My father (married 25 years) frequently "secretly" using gay porn

[TotallyFrozen]

Hi all, I am so grateful for the name change feature on this. I am posting here because hopefully there are many women on here who would be in a similar-length marriage to my mother and it is her welfare that I am concerned about here. Sorry this will be long-ish.

In a nutshell: My father is an unlikeable and difficult person. He rarely helps around the house, usually disagrees with whatever is said seemingly for the sake of being difficult, gets very angry and defensive if anyone criticises him (screams, makes threats towards you, threatens to leave), and spends his days rotating between sleeping, eating, watching TV, and using the computer. Unfortunately the feeling that I and my sibling have towards him is contempt, even though we wish we could have a good relationship with him. He has some good points (financial contributions, nice towards our pets). He has a history of falling out with others but always blames them, and has few friends or people he gets along with. The "narcissistic personality disorder" description rings very true for him (and I say this as someone who works in the mental health field). This description is basically "the tip of the iceberg".

My mother, whilst an imperfect human like all of us, is a kind and caring woman who is very selfless and giving.

The problem: My father is constantly looking up gay porn on the home computer. He has been doing this for probably 13 years, though my sibling and I only became certain of it around 2-3 years ago. Previously we attributed things we found (videos/ pictures hidden away in folders, constant viruses on the computer, etc.) to viruses, etc. He has been doing this since we were both children. Once we realised what was happening, we decided to install K9 (a child internet protection program) on all our home computers to at least stop the behaviour in the house. I know that there may be an argument against trying to control someone's use of porn but considering his horrible behaviour at home, we felt that it was awful of him to disrespect my mum in her home in this way whilst using her for her domestic services. I am OK with being criticised for this decision and would be interested in differing perspectives. My mum is not very good with technology and has no inkling of his behaviour. He thinks he is hiding his tracks, but he is not as good as he thinks he is with technology either.

Anyway, increasingly I am realising that installing programs that prevent him from accessing these sites constantly (i.e., every night once everyone has gone to bed, during the day when no-one is behind him) is only addressing a symptom rather than the core problem. He is now searching for images on Google images and on social networking type-sites which the internet protection program cannot block without blocking ALL such sites. It really angers me that he uses and puts down my mum during the day, then goes behind her back and does this most nights. My post is prompted by the fact that he did this last night and didn't even bother trying to cover his tracks by deleting his history. Is he WANTING to be discovered? Initially I was shocked finding this out, but I've now had 3 years to become semi-desensitised to it all.

My mum describes him as "a good man, though he has his problems" and has spoken in the past about how she is happy to be part of a couple and be financially secure. Most of his behaviour, she has learnt to "let go", because he gets so nasty when criticised. It is like we all tiptoe around him. They have been married around 25 years. I'm quite sure they have no sex life anymore (I say this because he sometimes goes off for "massages" twice a week or so - they seemed legitimate but I'm aware that gay porn might not be all that he's seeking out and I wouldn't want my mum's health at risk).

My question is: What do I do? His seeking out of gay porn is pervasive and frequent; before I put K9 on our computers he was doing it constantly and just minimising the screen when someone would walk past. I haven't brought up the topic, just passive-aggressively installed K9 and refused to remove it when he asked me to. We got some new computers and he installed K9 first so he could have control over what he viewed, and was watching all the porn again. Luckily I was able to hack into it, uninstall it, and put in a new version of K9 that I have control over. It is like this ridiculous passive-aggressive dance back and forth between us; however I do not feel it is my right to potentially destroy my parents' marriage by publicising what's going on.

I'm basically wondering, from women in long marriages, what you would want if this were your husband, and what issues might be important for me to consider? Should I remain quiet, talk to my father privately, tell my mum - what?

Dittanny then we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm trying to contribute here.

You are not actually answering the question here, or really contributing anything practical or helpful.

I'm trying to point out that in fact, the relationship between the parents is not the adult child's to 'fix' and that actually she should have nothing to do with it - as it clearly affects her badly - so she should not

Leaving a history on a computer that an adult child then access is very far from abuse, and leaves the OP very far from helpess in this scenario.

