My father (married 25 years) frequently "secretly" using gay porn

[TotallyFrozen]

Hi all, I am so grateful for the name change feature on this. I am posting here because hopefully there are many women on here who would be in a similar-length marriage to my mother and it is her welfare that I am concerned about here. Sorry this will be long-ish.

In a nutshell: My father is an unlikeable and difficult person. He rarely helps around the house, usually disagrees with whatever is said seemingly for the sake of being difficult, gets very angry and defensive if anyone criticises him (screams, makes threats towards you, threatens to leave), and spends his days rotating between sleeping, eating, watching TV, and using the computer. Unfortunately the feeling that I and my sibling have towards him is contempt, even though we wish we could have a good relationship with him. He has some good points (financial contributions, nice towards our pets). He has a history of falling out with others but always blames them, and has few friends or people he gets along with. The "narcissistic personality disorder" description rings very true for him (and I say this as someone who works in the mental health field). This description is basically "the tip of the iceberg".

My mother, whilst an imperfect human like all of us, is a kind and caring woman who is very selfless and giving.

The problem: My father is constantly looking up gay porn on the home computer. He has been doing this for probably 13 years, though my sibling and I only became certain of it around 2-3 years ago. Previously we attributed things we found (videos/ pictures hidden away in folders, constant viruses on the computer, etc.) to viruses, etc. He has been doing this since we were both children. Once we realised what was happening, we decided to install K9 (a child internet protection program) on all our home computers to at least stop the behaviour in the house. I know that there may be an argument against trying to control someone's use of porn but considering his horrible behaviour at home, we felt that it was awful of him to disrespect my mum in her home in this way whilst using her for her domestic services. I am OK with being criticised for this decision and would be interested in differing perspectives. My mum is not very good with technology and has no inkling of his behaviour. He thinks he is hiding his tracks, but he is not as good as he thinks he is with technology either.

Anyway, increasingly I am realising that installing programs that prevent him from accessing these sites constantly (i.e., every night once everyone has gone to bed, during the day when no-one is behind him) is only addressing a symptom rather than the core problem. He is now searching for images on Google images and on social networking type-sites which the internet protection program cannot block without blocking ALL such sites. It really angers me that he uses and puts down my mum during the day, then goes behind her back and does this most nights. My post is prompted by the fact that he did this last night and didn't even bother trying to cover his tracks by deleting his history. Is he WANTING to be discovered? Initially I was shocked finding this out, but I've now had 3 years to become semi-desensitised to it all.

My mum describes him as "a good man, though he has his problems" and has spoken in the past about how she is happy to be part of a couple and be financially secure. Most of his behaviour, she has learnt to "let go", because he gets so nasty when criticised. It is like we all tiptoe around him. They have been married around 25 years. I'm quite sure they have no sex life anymore (I say this because he sometimes goes off for "massages" twice a week or so - they seemed legitimate but I'm aware that gay porn might not be all that he's seeking out and I wouldn't want my mum's health at risk).

My question is: What do I do? His seeking out of gay porn is pervasive and frequent; before I put K9 on our computers he was doing it constantly and just minimising the screen when someone would walk past. I haven't brought up the topic, just passive-aggressively installed K9 and refused to remove it when he asked me to. We got some new computers and he installed K9 first so he could have control over what he viewed, and was watching all the porn again. Luckily I was able to hack into it, uninstall it, and put in a new version of K9 that I have control over. It is like this ridiculous passive-aggressive dance back and forth between us; however I do not feel it is my right to potentially destroy my parents' marriage by publicising what's going on.

I'm basically wondering, from women in long marriages, what you would want if this were your husband, and what issues might be important for me to consider? Should I remain quiet, talk to my father privately, tell my mum - what?

Curiousnamechange I have not confused cause and effect at all.

I work in domestic abuse service provision and am qualified to facillitate the Freedom Programme. I know all about the causes and effects of domestic abuse, and have spent many hours training and studying to gain that knowledge.

And I repeat: Repressed sexuality does not cause emotional abuse. Neither does negative childhood experiences. While we're at it, neither does alcohol, or unemployment, or low self esteem. These things can sometimes be exacerbating factors but they are not the cause. The cause of any sort of domestic abuse is the desire on the part of the perpetrator to control and dominate his partner and family and his underlying belief that he is entitled to do so.

