Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

[OneMoreChap]

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

Why should the OP be a journalist?

well, I do have to say that although this post is a bit dramatic - the rape surveys done by the fawcett society use an even wider definition to achieve the '1 in 4' they quote - they use 'penetration without express permission given' to include fingers and tongues. I think this is unacceptable - telling women they are at dramatic risk of being raped (which sounds like being forced rather than just 'without verbal or written permission') increases fear and paranoia, and telling men that women get raped all the time means that it is seen as more normal behaviour - which too is unhelpful.

I can go around all my friends and none of them feel like they have been 'raped' but all of them, myself included, have been penetrated several hundreds of times without 'permission' being granted in this way. My first time being manually stimulated happened mid snog with a lovely progression from hand-in-knickers to a slight and shocking penetration without permission, and it was weird, but not a rape and I would feel terrible if those first fumblings led all the boys under counselling or whatever to feel that a) they were 'naturally' rapists and b) that i didn't feel it was normal and part of learning about sex - for the record when I did read the fawcett society stuff I did think 'oh my god I've been raped' but then I shook my head and realised how idiotic this was. not everyone will. i DO think there is a serious issue here.

One man I went out with during a more 'feministy' time in my life illustrated this to me admirably when he said 'how would you feel if I had called the police when you went down on me last night?' when I was spouting about how men 'raped without thinking' when tipsy. I was LIVID at the time, and tried to turn the whole party against him, but I saw his point when I went to bed with him again and he kept saying 'did you ask?, did you ask?' Again I wanted to punch him, but he did make a rather clumsy point.

dittany as the OP I was explicitly asking about is verbal consent required.

Nowhere in my OP did I say anything about if the other person in question wasn't interested. Later in thread I explicitly said I'd been told - and happily accepted - lack of interest.

Don't try and make this something it isn't. It is quite evidently not just me that is concerned with this. Take your hobbyhorse somewhere else.

Dittany, the OP on the other thread said she wasn't interested as he had a partner but then ended up in a kissing session that led to bad sex. What she said and did were too different things. Of course a nice man would have left and not tried to get physical but I think the OP knew he probably wasn't a nice man as he was propositioning other women.

Can I just add some more praise for HerBeX's post of 22:55:47 - absolutely spot on! Should be put on posters all over towns instead of the ones saying 'girls wear more clothes and don't drink'.

Although I have never been explicity asked I have explicitly told men that I won't be having sex with them. Even when later I kissed them back, touched them back I would and have expected them to respect the fact that I have already told them there will be no penatrative sex.

I found the OP irritatingly sarcastic. No you don't need a signed contract before penetration .

And I find that sarcasm entirely inappropriate in the context of the huge numbers of rape victims in this country and a reasonable attempt to protect them which says basically, check first that the woman wants to proceed.

That simple practice, if adhered to, would wipe out rape. Sorry but you don't get to have a sulky little sarcastic whinge about the inconvenience of that OneMoreChap.

But explicit consent doesn't have to mean 'verbal consent' - read HerBeX's post. Consent is fairly explicit if the woman is really getting into it, being an equal, active participant, then she is clearly giving consent. If she is just 'not saying no' and lying there just letting you fuck her, then she is probably not consenting and you ought to ask, tentatively and making it clear that it is ok for her to say 'no'. Otherwise you risk it being the case that she isn't actually happy having sex with you, but is feeling that she can't say no because she might upset or anger you; or some other reason.

It really isn't rocket science!

@heroine...that fawcett society thing would make me a lesbian rapist then. because i never expressly asked permission before penetrating with a finger or a tongue.

sounds totally ridiculous to me.

Swallowed I think it's about the subtle difference between a woman who really wants to have sex and a woman who goes along with it against her will because she feels unable to say no. For a multitud of reasons.

Effectively, the man is just giving an opportunity or permission to say no.