Becoming involved in that scenario, and not removing herself, is psychologically dangerous to her and may indicate some form of abuse earlier in her life, due to the same circumstances.

The OP has chosen to stay in this house, even though she could get a job and her own palce to live. Albeit that she would have to put off her studies for a while, you can't always get everything you want.

She clearly feels some sense of responsibilitiy for fixing the issues between her parents, which are 1. adult and 2. sexual.

She should remove herself from further involvement.

She asked what to do, many people are telling her what they think they should do.

I think this section of te OP's original post really says it all:

Once we realised what was happening, we decided to install K9 (a child internet protection program) on all our home computers to at least stop the behaviour in the house. I know that there may be an argument against trying to control someone's use of porn but considering his horrible behaviour at home, we felt that it was awful of him to disrespect my mum in her home in this way whilst using her for her domestic services.

They want to stop their father's use of internet porn because of
a) his horrible behaviour ( so they are sanctioning his behaviour- bit like taking away a child's X box for naughty behaviour)

b) they see his behaviour as a sign of "disrespect" towards their mother whilst using her for "domestic servies" ( irrespective of whether the mother feels aggrieved, and disregarding the fact that the whole family, presumably, is financially dependent on the father.

Both of these behaviours are controlling , based on a judgemental attitude of what is or is not acceptable for another adult, and in a marriage.

The rest of the posts by the OP are froth- the history of the father's horribleness is not relevant- loads of kids would say that about their parents.His behaviour seems to give them licence to now try to control what he does, but it shouldn't.

It's been made pretty clear that the mother is happy to exist as she is- for her own reasons. She may even love him! if she was unhappy, I do think that an adult child would know about this.

I haven't said so here, but I did PM the OP and she was grateful for this- I got into a pig in the middle situation with my parents as they almost divorced in their 70s- and it is not a good place to be. There are always 2 sides and a "child" is too close to it all to be a confident. At the end of the day my mother decided to stay put as she didn't want to lose the home they had had for 50 years, and decided to make her own life better whilst still living with my dad.

Children, even as adults, should not get involved in their parents' marriages- unless asked- and only very warily even then.

Hairyfairylights the word symbiotic means mutually beneficial. So what I wrote about it being an offensive term to use in the context of an abusive relationship still stands.

The op's mother may well have told her daughter that she is happy enough to remain in her marriage due to the financial stability it gives her, but this is her daughter that she is speaking to. She is hardly going to confide her innermost fears to a daughter she is trying her best to protect is she? And staying for the sake of financial stability is simply an expression of the fear of not being able to manage alone anyway.

Who knows what private hell this woman is going through.

Ah jeez. Yes I know what symbiotic means. That's why I brought it up.

If the OP's mother is 'happy enough to remain in her marriage due to the financial stability it gives her" then the relationship is beneficial in some way to the OP's mother.

as Cabbageroses puts it so well, what I see here is a daughter who is somehow being dragged in to adult issues that are between her parents, none of her business, and none of her responsibility.

Hairyfairylights It is none of the op's responsibility, that is true.

You asked me if I understood what the term symbiotic meant, so please don't imply that I'm being patronizing when I then tell you.

The op's mother has told her that she is happy enough to remain in the marriage due to the financial stability it gives her. My point is that we don't know whether underlying that reason is in fact a deep fear of being unable to manage alone. As I have pointed out before, women stay in abusive relationships for many different and understandable reasons, but none of those reasons equate to the woman somehow getting something out of the relationship, or finding it beneficial to her well-being.

Can't you understand that just because a woman feels stuck with her lot, doesn't mean she is happy with it or wants it to continue.

But Dittany- it's HIS HOME and HIS pc- and what he is doing is freely available on the web for everyone to see. The other members in the house are ADULTS. They can either look away, choose to tolerate his activities, speak to him- or move.

It might be distasteful to some people, and be hard to be confronted by your parents' sexual behaviour & preferences, but it's not illegal.

