My father (married 25 years) frequently "secretly" using gay porn

[TotallyFrozen]

Hi all, I am so grateful for the name change feature on this. I am posting here because hopefully there are many women on here who would be in a similar-length marriage to my mother and it is her welfare that I am concerned about here. Sorry this will be long-ish.

In a nutshell: My father is an unlikeable and difficult person. He rarely helps around the house, usually disagrees with whatever is said seemingly for the sake of being difficult, gets very angry and defensive if anyone criticises him (screams, makes threats towards you, threatens to leave), and spends his days rotating between sleeping, eating, watching TV, and using the computer. Unfortunately the feeling that I and my sibling have towards him is contempt, even though we wish we could have a good relationship with him. He has some good points (financial contributions, nice towards our pets). He has a history of falling out with others but always blames them, and has few friends or people he gets along with. The "narcissistic personality disorder" description rings very true for him (and I say this as someone who works in the mental health field). This description is basically "the tip of the iceberg".

My mother, whilst an imperfect human like all of us, is a kind and caring woman who is very selfless and giving.

The problem: My father is constantly looking up gay porn on the home computer. He has been doing this for probably 13 years, though my sibling and I only became certain of it around 2-3 years ago. Previously we attributed things we found (videos/ pictures hidden away in folders, constant viruses on the computer, etc.) to viruses, etc. He has been doing this since we were both children. Once we realised what was happening, we decided to install K9 (a child internet protection program) on all our home computers to at least stop the behaviour in the house. I know that there may be an argument against trying to control someone's use of porn but considering his horrible behaviour at home, we felt that it was awful of him to disrespect my mum in her home in this way whilst using her for her domestic services. I am OK with being criticised for this decision and would be interested in differing perspectives. My mum is not very good with technology and has no inkling of his behaviour. He thinks he is hiding his tracks, but he is not as good as he thinks he is with technology either.

Anyway, increasingly I am realising that installing programs that prevent him from accessing these sites constantly (i.e., every night once everyone has gone to bed, during the day when no-one is behind him) is only addressing a symptom rather than the core problem. He is now searching for images on Google images and on social networking type-sites which the internet protection program cannot block without blocking ALL such sites. It really angers me that he uses and puts down my mum during the day, then goes behind her back and does this most nights. My post is prompted by the fact that he did this last night and didn't even bother trying to cover his tracks by deleting his history. Is he WANTING to be discovered? Initially I was shocked finding this out, but I've now had 3 years to become semi-desensitised to it all.

My mum describes him as "a good man, though he has his problems" and has spoken in the past about how she is happy to be part of a couple and be financially secure. Most of his behaviour, she has learnt to "let go", because he gets so nasty when criticised. It is like we all tiptoe around him. They have been married around 25 years. I'm quite sure they have no sex life anymore (I say this because he sometimes goes off for "massages" twice a week or so - they seemed legitimate but I'm aware that gay porn might not be all that he's seeking out and I wouldn't want my mum's health at risk).

My question is: What do I do? His seeking out of gay porn is pervasive and frequent; before I put K9 on our computers he was doing it constantly and just minimising the screen when someone would walk past. I haven't brought up the topic, just passive-aggressively installed K9 and refused to remove it when he asked me to. We got some new computers and he installed K9 first so he could have control over what he viewed, and was watching all the porn again. Luckily I was able to hack into it, uninstall it, and put in a new version of K9 that I have control over. It is like this ridiculous passive-aggressive dance back and forth between us; however I do not feel it is my right to potentially destroy my parents' marriage by publicising what's going on.

I'm basically wondering, from women in long marriages, what you would want if this were your husband, and what issues might be important for me to consider? Should I remain quiet, talk to my father privately, tell my mum - what?

From what you are saying your mother is taking on a kind of co-dependent role. By making light of his bad behaviour (describing him as a "good" man which completely contradicts your description of him) she is normalising his behaiviour. Given the narcissistic type of behaviour your are describing, it is not really that surprising that he should also show a lack of respect in terms of his computer use.

It seems he has shown little respect in any other area of his life, so why would he show it when it comes to his use of the computer? Your mother has already turned a blind eye to behaviour (verbal abuse etc) that many other wives would find unacceptable.

Maybe you could hint that you have found evidence of your father looking at some rather unsavoury webites and see whether your mother was prepared to take the bait and press you further. I think it is likely that she would not.

I don't think there is much you can do, really, apart from disengaging as much as possible. Maybe drop a few hints to your mother and see how she reacts, but I think she has adopted the ostrich approach for a long time and will continue to do so.

