Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

[OneMoreChap]

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

I do LyingWitch.

"I feel desperate sad for anybody who has been raped but it makes me so angry to hear of incidences of a woman wrongly accusing someone of rape when it wasn't"

Why do you only feel sad for women who have been raped, but really angry for men who have been falsely accused of rape?

You do realise that about 25% women are raped or sexually assaulted don't you, and that very very few men are ever falsely accused of rape? The estimates are, that of the 1 in 4 women who are raped, only about 10-30% report it and let's be really generous and assume that it 30%, only between 2 and 8% (and 8% is a really massive estimate, mostly they settle at around 3-4% ish) are false allegations? So if you look at the problems together, one looks like fucking mount everest and the other looks like an anthill? So why do you care so much more about the anthill than the mountain?

I don't understand this approach that there are different "categories" of victim and according to some outside idea of how much a certain category "ought" to defend themselves impacts on how "bad" the attack is or how much they "ought" to defend themselves and if they don't that they are in some way acting wrongly?

So a 6 year old can't be blamed - at what age does that change? What is the magical age when a person turns from being someone who is a victim to someone who is not? At puberty? 16? 21? How does that work then? And then a woman is excluded from blame if she has downs syndrome - what if she is mentally ill? What if she is alcoholic? What if she has been damaged in the past psychologically? What if she is simply shy and finds it hard to vocalise?

And then women become vulnerable again when they are older - what is the magic age there? When confronted with a massive bloke I am just as vulnerable as my mother.

Where do all these "rules" come from?

I've been away for a few days, so have missed this thread & am only replying to the OP.

When, in my late thirties - early forties, I slept with some much younger men, I was mildly amused that they requested permission to enter - and very pleased that the message had got through!

Given that my answer was usually "OH GOD YES PLEASE, NOW" I didn't have a problem with it

WTF? Are you pissed? Go and watch some porn, and leave us alone.

huh? was that for me?

Grace NO! It was for the OP. :)

OK, having read some of the preceding posts - yes, it was for me.

I've been away for a few days, so have missed this thread & am only replying to the OP.

I was ... very pleased that the message had got through!

The "rules" (ie, the law that is now being repealed) say the woman must have given permission and be competent to give permission. So 'permission' from a woman who is educationally subnormal, pissed, stoned or very naive is invalid.

I was competent to give permission. I was pleased to have been asked. Hope that clarifies my reply.

sleepycaz - Thanks! Gone and justified for nothing, then

Grace Sorry. I'm a spiky pain in the backside tonight. Am in a horrid mood due to a horrid few weeks. Ignore me.

:) SleepyCaz. Hope this week's better!

Sometimes, in some circumstances, misreading of signals does occur. I would imagine that quite a lot of people who date a lot and have had several sexual partners might occasionally have been in a situation when either they, or the person they had been talking to/dancing with/spending an evening with, wanted sex and thought that the other person would like it as well. So one person makes a move eg tries a kiss or even says, how about a shag? But the other person recoils, or says 'No, goodness me, oh no, I have a partner/I'm of the wrong sexual orientation/I only think of you as a friend'.
BUT at this point, if the one who made the first move is, like most people are, a decent human being then s/he backs off, apologises and feels utterly mortified.
The bad person, the rapist person, reacts by saying 'Oh come on, you've been looking at me/dancing with me all night,' or 'Don't be silly, you know you want it or even 'But you let me do it yesterday' - or just tries again.
What part of 'No' do these bastards not understand?

the rapist person, reacts by saying 'Oh come on, you've been looking at me/dancing with me all night, ... you know you want it'

Or, in several absurd cases from my interesting past, "You're no spring chicken, I'm the best offer you'll get now" Very seductive!

Yuk, Grace! What on earth makes people think that's a line that's going to work?

Idiocy?

this thread had confused me - on one hand people seemed to be saying that the man has to make sure or gain permission for intercourse. Some one asks does this permission have to be beyond doubt or misinterpretation such as in verbal or 'written' one (take that was a bit sarcastic). Now people are saying, no doesn't have to be verbal but any decent man can tell by the woman's response, arching her back , kissing etc - this is still leaving consent in a very grey area. What about all the young, more inexperienced people, many who have casual sex after having quite a few drinks. Am I the only one that seems to think much of the advise is contradictory - still leaving too many grey areas regarding consent .

Hmm, it probably does begony, but if a drunk guy gets in a car and crashes it, his drunkness isn't going to stop him being prosecuted. He's still resposnible for getting himself into such a state of inebriation, that he broke the law.

I'm reading Lundy Bancroft atm and one of th things he's categorical about, is that alcohol doesn't turn a non-abusive man into an abusive one. It gives him an excuse for his abuse, but it isn't actually the reason.

Arching her back? This is permission to penetrate her body with a penis??

Try saying that in my dance class

Out of the men I've had sex with, only one ever actually asked - and he said 'Can I come down on you?' Just the biggest turn off ever bleeurgh!

Might be different for someone you're having casual sex with, but surely for most of us even in a very new relationship there are very clear signals that sex is on the cards?

Yes fp there usually are I think. And usually it's all consensual and it happens and it's fine, because both parties are paying attention to each other and respecting each other's boundaries and checking in with each other.

The problem is where full penetrative sex hasn't been on the cards and someone goes ahead and makes it happen anyway, regardless of the fact that the other person doesn't want it.

The point is that telepathic communication is unreliable at best.

When one party has a strong agenda, which might not be shared by the other, telepathy is known to suffer severe interference. Verbal communication is highly recommended in such circumstances.

This idea that verbal permission requires some sort of formal conversation, Jane Austen stylee, is such twaddle I can't quite believe I keep hearing it. What's wrong with saying "I want you inside me now", "I'll get a condom", "Do you want me inside you" or even "Is this okay"?

FWIW, I've stopped rapes by saying "Er, you're raping me." This embarrassing faux pas can easily be avoided with a bit of vocalisation.