The thing is, it's not that uncommon for marriages to continue when the spouse discovers the other is gay. I know of at least two couples who continued the marriage because there were kids. Eventually they split. The difference is, the spouse knew what the other was/is. There was a choice. It was incredible difficult to admit to being gay and in some respects I feel for the Op's father, especially from an older generation where to be gay was a huge stigma.

The bottom line is, the mother may not know and, if I were the op, I would casually inform her of the browsing history her father leaves on the Pc, without making it a big deal. If her mother does not ask further, she clearly knows and doesn't want to deal with it. But, at least the op knows her mother has choices, and she can back off. The father won't freak out because he won't know.

If the mother doesn't know and is horrified, well, she made the right call.

Dittany

I wasn't shouting; I was just too lazy to use italicise or make bold for emphasis.

Yes, it is a family home, but the father is the main/only bread winner, so I doubt if he will ask for a democratic vote on how he can use the pc which he bought and funds.

You may have missed the fact that the OP is in a different country. I am not sure about the patriarchal thing- I have asked that in my PM.

Overall, you seem not to be addressing many of the points which I and other posters have raised.

This patriarchal thing is such a red herring. It is to do with a parent and a child. We do not know the sex of the OP; he could be a man. It is completely irrelevant whether it is a daughter and father or a son and mother.

The fact is that an adult offspring remains in a parent's home at the invitation of his/her parents. It is not a right. And, in return for the housing and financial support, it is reasonable to expect a degree of respect. Otherwise, you become a viper in the nest.

larry- the OP said in a post late last night that they were female.

I've just read through this thread from start to finish, and by page 3 I was thinking the same thing Dittany has suggested.

The fact is, this sloppily-slow closing of windows as his children walk past is exposing them to porn. He'll know he hasn't been fast enough.

The question is, is he doing the same with his wife? Clearly, if he is, she'll know what's going on, regardless of whether or not she uses the family PC. If not, why just the children?

If the father knows enough to download K9 once and set up the controls, he knows enough to clear his internet history.

As I was reading this I was reminded of a very unpleasant incident which happened to me when DH and I were on holiday in Rome while I was pregnant. We were in a park looking at the statues, walking around them, and there was a man looking at a magazine - I hadn't really noticed him. DH was looking at one side of the statue and I wandered around the other - the man was there, and I saw that he was looking at hardcore porn. He closed the magazine, but in time for me to see what it was. When he saw my shocked reaction, he was... pleased by it. It was just horrible.

MYODD - I totally disagree, I think you have confused cause and effect. It is well known that emotionally (or otherwise) abusive people are that way because of their own struggles i.e. Difficult childhoods, depression, mental health disorders etc. It does not excuse the abuse but it is a reason for it. What you say implies that some people are just born bad and become abusers, this section of people would fall under the mental Health disorders buy most abusers are the products of their environment in some way. It is very, very common for people covering a secret life of any kind to become emotionally abusive to the people they are closest to.

cabbageroses. It seems to me that you are focussing mostly on the porn issue and (I think) making an assumption that some people are being judgmental about gay porn. This is about way more than the porn, and the OP being "offended by his distasteful behaviour". This is a man who is looking at gay porn whilst married, not bothering to hide it and behaving badly to his family. An unhappy man who is acting out. The other examples of "horribleness" are not froth. It is disingenous (and I think a bit heartless) to say this is not relevant.

That said, I don't know what the OP should "do" about it. I agree with you that she should not get involved in the marriage. But I think that she needs to protect herself because this does have huge implications for her own emotional well-being. Have PMed her

X post curious. I agree

'...disregarding the fact that the whole family, presumably, is financially dependent on the father.'

So if a family is 'lucky' enough to have a father who provides financially, he can do whatever he pleases in his own home, treat everyone there abysmally -- his home is his castle?

What you are saying Cabbageroses, is that abuse is fine as long as the abuser brings home the bacon, and it is somehow disrespectful to criticise a gainfully employed abusive man?

I have now officially seen everything.

JLC- if you read the original OP's post- last paragraph she asks whether she ought to tell all about the porn.

THAT is why I have made it my focus.

