Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

[OneMoreChap]

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

This thread and the other one have all made me think.
I'm old
I had poor self esteem (still have... over some issues)
I have allowed sex that I did not want because I was worn down and it was easier to give in than to put up with the consequence. Never considered it rape. Would never report it. It was my ex. The father of my children.

I now know this was wrong.
I wish to the bottom of my heart that my DD's learn this sooner.

This will take education for them as young women and education of the men they meet. I support this discussion and am very glad OMC has raised it

Ah well I talk a lot anyway so maybe that's why I've never had a problem! So I suppose looking back I've usually given some pretty clear verbal signals that penetrative sex is ok!

Grace - "OK?" would suffice.

Or if that is too many syllables:

"Yes?"

Uh-huh!

HerBeX... What I meant was that I feel sad for women who have been raped and angry for men who have been falsely accused of rape as a false accusation makes it that much more difficult for genuine victims of rape to come forward, fearing that they won't be believed. I realise that the false accusation figure is very low where as the rape statistics are shockingly high. It's linked really and I'm angry at all of it... how on earth are we supposed to educate and protect our children when the law is so 'flimsy'? :(

SardineQueen... I know... I've been reading about the myths this evening and I'm rethinking...

Like I said downthread and on the other, there is no ambiguity in my mind. Verbal consent should be asked for - and given, for it to be consensual sex.

just that on the other thread the Op said she didn't really want sex - it all happened fast and she kind of just went along with it but she responded to his kisses and took off her own knickers. This consent thing is really confusing - many were saying that her situation was rape as after initially saying 'not interested - you've got a partner' - he chanced his arm and she went along with it. The impression seemed to be form posters that the man has to check that consent is given - now it seems that it's obvious that consent can be seen to be given if the woman is giving off the right signals which the man should be able to easily feel by the woman's reaction. how are we supposed to expect folk where often the case is 2 folk getting together (drink involved) to be able to navigate this minefield. It was said and I can understand the logic - that someone go along with sex because of low self esteem and that fact that they might feel threatened that the guy might turn violent. How are guys supposed to be able to tell that the woman has low self esteem night be afraid of a possible violent outcome, especially if they are young, maybe inexperienced themselves and both parties are partly drunk? Some guys know exactly what they are doing and look fro vulnerable women in vulnerable situation and take advantage - a bit like the guy yesterday who did seem like a creep.

But, seriously how do you legislate this minefield of modern day sex when the people here seem confused as to what consent is - oh the guy should just be able to tell if the women is into it or not.

Begonya, "How are guys supposed to be able to tell that the woman has low self esteem night be afraid of a possible violent outcome, especially if they are young, maybe inexperienced themselves and both parties are partly drunk"

They can't. That's why in order to be 100% safe, they need to check.

I agree with SAF as well, a lot of the debate around this "how are men supposed to know stuff, focuses on whether or not he can be prosecuted for rape. When I talk to my DS about this stuff, the emphasis won't be on whether he'll be open to a prosecution, the emphasis will be on making sure that he doesn't coerce or force sexual activity on a girl who doesn't want it. In other words, it won't be about a theoretical legalistic nicety, it'll be about consideration, respect and kindness to another human being and self-respect and integrity for himself. And that, fucking outrageously, is what is so missing from most debate about this - as if so little is expected from men, that they don't need to worry about whether they are decent people or not.

It's not 'porn culture' that's the biggest cause of this sort of nonsense, it;s the idea that women don't like sex and if they do it's some sort of moral failing in them, so a man has to 'overcome resistance' and then despise the woman for 'giving in'.

Well i'd say in the UK unless a young person has a steady boyfriend and they explore sex in that manner, then for many young people (including myself) their sexual experiences often come through drink, say after a night out - the pairing off with someone and the usual drunken fumblings etc that follow. I never had a proper boyfriend (my own insecurities) when I was younger so practically all of my first sexual experiences were of this nature until I met my BF who I later married.

Maybe I was lucky to be a strong person to never have been coerced into sex even with all these drunken happenings or the guys I experimented with were nice guys who listened and were never threatening. Only once was I put in situation i felt really uncomfortable with and nearly did go through with it but luckily it didn't happen in the end. Saying that most of my experiences were of a very sexual nature in that we did everything but have intercourse and i never felt pushed or threatened to continue even if I did go back for coffee - even if I did end up naked and slept in his bed. Now I realise that I was lucky, assertive enough and meeting decent guys who never made me feel pushed and respected my boundaries.

I just feel we are somewhat demonising men (especially the younger ones) and expecting them to always behave with more insight and restraint than the female who it seems is so conditioned to pleasing behaviour - how are men/boys supposed to take this in and know all this when the women/girls themselves don't seem to know it.

And yes it would be nice if young people having sex didn't involve being drunk/tipsy but that is the reality for many young people in the UK and it's not going to change fast - I wonder if we got to grips with the drinking culture here - then we would see a huge difference in the way sex is practiced. Sorry, as I don't feel I have explained myself very well. These threads recently have got us all thinking, I guess.

Swallow -

I agree that young women these days feel even more pressure to perform and be liberated and strong a la Katie Price and that like. It was bad enough when I was young, worrying if I could kiss properly etc - these days the anti for young people to be seen to be sexy, and experienced has rocketed out of control. So many young girls these days are looking like glamour models (I hate this style), porn actresses etc - are they being expected to act and be experienced like them to.

"In other words, it won't be about a theoretical legalistic nicety, it'll be about consideration, respect and kindness to another human being and self-respect and integrity for himself. And that, fucking outrageously, is what is so missing from most debate about this - as if so little is expected from men, that they don't need to worry about whether they are decent people or not."

Do you know what, this is how my DH is, respectful, considerate, kind.....

He is the only person I have had a sexual relationship with, who has been.

I thought, until we met, that sex was expected/a given/a must in a relationship.

I guess this theory in my head, came from years of abusive partners, one night stands and various other stupid/dangerous situations I found myself in.

I am unnaccountably pissed off that the last post to slip in on the other thread before it closed, is by a nobber

Yes AF... but his 'nobberishness' is there till the thread slips away and he'll never get a reply to his post hence depriving him of his audience. :)

there is that...