What you describe isn't causal MYODD. Alcohol you have accurately described as an exacerbating factor but things like having a secret life, being abused as a child, having a mental health problem, arguably depression triggered by unemployment etc and other things are what cause abusers to feel entitled to abuse and control. I really am at a loss as to how you are qualified to administrate the freedom program if you don't understand this, surely this is very basic!

From what I understand helping victims of abuse doesn't actually involve immediately helping them to empathise with their abuser - this is really counter productive to people still being abused who are likely to over empathise and excuse the abuser anyway which might explain why you are saying what you say... But still, I don't see how anyone could actually believe what you are saying, it is illogical. It basically says the person is born wanting to control someone and being an abuser and then if they are abused they become even more abusive or more likely to abuse. Alcohol is an exacerbating factor because it lowers inhibitions and is linked to aggressive behaviour. A history of abuse, repression of feelings, mental illness etc are causal factors because they make the abuser feel entitled to abuse and control as you describe, change normal behavioural boundaries and/or reduce their capacity for empathy etc

We aren't dealing with the possibility of the op having been a victim here, that is up to her to think about. We are dealing with helping her to understand what to do if her mum is being abused which is a different thing altogether.

I am qualified to facillitate The Freedom Programme because I have been trained to do so and I know what I'm talking about.

And I'm afraid curiousnamechange that you're wrong. What gives abusers the sense of entitlement to dominate and control is a patriarchal society that tacitly condones such behaviour. A society that still gives men the unspoken message that they are the kings of their castle, and that women exist for their convenience and pleasure. That a real man is tough and manly and can expect his family to be "respectful" (read subservient) to him. So I am not saying that people are born wanting to abuse at all, but that domestic abuse is a product of the society we live in.

Neither am I dismissing out of hand all the things that you mention. I have said before that mental health problems and past abuse can be exacerbating factors, and they can. But they are not the root cause of abuse, and actually the opinion that they are is extremely dangerous because it enables abusers to deny responsibility for their actions, and encourages survivors to feel sympathy and responsibility towards those that abuse them.

I agree, it is the underlying sense of entitlement that is at the root of abuse. Plus the desire to dominate.

Curious -- I agree about all the rest of the issues that are here. It's a lot to deal with all at once.

Therapist and writer Joe Kort has a practice specialising in gay sexuality issues and has a site that attempts to help both LGBT individuals and those close to them (most of whom are genuinely shocked when a spouse comes out).

A selection of reading material here check the whole page for other titles too that your mother may be interested in, on the experience of straight wives of gay husbands. Carol Grever, Amity Pierce Buxton and Bonnie Kaye are the authors -- but read the customer reviews; I agree with a lot of the criticisms. You're What?! by Heather Cram has a good deal of common sense advice about the nuts and bolts of picking up your life afterwards. The Straight up Truth about Down Low Betrayal by Joy Marie may be the best one I came across, very well researched and really 'straight up' about the double life your father may be leading, what's out there, how consuming it can become. On the Amazon site, look at the 'Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought...' section for other titles. Maybe buy some of these and leave one lying around where your mum would find it?

As a general comment on my own experience of dealing with the aftermath of discovery, that may also be useful for TF, it is difficult in this PC world to voice criticism of gay men regardless of dreadful treatment of others and regardless of any lack of personal integrity they may have shown in their relationships (cheating, deceit etc). Even therapists may find it hard to validate your perceptions of abuse once the gay aspect of things is revealed. I think this has been amply demonstrated by some of the posts on this thread.

MYODD- that is just total tosh. If it were true there would be no abusive women, all abusers would be male and all men would be abusers since we all live in the same society. I would say a patriarchal society is an exacerbating factor rather than strictly causal because it allows emotionally abusive men to further entitle themselves to abuse, abused women to more easily tolerate abuse and people around to excuse abuse. It however doesn't cause people to abuse - patriarchy is not abuse in itself.

Sorry, dont know why I got involved with this... It isn't helpful!

