Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

[OneMoreChap]

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

HB, good post, but worry that some men wouldn't always know the signs.

Which is why eve we have a duty to advise our sons to get permission and for our schools to promote HB's excellent message. This is just the sort of message being delivered at many secondary schools now thankfully, but it has evidently evaded many of the men in relationships with women on this board, if today's evidence is anything to go by.

HerBex, agree entirely. I think that it's important for boys (and men for that matter) to understand that they need to be sure of what a girl/woman wants, and that they can't make assumptions about it. And that they need to ask the question gently, and without pressure, not in a 'you want this don't you?' kind of way. This is exactly the sort of message I want my DSs to understand.

From my own experience, apart from my first time (when my then boyfriend was v cautious to ensure I was ok with it all), I have never been asked before sex if I consented. I certainly did in every case, apart from one occasion I posted about on the other thread. However with my most recent sexual partner he did ask, and indeed he checked with me repeatedly if it was ok with me to take the next step as matters progressed. I don't know if this is a sign that men's attitudes are changing, or speaks more for a lack of thought on the part of men I have been involved with previously.

i asked on the other thread and nobody answered me, what is a rape apologist?

oh and OMC if dittany sees this thread, you better run

'The simple answer is that a rape apology is any argument that boils down to the myth that rapists can be provoked into raping by what the victim does or does not do.
Such apologies feed off the old myth that rapists have no control over the sexual temptation they experience in response to the victim, therefore the victim could have avoided awakening the irresistible rape temptation by behaving differently. It?s classic victim-blaming.
Most people who make such arguments are not consciously intending to defend rapists. They are simply repeating arguments they have heard before and haven?t fully examined.
There are some excellent posts about rape myths and victim blaming around.'

Retrieved off the internet.

The simple answer is that a rape apology is any argument that boils down to the myth that rapists can be provoked into raping by what the victim does or does not do.

Such apologies feed off the old myth that rapists have no control over the sexual temptation they experience in response to the victim, therefore the victim could have avoided awakening the irresistible rape temptation by behaving differently. It?s classic victim-blaming.

Most people who make such arguments are not consciously intending to defend rapists. They are simply repeating arguments they have heard before and haven?t fully examined.

Besides blaming the victim, rape apologists make other excuses for rapists when they want to call someone who reported rape a liar but can?t.

Rape as simple misunderstanding is one of the most frequent examples. As in, ?I opened her bedroom door in the middle of the night and told her to let me know if she didn?t want me to have sex with her. Since she didn?t respond, I naturally assumed she was consenting

@ thingumy

crossed posts with yogi

Where I work young men are taught that 'no means no' at any point in proceedings, otherwise it's rape, and prior to sex and prior to penetration they should seek an affirmative, especially when having sex for the first time with someone. And if the other person is unable to give consent, eg drunk, then it is also rape. Many do not know this and/or it provokes much discussion. Coincidentally they are also taught that unless they want to be paying maintenance for 18 years, they also need to be responsible for their own contraception, and it is wrong to assume it is a girl's responsibility because she is the one who gets pg (another wake up call for some).

lol at cross posts :) great minds eh.

Thought it was that, there certainly wasn't anything like that going on on the other thread that i picked up on.

OMC i am a bit perturbed by you starting this thread, i thought your imput on the other thread was useful and you sounded like a gentleman. Not sure why, if you are in a relationship this is an issue for you? Apologies if i have it wrong about you being partnered.

That is a very good policy but i actually agree with the idea that no means no is putting the emphasis on the girl.

Why should men assume that a woman is saying yes unless she activly vocalises a no?

It is like a burglar saying that because the alarm didn't go off it was ok to take the tv.

not sure about first time, but to take a side tangent, anyone that I have been with for a while who asks permission should be shot...so unsexy.

I dont think the words "yes its ok you can fuck me" need to be uttered. I would have thought that actions speak louder than words, let the man touch your breasts and respond positively, ok, etc at some point, if you only want to go so far you kind of have to take responsibility and say, ok, lets stop here for now or however you want to stop things. Any halfway decent man(or woman) should respect that.