Even if your father were to have acted upon the evidence that you have found on the computer, your mother would only be at risk (from a sexual health point of view) if they were still having a sex life.

I know of a long standing married couple with "respectable" professional careers where the father was caught, literally, with his trousers down with another man and it became common knowledge that he had had homosexual affairs. The wife stood right by him and they are still together.

What goes on in other people's marriages, even (or perhaps especially) one's parents' marriage, is a matter for them. If you drop a few hints and your mother refuses to take the bait, I think you must assume that she is determined to adopt an ostrich role.

What is possibly strange is that your father is not even bothering to be discreet about his use of gay porn websites which perhaps is his way of telling everyone something.

I think you need to get your own laptop/computer and leave your dad to do what he wants on his own computer.

Your mother may be more aware of what is going on than you give her credit for and may be choosing to turn a blind eye to it. She may not consider it to be a problem. Or she may think that maintaining her relationship with him and her general lifestyle is worth ignoring this for.

I do understand that your knowledge of this puts you in a difficult position. There is a feeling that you ought to tell your mother. But then there are worries about upsetting her, your dad's reaction, long term future implications if they split up, maybe your mother would prefer to remain in ignorence if she currently is.

Years ago my mum confided in me that she was having an affair. Put me in an awful position but I didn't feel I could tell my dad. He found out soon enough on his own anyway. They split up soon afterwards and it has been awful for both of them that after 25 years of marriage they're both on their own, lonely in small houses with not much income.

Personally I'd rather be skint and split up with someone in these circumstances but there are plenty of people who choose to ignore stuff like this as they can't bare the thought of loosing their home, security, stability, etc. For a woman who's been married 25 years splitting up with their husband is a scary prospect. Has your mum worked, has she got an income? How would she cope living on her own? My mum can't even tune the TV in and rings up in hysterics about day to day house stuff she can't cope with.

LarryGrylls, you are confusing privacy and secrecy.

You are confusing someone's right to have his own inner life with a right to lead a double life and abuse his family along the way.

You are doing this on the basis that the father of the family deserves some sort of special respect, an argument for male privilege. It is letting a man get away with abuse because he is a man that you are arguing for; it is the same argument you have made on virtually every thread I have seen you post.

And yes, I would be advising the same if it was the mother involved with lesbian porn if such exists, and weekly lesbian trysts, with or without the rest of the abuse the OP mentioned.

The mother may or may not act based on the information she learns here, but she has a right to have all the information there is about her husband in order to come to whatever decision she makes. Keeping information from her is keeping her powerless.

As far as my DD goes, I feel she had every right to read her father's e-mails. I brought her up to do her best to distinguish right from wrong and I think she made the right call on this one. There are some things that are more wrong than others, and in the bigger scheme of things I think adultery and years of deceit are far worse than reading material that was hers to see at the touch of the mouse. My only regret as a parent in the situation is that she didn't tell me as soon as she found them, but instead carried it all around with her.

Viva I was a married SAHM for 17 years and divorced with 5 children. It is possible to do better than your mum I do feel sorry for her though. Most women manage ok and get back on their feet eventually.

Whether this man is casually leaving porn out for anyone to see or not

gaahhh

Whether this man is casually leaving porn out for anyone to see or not, he will probably deny that he is gay and TotallyFrozen will wonder what sort of twilight zone she is living in for a while. Admitting all is the most unlikely reaction to expect from her father. He is likely to blame her for planting porn, to rage at her for interfering and 'snooping' (see Larry's comments), and to behave badly in general. It would be advisable for the OP and her siblings and their mother to be ready to talk with Women's Aid or some other counsellors as they deal with the fallout, or to broach this subject with their mother in the context of family counselling.

Mathanxiety - I would agree but as far as I am aware it hasn't been established that the dad is doing anything the mum doesn't allow or that he is actually having extra marital relationships. I think it looks very suspiscious but it hasn't been confirmed so really there isn't much to tell the mum at this stage is there? Just that gay porn has been found on the computer which he can easily explain and could drive a wedge between the OP and the mother further putting the mother at risk of abuse.

Yes, it really is a pandora's box, and nothing will be the same after the revelation is made. But it is horrible for a child to be in any way complicit in a parent's secret, and no matter what way things develop after the mother is told, no matter what transpires as far as who knew what, and for how long, TotallyFrozen needs to unburden herself, and I think she will never find rest here until she knows her mother knows.