Patriarchy sets the scene for acceptance of 'male privilege', and keeps all others in 'their place' behind or beneath men though.

It was a patriarchal society that accepted and promoted the 'rule of thumb' notion that a man could beat his wife (who was a chattel of his after all and not legally an adult human) for any transgression as he saw fit. It's not abuse in itself, but it is oppression.

Lundy Bancroft, in 'Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men' makes a very good case for a sense of entitlement as the foundation of abuse, and that sense of entitlement comes partly from culture and partly from personality quirks and experiences in the formative years.

The vast majority of abusers are male, and when women abuse - which they sometimes do - the dynamics are different because society does not tacitly condone their sense of entitlement. The abuse of men by women is a separate issue and tends to be motivated by different factors.

Domestic abuse is also far more common than most people think. Of course not all men are abusers but my argument does not suggest that they would be, simply that domestic abuse when it does occur is a product of the patriarchal society we live in, which is true.

If you think that is just total tosh, may I suggest you take it up with the founder of The Freedom Programme and the many women who have devoted their professional lives to supporting and empowering the survivors of domestic abuse. The role of patriarchy in the widespread occurence of domestic abuse the world over is one of the first things you learn in basic training as a Women's Aid worker.

I'm not really prepared to discuss this anymore as I feel we have hijacked the op's thread, and that this conversation may not be particularly helpful to her.

Sorry op. I hope you have found the thread in general helpful. I really do wish you all the best.

In the context of the time though math the rule of thumb was an anti DV legislation about the protection of women. It was the beginning of change and the first (very small) recognition of the rights of women. It might seem horrific in the context of modern society but at the time to curtail a man's right to beat a woman any way he saw fit was quite a big leap and was actually a law against the patriarchy not a promotion of the patriarchy who would clearly be keener on the previous status quo.

How is this helping the op?

This isn't helping the OP

I can't believe how incredibly judgemental posters have been on this thread.

Comments about how the OP should be living independently at his/her age. Remarks about how they shouldn't concern themselves with the (horribly dysunctional and abusive) dynamics of their parents' relationship.

My SIL still lives at home at the age of 43. She has never left home and has only had the same job from the age of 17. She has no friends and has never had a romantic "relationship" either.

MIL is seriously disabled. FIL was an abusive bastard throughought DH and Sils's childhood.

FIL was violent towards MIL and the kids for years. He had a stroke 20 years ago, turned into a meek pussycat, and is currently undergoing cancer treatment. He does EVERYTHING around the house now. DSIL also has chronic health issues plus OCD and anxiety problems and is barely functional, apart from holding down her job.

DSIL has lived with her parents all her adult life to protect her mother from her father's behaviour. I can't pretend I'd make the same choices in her situation, but there you go.

The OP is trying to deal with an abusive domestic situation. End of.

Just because you are over the age of consent doesn't mean you abnegate all feelings of responsiblity for your parents.

Abuse hobbles children in many ways.

If the definition of abuse is one of our parents behaving in a less than ideal way to the other, 95% of us have been abused.

I do not believe that most children are mentally scarred by seeing a parent viewing pornography. It is just a part of growing up; we discover our parents to be flawed human beings. If we remain stuck in the moment when we discover that our parents are not the all powerful saints we believed them to be as small children, then that becomes our problem, not theirs.

Entitlement is a word much used on MN to describe males acting selfishly. However, entitlement perfectly describes the idea that one can live off one's parents well into adulthood, share their possessions and then make judgements about what they do with their spare time and how they treat one another.

I realise as a relatively new poster here I may get jumped on, but having followed this discussion for the last few days, I wanted to just comment on a couple of things, not that my point of view is particularly unique to the thread mind...

One of the things I have picked up on in regards to the OP is that they are, like their father, essentially controlling their mother, by withholding the knowledge that they have in relation to her family and marriage. My moral opinions about policing someone else's use of a computer aside, I am wondering whether this idea that the OPs mother is far too sensitive/unintelligent/ blinded to possibly see the truth is something she herself has cultivated as part of a manipulative family dynamic, or whether it is the influence of the father.

