Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

[OneMoreChap]

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

Someone post something awful he has said please?

Op I thought your contribution to the other thread was reasoned and valuable. I feel sorry for the op, she perhaps has esteem issues and met a total chancer who honed in on that, ending in a very regretable sexual encounter. Both sides have serious issues.

I don't see how this debate is ever ended to satisfy all. Consent can't usually be proven either way, without witness. A great reason for getting to know your partner if ever there was one.

I was in Hollywood visiting a friend years ago. He had to work so one day I took a walk down Sunset Blvd. A car slowed down and the man started complimenting me and asking me for a drink. I was bemused, then uncomfortable. I ignored him, then gave him the universal symbol for fuck off. Thankfully he did. When I told my friend he was so angry with me, said that was where the hookers touted for trade and my walking alone, in broad daylight, was an accident waiting to happen. I was furious he mistook me for a prostitute and had a serious wardrobe rethink

But, I never went there again. Everyone drives anyway, so there would have been no one to help me if the guy didn't back off. I am angry that (a minority of ) men can make women feel unsafe and I do think you should be free to invite males into your home for a chat/coffee without fearing rape or even sexual passes. For her own reasons, the op in the other thread didn't feel able to tell him to fuck off. That's for her to work on.

I personally have no time for shrill feminism and, while it's been massively informative and lots of fun, I am making my last post on mumsnet. Too much will warp one's mind, I fear, and I can't take the risk.

Any fucker - I've seen a few of his posts today (vaious threads) - much mansplaining, and oh so sensible 'i'm a feminist too ladies, but you needs a man's persopective..' comments

Bored of that shit from right on nice guys.

I too am 50+, a long time out of the dating game and no wish to jump back into it, but I feel I do just have to say, if I were getting down and dirty, the whole procedure would grind to a halt if the guy in question said "May we proceed to coitus?" because I'd be laughing so hard I'd have to run to the loo pdq! (3 kids! )

An earlier poster said it, don't rush a relationship. If you take your time really getting to know a woman, you'll know when you're on safe ground.

Last post perfumed?

Oh that's a damn shame,I enjoy reading your posts

Actually, I think the premise should be 'no means no. The absence of no, does not mean yes.'

DH asked if I was comfortable and happy with what was happening when we first had sex, even though we'd planned it in advance. It wasn't a mood killer at all. He got an enthusiastic yes

If you know a person well enough to know how they reacy in certain situations, then it's not necessary to check. If you don't, say in a one off casual encounter, I think it's a safe and respectful thing to do.

PL no, please, I need you on MN

charitygirl...fair enough, I haven't checked out all his posts and I get you if that is the case (mansplaining etc)

just commenting on this one, that is all (for me)

FWIW folks, it was me who raised this issue on the other thread about there being no such thing as "implied consent" and posters are absolutely correct about the welcome law change.

However, unlike the parodying statements in this OP, I did not say that men should say "May we proceed to coitus?", "Can we have intercourse?" or ask for a witnessed affidavit . I imagine that most sane women would think they were having an encounter with a time traveller from a Thomas Hardy book if a bloke came out with this bollocks......

So for the record, what I did say was that many yonks ago, whenever I had sex for the first time with a man, he generally checked with me whether I wanted penetration, saying things like "Is this okay" "Are you sure?". This was said in a very considerate, loving way by each man and I greatly appreciated it. It's also what my H did the first time we had sex. This was 20 plus years before the law change.

I also said that we have spoken to our teenage son about always checking that a woman has consented and never assuming anything - as well as all the usual messages about "no" meaning "no".

Now it might be that I have been fortunate enough to sleep with men who were ahead of their time and who were considerate and wise enough to check first, but it's pretty obvious from a man's point of view nowadays that he does gain proper consent - and I think that's a welcome advance in sexual behaviour.

OMC suggested on the other thread that this express consent could be denied by a woman after the event, but for most decent blokes, it would matter terribly to their own conscience that they did ask first and didn't assume consent.

J'agree with Thingumy

And Malificence has spoken sense on both threads

I don't know what 'mansplaining is.

I've posted in relationships
I've posted in teenagers

As far as it goes, I tend to have relationships, not sleep and run, so I guess in a period of weeks to years my partners would probably have mentioned if they felt coerced into sex.

I said I didn't ask. Things flowed.
Elsewhere, I mentioned when drunk I'd walked away.

"Too much about your sex life" well, when I'm getting the snide shots about girls, and "I hope they are older than your daughter" I was peeved.

Usually people come onto forums lurk a bit - I did; and if there's a "say hi thread" join there.

I didn't find one. I filled in a profile.

I've think I've been effectively called a rape apologist, which did upset me a bit, although I gather it's par for the course; I've been sneered at here, and I've been told I'm a woman.

Perhaps I made a mistake joining. We'll see.

Oh, and "right on nice guys"?

Yes, like I'm one of those.

This Op is exactly the kind of petulant childish bollox attitude that prohibits the message of informed consent from finally seeping through.

Any male with any modicum of common sense will be able to read the signs of when penetration is welcomed.

if you are unable to read those signals it is better for all concerned if you keep it in your pants

Oh OMC do ignore those who like to throw around labels such as rape apologists.

They don't have a fecking clue and get right on my wick. It's just pathetic, you can't disagree with an interpretation without being an apologist.