What the mother does afterwards is out of TF's hands of course -- this is the point where she must allow her parents to make their own decisions and deal with those decisions herself. This is where counselling for TF and her siblings would be really useful. Counselling would be useful even without the porn issue here, as it seems there is an absence of conversation in the family about the generally abusive element in the family 's life and getting it all out in the open and finding help in dealing with it, while painful, helps immensely in the long run. None of this should be undertaken without support ready and available for the mother and the children here.

But saying the revelation should not be made in case the father kicks off is playing into his hands. Secrets and fear of revelations are a big part of the dynamic of abuse within families.

I think it's highly likely the mother does not know and I think she needs to, both from the pov of her own health (no-one but the mother and father here know if their relationship is entirely sexless after all), and no-one but the man knows if there has been any unprotected extramarital sex of any kind involved, and from the pov of moving forward armed with all the relevant facts.

I'm with ma all the way here.

Math- don't you think you are encouraging ths "child" who must be in their 20s- to be very selfish? You are suggesting they unburden themselves- but at what cost to the mother? That's pure selfishness.

It's no different from the hundreds of threads here about someone discovering their neighbour/friend etc is having an affair and should they tell the husband. The overriding response is always "NO!".

It's not selfish to give someone information that might well empower them, and it's very damaging to keep a secret as big as this.

Whether the DD/OP here is 16 or 26, I would say that far from selfishness, there is a duty to tell. I think the instinct to tell the mother is a healthy one, and untarnished by selfishness. The mother is embroiled in an abusive situation, and this may enable her to see a way out for herself. As I said though, telling is as far as the duty goes; afterwards it's up to the mother how she deals with it.

There has clearly been some parentification of the children going on in this family (TF has taken it upon herself to install K9 on the family's computers and desires to protect her mother from feeling the effects of her father's choices, and mentions other aspects of the family life which are abusive); that needs to stop because it is not good for anyone. Putting a spanner in the dynamic will help TF and her sibling begin to cast off the responsibility they feel for their mother.

It is not good for children, even adult or almost adult adult children to shoulder a parent's burden or protect a parent. This may sound brutal, but when roles are reversed in a family (it often happens when there is abuse) a blight is cast upon the lives of the children, no matter what age they are, that is hard to recover from -- TF has a duty to herself here too, to try to reclaim her life and a more normal role in the family than the one she has assumed. Maintaining the status quo by not telling the mother is simply not a role that should be thrust on her. She needs to place the information in the hands in which it belongs and then step back to take care of her own self and let her mother take care of her own self.

"It's not selfish to give someone information that might well empower them, and it's very damaging to keep a secret as big as this."

Oh it is. When the reason for doing so is to "unburden" that person.

Who is being damaged?

What is the "big secret"- the father viewing gay porn?

Why are you not questioning the morality of spying on a parent's behaviour and censoring what they are doing?

You have really got your wires crossed with this one.

I think perhaps it should also be pointed out that where other types of abuse exist in a relationship, ie emotional, threat of physical - there is often sexual abuse aswell.

Op says she is sure there is no physical relationship between her parents but she cannot know this. My personal feeling is that this man leaving his virtual porn lying around, knowing that his own children may see it, is a form of sexual abuse. It is deeply unsettling behaviour.

It is perfectly possible that he is also sexually abusing his wife. His sexual orientation will have nothing to do with whether this is or isn't happening. Sexual abuse, like all other kinds of abuse is about power and control, not desire.

So op's concern about her mothers sexual heath is a perfectly reasonable one I think.

OMG- and people accused me of extrapolating! Now he is abusing his wife!

For the last time surely, the OP is not a child- they must be 21+ to be a post grad.

I'm leaving this now- too many amateur psychs around.

Is parentification even a real word?

He is abusing his wife Cabbageroses. That much has been established.

I simply said that it was therefore possible that he was sexually abusing her aswell. It is.

frozen you need to move out. You are
an adult and this is not your responsibility. If your dad is trying to make it your responsibility you need to get
away. As does your sibling.

You don't want to openly tackle your father. You don't know if your mum knows or would want to know. So...

'Mum, I don't know what's going on with this computer but every time I turn it on it seems that someone has been on gay porn sites. There hasn't been anyone visiting the house when I'm not home has there?'

If she wants to find out she will ask more. If she doesn't she will 'pretend' she doesn't understand.

Yes, Cabbageroses, parentification is a real word, a real phenomenon, and a really damaging aspect of an abusive home.

I'm with mathanxiety too.

