Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

[OneMoreChap]

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

I was going to leave this thread and the other one but I can't.

I think everybody understands what rape is but perhaps some people understand it better 'by degrees'. There's a lot of talk about implied consent and that men must understand that without express consent, it's classed as rape if the woman says it is.

A rape victim wouldn't judge other people's experiences, I'm sure, but there has to be some distinction surely in what happens when an elderly lady's home is broken into and she is attacked and raped and possibly beaten up and that of women who perhaps have been drinking, lost their inhibitions, agreed to have sex (but perhaps without saying it expressly) and then after the event are full of remorse and self-loathing?

Yes we should be teaching our sons that they need to be very careful and make absolutely certain that their partner wishes to have sex... but at the same time, we need to be teaching our daughters that they have absolute rights over their bodies and with that comes responsibility also.

From what I've read on the other thread and seen in the press about 'false rapes' and the ordeal that rape victims have to go through, I have pretty low expectations of society as it all seems to be coming down to blame instead of education and prevention.

Mal if you say no and are ignored then what.

You either need to get more assertive and you have no idea what will happen then (he ignores again - you need to get more assertive - where will that lead?) - or you acquiesce.

FWIW the woman on the other thread did tell him that she didn't want sex and he ignored her. She acquiesced. Now I wasn't there so I don't know how it played out, none of know what the situaiton was really like. But what I do know is that many women have been in that situation where they have said no and been ignored - and on reading that thread they would have been left in no doubt by a lot of the comments that they did something wrong. By being alone with a man in the first place (I mean, come on), by fancying someone, by not shouting and screaming and so on.

It was not a good thread.

"agreed to have sex (but perhaps without saying it expressly) and then after the event are full of remorse and self-loathing?"

That is not rape.

"As for self-confidence and being 'silly', I shall be sure to mention that to my friend who was gang-raped at age 6. Clearly if she had been more forceful, it wouldn't have happened"

That's not the type of scenario I'm describing here and you damn well know it.

The OP in the other thread did do a very silly thing but that is in no way excusing the man's behavior at all, he's a pig.

Drunken sex that you regret is not rape.

Rape is non consensual sex.

Lyingwitch you are deliberately setting up a rape scene versus a non rape scene. Regretting sex later, is not rape. Not wanting to have sex where you know the man but he doesn't respect your lack of yes, is rape.

It makes no difference if a man has broken into your house or whether you let him in voluntarily to read the meter, or to borrow a spanner, or to have a cup of coffee. If he has sex with you that you have made it clear you don't want (by not engaging enthusiastically with the process) then he has raped you.

It's time women learned that. Because d'you know what, most men already know that. The ones who claim not to, are either probably rapists, or they are uncomfortable about condemning other men for doing something they know they would never do themselves, because they have been brought up in a rape culture just like all of us have and don't want to throw judgements around.

Well, I've had regrettable sex, and I've been raped.

I can state with some confidence that I know the difference between the two.

Absolutely Janos, me too.

We aren't discussing disabled or otherwise hugely vulnerable women here or even the injustice of the legal process.

I'm only talking about self esteem and assertiveness in the context of saying no to a man who is used to getting his way by being a bit pushy and manipulative, not to a man who will threaten or use violence to subdue and rape a woman.

The op of the other thread really hasn't said that she made it clear to the man that she didn't want sex, if she was kissing/touching/undressing him then that implies consent. If she had said that she lay there, motionless and eyes closed while he was penetrating her then I would think that he should have noticed and stopped and that not to do so would have been rape.

It's pretty likely that a man who is prepared to be a bit pushy/manipulative/ignore signals indicating lack of consent would also be prepared to use violence/threats if that didn't work.

You can be as self confident and assertive as you like in that scenario and it won't make a damn bit of difference.

But then he will know and you will know that he is intent on rape. Massive psychological difference.

I really think you have a very limited understanding and misplaced faith that being self confident and assertive will stop this kind of thing.

A man intent on rape isn't necessarily going to stop just because a woman says no.

In my case (I am not going to go into details n for obvious reasons) I said quite clearly, No, I don't want to (is that assertive enough?). He said 'Well I do' and that was that. There was an implied threat. I can't describe how it felt on here but it was definitely there. There weren't any weapons involved.

Just to clarify, the fact that I now have a higher self esteem does not make me rape proof.

Infact, IME, woman who are confident, striking maybe, or who have a certain presence, are often the target of male preditors too.

Janos you are so right to say it can be a combination of (the wrong) circumstances, and in those situations all the self esteem/assertiveness in the world won't make a difference. To think otherwise would suggest extreme smugness and lack of insight, as well as more than a little victim blaming.

I would suggest that it is more important to educate men about obtaining proper consent, and being respectful towards women, than teaching women to 'prevent' rape.

Janos what happened to you sounds extremely similar to me, I used the same words. He just ignored me though.

I didn't bother saying it again. He was a very big strong man (boy? we were quite young). I am very small. There didn't seem to be any point.

It does sound very similar :(...I'm also small, he was (is) very tall and well built.

Reading it again sounds odd - I'm not that small, 5'3 and was a slender thing in those days. He was a big rugby player. I hate that some people will think that I did something wrong - I didn't and he did and that's the end of it.

I've really read your replies carefully, trying to see where I'm not understanding and seeing things the way some of you see them.

I can't help but see a distinction, I really do... obviously a 6 year old being gang-raped is in no position to defend herself from men who will behave like that, likewise someone with Downs or other mental impairment or elderly or disabled woman. It's entirely different from a woman who has the intellectual capacity to say 'no' or to make her feelings known in some way but doesn't for feeling awkward or wanting to please or some other reason.

What I'm reading from this thread is that it's rape either way. I just can't see it that way; to me there's a vast difference between the thuggish take-what-I-want kind of man and the misguided man who takes acquiescence as an 'ok' rather than yes or no, and doesn't give it much thought at the time, the same as the woman.

I feel desperate sad for anybody who has been raped but it makes me so angry to hear of incidences of a woman wrongly accusing someone of rape when it wasn't, just because she's perhaps been told to or it's been suggested to her that it was.

Even if you strongly disagree, does anybody understand the point that I'm trying (badly, probably) to make?

I do LyingWitch.

perfumedlife... I just read your post on the other thread... terrible. :(