Either way, I know that I, as an adult, and we are talking about all parties involved in this being adults, would be extremely unhappy at the thought of all this discussion going on about something so instrumental in my life, I would feel that my child was trying to hold what they know about the situation over my head as some sort of power play, and I am sure I would feel even more like this if I was involved in an emotionally abusive marriage.

I understand that on the face of it the motive may appear to be the protection of the mother in all of this, but looking deeper, it seems more about the OP and their fathers relationship, pulling out feelings of helplessness, domination, secrecy, power, control and resentment... And judging by the previous posts about family life in this household, it is probably justifiable to an extent, but surely something that should be learnt from this is to develop the ability for some inner reflection (once you have made your decision on your mothers right to know?)

"I do not believe that most children are mentally scarred by seeing a parent viewing pornography. "

Oh my good god. I've heard it all now. A parent viewing porn in front of child (under age),or engaging in any sexual activity in feont of a child, is sexual abuse and is incredibly damaging. It's a very clear example of sexual abuse.

an adult child knowing a parent views porn is unpleasant but not abuse.

Maybe I misphrased (slightly). Clearly it would be v strange for a parent to openly view porn in front of their child. But a lot of children, in the pre internet era, discovered their dad's stash of porn at some point, probably in their teenage years.

How many have been damaged by it? A tiny minority, perhaps, but I would really like to see evidence that it is more than that, if you believe it is.

Total difference between witnessing the use/viewing of porn and discovering someones porn stash actually, nothing "slightly" about it, and certainly not a
topic in which there is room for miswording when making such strong assertions!

Hairy,

OK, apologies re misphrasing. I feel the OP's case is closer to the former than the latter though. Windows were minimised and files were hidden (see OP). She CHOSE to open the windows and look at hidden files.

In addition, people love to assert the damage certain behaviours cause without any real foundation, other than (at best) anecdotal evidence. There is a real victim mentality going on. People's psyches are governed by both genetics and the entire environment they grow up in. You cannot just say "this is very damaging" about an event or even a small snapshot of a sequence of events.

Do you mot think that instead of getting bogged dow with the specifics of this case, it might be more helpful to broaden the discussion as to how much "say" an adult child living at home should have in what they regard as their parent's bad habits- which may be kept a secret from their spouse?

To give an example- my dad smokes- not many but he does. (He's 85 btw). I hate this and so does my mother. She knows but for some time it was only a suspicion as she thought he had given up. (He only smokes in the shed.)

So what if I had hidden his fags, tried to stop him doing it- and then agonised over whether to tell my mother?

In addition it is a very "traditional" marriage with him always having the final say on anything to do with money- she is not allowed to arrange help with the house, garden, etc etc unless he agrees and only very recently did he allow her to have access to a joint account.

I know that I don't live there, but even if I did, i don't think it would have been my place to interfer or try to change what they did.

Now I know that some of you might say oh this is not the same as porn- but the principle is exactly the same.

larryyou generalised though without supporting evidence. People with direct experience of damage caused by something particular will call you on that.

No, not really, cabbage that would be to derail the thread from the predicament the op is asking about.

Hairy,

"call me"? On the telephone? What a horrid american expression. Personal experience is a bad basis for any kind of science. And, the way people are discussing this, in psychological terms, they are talking as if they were scientists.

And, of course, people who are wallowing in their victimhood will strongly disagree because it challenges their entire modus vivendi. We have created a culture where anything anyone does gets a label and can be said to cause long term damage. No-one has died and no-one has actually been abused (in the sense of the term the man on the Clapham Omnibus would understand).

Sometimes the most helpful thing to say to someone is "move on, get your own life". Not popular on these forums, I know.

larry I agree

The one thing that has really riled me about many posts here are:
-people drawing solely on their own baggage as a means of offering a solution
-people donning a psychoanalyst's or psychiatrist's hat- when they are not qualified to wear either.

I am afraid I get very pissed off when the words such as narcissm, abuse, entitlement, etc are bandied about by people who have simply read a book, or something online about these traits and then start applying them here, as if they are experts.

Oh dear, larry please don't resort to patronising. This is not personal it's a serious thread . For all you know I am American.

But the thread isn't about science. The op
asked directly for the experiences if people in long term relationships who have similar experiences.