Given that men are generally in control of the pace (note I said generally) and culturally have more power which carries over into sexual dynamic (particularly for young or vulnerable women) I think this is a reasonable thing for men to undertake to do.

Sorry it's a faff men .

Plus there is nothing sexier for me than a new lover looking into my eyes and asking all breathy, 'do you want to do this?'

IF SOMEONE IS CLEARLY ENJOYING IT THEN THEY ARE CONSENTING. IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT AT ALL, EITHER STOP OR ASK AND THEN STOP IF THEY SAY NO!!!!!!!

It is not difficult to understand it!

"Yes. I had no idea about this. None at all. If there is legislation that requires a formal and provable in a court of law consent, this is information I need to give my boys and teach them how to get that consent in such a format that it can be legally proven."

Really you don't need to worry about it. The law is there to stop men having sex with women who are drugged or drunk. It does not say that consent has to be given in writing or verbally before every sexual encounter.

Plus women don't go around reporting men to the police for consensual sex, and if a man does hook up with a very rare woman who is that deranged then she will try to get him one way or another and whether he asked or not. But that's so vanishingly unlikely to happen I don;t think there;s much point in worrying about it.

Even when men do rape people they are very unlikely to be prosecuted anyway.

So for people who are concerned for teh affect the change in the law might have on men, I really don't think you need to worry.

Goodness me; clear signs to proceed are what I'd expect to follow.

WhenwillIfeelnormal is stating, explicitly, that is insufficient.

swallowedAfly FlamingoBingo that's the issue.

dittany this isn't a thread about a thread, but you'll do as you please, but consider yourself ed.

And no, I'm not a journalist. I'm a 50+ guy who works in IT; I've been active in a wide range of Forums/IRC since FidoNet days. I like a range of forums, as you tend to "meet" a much wider range of people from hunters in the US to volunteer workers in Africa, to adventurers in Chile.

I've rarely joined a forum where polite reasoned posts attract such vehemence & vitriol; a lot of really interesting chat so I shall stay politely engaged with those who want to talk and ignore those who don't.

I too think HexBex's post was fantastic. But there's a world of difference between a woman being really into it, kissing enthusiastically, arching back towards her partner, etc etc, and lying there passively. And this is where the confusion comes in - if she's kissing back, touching etc but perhaps hesitantly, is she just nervous, or regretful? Is she doing it because she wants to, or because that's what she thinks she's supposed to do, or is scared of being rejected or labelled frigid? I think as women the vast majority of us have experienced something like this at least in our early experiences. And if you're unlucky to come across uncaring twats in your later experience, you'd think it was normal.

But once you've experienced sex which is about a real connection, much more than just "keeping your partner happy" or even for the physical sensation - I don't see why you would settle for anything less. But that's JMO :)

"women don't go around reporting men to the police for consensual sex"......what never? hmmmm.

heroine please can you link to the questions asked on the "1 in 4" survey? I can't find them anywhere, and the only "1 in 4" I can find is from a 1991 study not a Fawcett survey.

"If a woman has specifically said already "I'm not interested" then don't have sex with her. If you do you're a rapist."

But I think the posters arguing with this are talking about when a woman doesn't actually say 'I'm not interested', even if she's making it very clear with her body language that she isn't.

Also, if a man and woman are playing a 'game' with eachother, and the woman's saying 'no' whilst writhing in clearly genuine passion, stroking the man, getting involved then it is possible that she does mean 'yes' but it's not rocket science to distinguish a real 'no' from a play 'no' and if you are confused JUST BLOODY ASK. If you stop because a woman says no and she says, I didn't mean it, then you and she need to agree on a 'safe' word that if she says it, it genuinely means 'stop'.

I just don't get why it is so difficult for people to get this!

You wouldn't lovingly forcefeed someone strawberries dipped in chocolate if they kept turning their head away, or grimacing but you could be fairly certain they were keen if they were leaning towards your hand and licking their lips whilst smiling.

kepler you have only quoted half a sentence there. Why did you do that?