Her father is certainly not easy to live with but the point I keep making is that her desire to tell her mother seems more a punitive reaction to her father's behaviour ( past and present) rather than a desire to really "help" her mother see what her husband is up to.

To me, it seems more as if she has found the porn to be a stick with which to beat him, for not being the sort of father she wants.

math- one and for all- will you please get over this idea of abuse.

This is distasteful behaviour but the daughter is a 21+ adult woman not a child.

She has a choice. She chooses to live at home because it is convenient whilst she studies.

Finally, please do not add to or misinterpret my words. I did not say they were "lucky".

What I did say is that he is entitled yes, to behave as he likes, because he IS! You may not like it, but he is.

If his wife doesn't like it she should leave and ditto the daughter. End of.

Get real.

Fair point. I wonder whether the OP has made the link between the porn and the behaviour (and I wondered whether you had as well). I think the mum probably knows anyway.

OP has a lot to sort out for herself, I think. Yes, she's legally an adult, but the child of this marriage

That last post of mine was in reply to cabbageroses 19:45:58

"If the father knows enough to download K9 once and set up the controls, he knows enough to clear his internet history."

It was the adult child, not the father, who downloaded and installed it, unless I've read wrong.

I also notice that the OP wrote 'on all the family computers'. So why not just use the other ones, as she knows there is upsetting information on the one the father uses?

Because she has become embroiled and wants to fix an unfixable issue.

Hairy fairy lights - the dad installed his own version of k9 which he was in control of at one point and the op hacked it so she could re-restrict what her dad could access I believe. The implication being that if he was in control of the k9 program he could look at what he liked and she couldn't stop him.

LarryGrylls -- there are many cultures where adult children remain in the home as a matter of course until marriage, not at the invitation of the parents or as a favour to children who are maybe down on their luck. Has it crossed your mind that this may be the case here?

And again, you have some vague notion that a man deserves to be treated with kid gloves in his own home, just because he is the father -- male privilege put forth again as a reason for keeping quiet in the face of abuse and for allowing the mother here to remain in the dark. You live in the Victorian era.

'Math unless you are a qualified psychiatrist or psychotherapist, it is not helpful to attach labels such as narcissm to people about whom you know next to nothing, and even if you were qualified you have only 1 side of the story.'

Yet it is perfectly fine for you, Cabbageroses, to dismiss everything TF has revealed here about what she has been exposed to in this family as 'froth' -- because you are what, a psychotherapist? a social worker? a police detective? Oh yes, you work in academia.. so obviously you are eminently qualified to dismiss everything TF has said about her life in this family and the behaviour of her father as irrelevant; nothing is important here according to your informed judgement except your own personal bee in the bonnet, the unassailable right of a man to look at gay porn in his own home.

Like Valium here, I have lived with a narcissist. They are not that hard to spot. They are capable of doing appalling damage to their children. I suspect you have absolutely no experience of anything of that nature.

I think whether or not the op feels abused is her own private business and she wasn't inviting people to comment on that aspect. Whilst it is relevant to the likelihood of her mother being abused, which is what this question is about, it doesn't really seem to be something she even wants to discuss just now. IME whilst pointing these things out can sometimes be helpful, people need to come to actual decisions about these things in their own time and have ownership of their own feelings. This thread may have become quite counter productive for the OP because of this as it seems many people are trying to make a decision about whether the OP has been abused by her father or not.

IME unless a person is in some way psychologically disturbed they don't generally completely imagine abusive behaviour, they more often than not don't want to see abuse that is staring them in the face. This does not mean that that person has actual proof of things that have been going on, maybe just a feeling that something is not right. If the problem is with another person's relationship you need to have facts and be sure of what exactly you are dealing with before you do anything. Yes it is possible to overreact about your parent's relationship but that is again another reason to find out exactly what you are dealing with. That is why I think that really has to be the first step.

I don't think it is ideal to do what the op has already done but it is at least understandable. She is worried, imagining all sorts and feels uncomfortable. The only person who knows what is going on is her dad and I doubt she'll have any peace until she speaks to him or have a good idea of whether it is even appropriate to speak to her mum.