Maybe if a girl is shy or things are moving slowly, a simple "OK"? would suffice?

thanks wwifn

I have never had a man gain my verbal consent.

I would have thought that consent was very easy to ascertain.

If you are kissing back, touching back, participating, then you are in agreement.

If you are lying there, doing nothing, then you're either very crap in bed or you don't want this. Either way, that is when they need to stop and make enquiries.

And obviously, actively trying to stop them speaks for itself.

I may be being thick, (I often am ) but I don't see how that is hard for anyone to understand or follow.

HecateQueenOfWitches thank you for your post.

I'd entirely agree with that and it's how I thought it should work; but that's now what's being questioned, and was apparently going to be made illegal.

I thought I was going crackers, and fizzfiend I thought so too.

You're not going crackers, but you are misinformed and for reasons best known to yourself, seem to be wilfully misunderstanding this, but again you are not alone.

The legislation has been in place for 8 years now - and we are clearly talking about first encounters, not an existing sexual relationship.

WhenwillIfeelnormal thanks; fortunately it's never likely to impact me as I'm happily with DW and have been for 13 years.

So, that means that HecateQueenOfWitches, softglowsandmaybes, abouteve and I are all out of date :(

I'll look for a link and ensure my kids are both aware that consent must be explicit

I have never (as far as I can remember) been asked if someone can fuck me. I have never felt like I have been 'coerced' into sex. I have sometimes had sex I wasn't particularly into, I have had drunken one-night stands which turned out to be bad decisions and I have had bad sex which has left me feeling slightly grubby afterwards.

But I have never felt that I have been unconsenting in any of these situations.

BTW, OP, I think you conducted yourself well on the giant clusterfuck which was the other thread. I am glad to see a male presence around here, and to read opinions from 'the other side'.

Yes. I had no idea about this. None at all. If there is legislation that requires a formal and provable in a court of law consent, this is information I need to give my boys and teach them how to get that consent in such a format that it can be legally proven.

Is there a link to the legislation further up, with details of what evidence would satisfy a court that consent was given?

I agree wholeheartedly that women must be protected, but as a mother of sons, I want to ensure that they are never in a position where they cannot prove that consent was given.

Am going to read back through the thread more carefully now, in case the link is already there, so I don't waste your time.

I just thought I would say I thought the other threads ops circumstances could have gone either way depending on how things were acted out during the event.

I also find the fact that everyone on here agrees that you can tell if someone wants sex or not very easily interesting because if that is true why are they so many women on the other thread who have gone ahead with sex even though they dont want to because of whatever reason and there partner has not noticed.

In which case either it is easy to know if someone wants sex and the arseholes on that thread didnt give a flying fuck if they wanted it or not but took it anyway, or it s not as easy to judge if someone actualy wants to have sex and verbal consent n some hard to read circumstances should be given.

You cant have it both ways if it is easy to judge then the women on the other thread who had sex even though they didnt want to the partner should have read thoose easy signs and stopped but they didn't which I think is wrong.

OMC we may have disagreed on the other thread but that was another thread and tomorrow we may be on the same side such is the way of mnet.

my OH still asks.....it was one of the strangest aspects i found from being in (lesbian) relationships with women (when neither of us asked the other, we just got on with it), to being in a relationship with a man. i have to admit i find it slightly a turn off - and have mentioned as such to OH - but he still can't seem to get out of the habit of it. it's not like some sort of technical discussion, more of a "are you in the mood" type thing. if i'm the 'starter' i never ask him, i just get on with it - obviously stopping if he isn't in the mood (not that often!). do you think i could end up accused of oral rape???

What exactly is this legislation and what is being taught in schools?

The reason I ask is because DD dumped her first boyfriend for a couple of reasons but the main one being that he asked if he could hold her hand, she thought this wimpish and wants her next boyfriend to take the initiative and snog her face off, without asking first.

Didn't mean to be flippant as I am seriously interested.

Are you a journalist?