he stops coming to your home full stop and secondly, that you don't see him.

How do you feel about not seeing him? How much of this is still about your need, as opposed to your DCs? How much of this is about you being soft with him and pandering to his needs, rather than the DCs?

The DCs might well want to see him, but I bet they don't care where that is. What is indisputable is that this situation is confusing for them and is causing your oldest DD especially, more upset.

There is of course another suggestion that I would understand you resisting, but give it some thought.
It's pretty evident that despite what your H says, this relationship with the OW is here to stay and there are no outward signs of it dissolving. You seem pretty sure that your H doesn't want her to meet the DCs now, but have you thought of calling his bluff again? Suggesting he moves with her nearer to the DCs so that he can take the kids to see his new home (and by default, meet her)? And has the DCs there in future? As a general rule, separating parents are encouraged to let the DCs see their new environments anyway, but your DCs have never seen where he lives and spends so much of his time.

If you consider all these options and can be sure that you are putting the DCs first and not you or him, I think you will achieve what's best for them. The current situation was never best for the DCs and was never best for you. It suits him though.

I also think you will completely wrong-foot him with these changes and it will be such a clear sign to him that you have moved on and have detached from him. But please, please do it for the DCs Solost because this situation is damaging them.

STAREXPAT: Thanks, but do you know I think I am in quite a good place at the moment - although its obviously not coming across well on here!!

Im not really bothered about H coming back now, I like my new 'single' life. The only having to think about myself and the DCs, being able to do/go/eat/watch whatever I want without having to consider someone else. I am not lonely at all (and I thought I would be) and I find I do enjoy my own company.

Regarding H and BB, he couldn't afford to move into his own place without having to cut some of his responsibilities here - after paying out mortgage/bills etc he is left with approx £500 a month in total to live on. However I do see your point, he did pack up and leave us pretty damn quickly, but now Im glad he did. I have read Sufficient/RBs threads and I think that if he had tried to stay and make 'us' work, he would have always hankered after BB, thought 'what if' and I really could not have handled that.

Its like Sufficient (or someone on her thread said), in 20 years time I don't want him to look back at last year (and his affair) with fond memories but to look back and think that 2010 was the year he lost his family/everything - do you see where Im coming from?

WWIFN: Thanks for posting, I will re-read and give some serious thought to your questions. I will come back to you later this evening.

Regarding your suggestion to him moving nearer to us. He has always said that would happen, and it has been me who has expressed concerns about this happening. In fact a couple of months ago, when they were house-hunting, they were actually looking at properties between where they are living now and us. However, that has now all be put on hold, according to H - he didn't feel it was 'right' that he couldn't contribute to her mortgage and that she would be buying a property to suit his needs rather than hers? They are no longer considering moving.

Thanks for taking time to respond, I really do appreciate you challenging my views/thoughts.

AISLINGORLA: Not dim, just madly in love I think. Not sure what her parents/friends think.

Yes, have a think about the questions and reflect, but don't forget the one about feminist politics, will you?

A propos of this, I wonder why he doesn't think it's "right" that the OW buys a house and contributes more financially? I don't suppose he would have felt the same about an OM doing the same, would he? Don't you think this is yet another example of his very rigid views about male and female roles in society?

Anyway, I'll look forward to your reflections about all the questions and whether you can suggest he moves nearer with her now.

Re: the £500 per month to live on, and not contributing to BB's mortgage etc (I think that is what you meant?). I'm astounded that he isn't contributing financially to their shared life together, and I'm astounded that she puts up with that. I guess that him having very little money to live on would actually keep him living with her (rent free) unless he knew with certainty that he could move straight back in to the family home - he really doesn't have any other options.

It's great that you sound so positive about your new single life.