Hysterical feminism is rife on these boards.

OP, you need to grow a thicker skin if you want to stick around

You see newbies who come on and throw their weight around a little (for whatever reason) don't go down too well

it happened to the best of us

we stride in here, see all that is wrong.with.mumsnet and think we can tell people what is right under their noses

it never works

you have 3 options

1. front it out and be tomorrow's chip wrappers ie. realise no-one really gives a shit

2. name-change and come back a wiser poster

3. fuck off and cry

your choice

apologies, i read a bit more and see you were discussing another thread.

but still...it annoys me.

Do as AF says, she is clever

"Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?"

Actually, you could change your mind anyway, even if you've given consent previously. Are you not aware of that OP? A woman or man, has the right to not want to carry on at any stage of sex. If you carry on fucking someone who has asked you to stop, you have stopped having consensual sex and you are now raping them. That is what the law says.

Of course I expect a new lover to ascertain that I'm consenting, but my ambition is to only shag men who are competent lovers. Competent lovers look at the women they are with, they read the body language, they keep eye contact, they ask if it feels good, if they get no response, they look questioning and wait for the nod to go on... in short, they treat a woman as if she is a human being and they make love to her, they don't rape her. It's really not difficult, men who say it is, are either defending rape or they're crap in bed, or both.

oh. Is this a thread about a thread or a discussion about consent?

I typed something out but I don't want to waste it if we're just scrapping.

Yes btw, no one really cares if you diagree or not.

It's the net, some people will have keyboard warrior syndrome, most don't and don't actually hold a grudge against you. It's all just key bashing.

Fuck off and cry? Nah, just fuck if I got wound up enough
name change - no point
Front it out. Probably the best bet.

I didn't think I'd thrown my weight about... I know now :O

I didn't actually think there was anything wrong with mumsnet (and still don't :) )

but yogididabooboo reading the signs... pretty much what I was saying. will be able to read the signs of when penetration is welcomed. Yep. Like I did. Always.
Difference from seeking informed consent, I would have thought.

I shall leave it there though and retire chastened till another day.

I think this thread is about the specific issue of whether it is expected that a man gains consent before he penetrates a woman, Hecate. The OP seemed baffled by this notion on the other thread and to be fair to him, he was not alone.

FWIW OMC I was in agreement with your broader message on the other thread, that the situation concerned called for joint responsibility. I also dislike the practice of victimising women, avoidance of personal responsibility and not listening to the OP herself. I also value the contributions of wise posters of whatever gender.

I'm hoping that OMC is after genuine opinions about his question here, rather than to parody only one of my posts on another very heated thread. That is the interpretation I would prefer to make.

I'd also like to read opinions on this, because I have to say, I was shocked today at the amount of female posters who claimed that they had never had a man ask them if it was okay to proceed.

I hope you come back OMC and dip your toes into other threads.

It's good to have newcomers (male or female) that feel they can speak out and give their opinions.

OMC, I am serious when I say, just get over yourself and come back another day (if you want to)

MN memory is short, all the topics are very fast-moving

individuals are really not important

I have had some absolute pastings on here, and live to tell the tale

if you want to carry on posting with a large chip on your shoulder though, just because you got a telling-off, you won't last long

This is something posted ages ago on another thread about how we teach boys and girls in the classroom about consent, but I think it's worth re-posting since some adult men claim to be confused about it:

Re no means no - I increasingly think that this is quite a dangerous slogan, as it puts the onus on girls and women to say no, when we are actually brought up in a culture which socialises us never to say no, straight out. We're taught to say "I'd rather not..." "If you don't mind" "do you think we could" "do you want to" etc. - we suggest and try to lead, hoping that others will take us up on our suggestions, anything but come right out and state our wishes.

So I think there should be much more emphasis on "yes means yes" - and that talks to the boys more than the girls - is she saying yes? Is she wanting you? Is she showing you she's wanting you? Is she arching herself towards you, is she kissing you back, are her arms around you, is she pressing herslef against you, is she caressing your hair, neck, back, bum? If she isn't, what is she doing? Is she trying to pull away from you? Is she still and frozen? Is she saying and doing nothing? Does she seem detached? Does she seem as if she's not really connecting with you? ARE YOU SURE SHE WANTS YOU TO DO THE THINGS YOU ARE DOING? And if you're not - STOP doing them. Check with her if she's happy - not in a coercive, forceful way, giving her no choice but to say "it's OK" - in a way that gives her the opportunity to ACTIVELY show you that she wants you, not just that she doesn't know how to tell you she doesn't want you, without hurting your feelings, upsetting you or making you angry.

It's about making the boys feel responsible for any coercion or force that might take place, not put that responsibility onto the girls. Because they are more likely to be rape/ sexual assault perpetrators and girls are more likely to be rape/ sexual assault victims. So both sides need to understand very clearly, where lies the responsibility for ensuring that rape or sexual assault does't happen - with the most likely perpetrators.

I looked at the other thread but seriously. If you are naked in bed, engaging in foreplay then it's probably OK to assume that penetration is consensual unless she says no or he says I don't want it to go this far.

If you are snogging in the kitchen, and willing getting naked, then same.

If he is dragging your knickers off and she says no then it's not OK.

HB...excellent reminder there