Cabbageroses, there is a hierarchy of rights and wrongs here as far as I can see. Adultery is very high on the list of wrongs, as is deceit of a spouse about one's sexual orientation and abuse of the spouse and children. Way down the list of wrongs comes alleged 'spying' and installing K9 on the computers. It is ridiculous to suggest there is any equivalence between what the OP is doing and what her father is doing.

Clearly OPs dad is a shit, by what she says, outside of the porn thing, and is so intertwined in her parents lives that she can not actually see any boundaries. And presumably there are none in this dysfunctional family.

So with the mix of being a shit dad (though nice to pets, wtf?) and a gay porn user is making life a tad complicated for OP.

Answer for the porn, do you feel its an conscious or unconscious attempt to abuse you? If so, deal with it head on, your mum is an adult...if her husband is displaying porn for all to see then its a pubic subject, just be prepared for the denial and blame heading your way....

Otherwise, like everyone else says, move out, get a good therapist and move on.

Porno addicted dads with no boundaries and their enabling partners are not great parents, but hey, them's the breaks. Deal with it, but don;t make it your fight.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

perfumeditsawonderfullife and Nyx - it would seem, from my dad's behaviour, that he either wants to be found out, or doesn't think that others are capable of putting two and two together/ thinking or wondering about the things they find on a computer - i.e., if we see a minimised window, it's as though he thinks we're never going to click on it or read its title - or that we are but we're not going to think/ deduce anything? Like we don't have minds of our own? What I don't understand is, if he's not covering his tracks, why is he also so secretive? Why does he minimise windows when we walk past? I'm not a twin - :) - but I envy the person you dated, Nyx, because with the internet, it's like people have so much more capacity to indulge whatever they want to, and they don't necessarily keep it private. I do think my mum seems relatively content and has learnt to cope with the way my dad behaves.

cabbageroses - it is very possible that they have agreements that I am not aware of, and of course that's none of my business if they do. But that still leaves the question of why he's so obsessive (i.e., looking at it during the day when the family is up and about) and careless (i.e., not hiding his tracks) with his seeking out of gay porn. It just seems odd. Regarding the whole term "abuse" - I think I've used it once in my posts, in terms of how he talks to my mum, but I REALLY don't want to be "the adult child living at home whining about her abusive father" - I don't think his treatment of ME or my sibling is so relevant. I think that while my sibling and I have one view of his behaviour, my mum would have another, and my dad would have another - he would probably say that he is a victim, that we all criticise him too much, that he's unfairly expected to be perfect. He has done some pretty awful things but I just don't want to wheel that out as I'm not sure it's relevant to my dilemma, which is purely about whether or not it is better to talk to my mum in the situation I'm in, or just stay quiet and keep "keeping my dad's secret", if that's what it is. Regarding later posts, and your suggestion that I just go up and talk to my father if I'm upset about this - can you contemplate that there are people in this world who would NOT react well to that? That not everyone would be capable of a mature and non-violent response to such an awkward and personal issue that creates so much vulnerability and embarrassment for him? If there is a risk of a violent response, is it worth it to still try to talk maturely to him about this, when I've had so many experiences of failure in the past trying to talk about much less sensitive topics? There are computers at uni, yes... and at my workplace.

Curiousnamechange - thank you for your input. It's wonderful that you love your dad so much. :) I don't think it would be a good idea for me and my sibling to "gang up on him", which is how he might see it. This thread has actually really helped me in having empathy for my dad, if he truly is a man who has been repressed by society's expectations and feels miserable as a result. I think he lashes out the way he does because it gets him what he wants - people get scared into silence and back off. I have tried so hard in the past to deal with issues in a sympathetic, respectful, non-confrontational way. For instance I have tried thanking him for the good things he does, I have tried to help him lose weight because he is unhealthily obese and has a lot of health problems as a result. He gets angry and says I am patronising him, when I'm not intending to. Yes, he has a history of being violent although he stopped, bar a few incidents, once we both reached high school. I think he would deny everything if I said anything to him about the porn. Regarding your later post about perceived abuse - I don't know. One vivid experience I have from when I was young (7 or 8 years old?) was him driving me about and I was crying in the back seat, and he was telling me that my behaviour could drive him to kill himself, and was describing this in detail - e.g., dropping me off, just disappearing. I was not a bad kid. Is that a normal parent pushed to the limits, or an abusive parent? I don't know. He never mentioned this afterwards or apologised. He has done other similar things and to be honest, behaved worse towards my sibling. By the way, thank you very much for your kind words and speaking in my defense! (If I tried to do that I would be here forever.) Generally, whether or not my father is "abusive", I agree with you when you say it doesn't really matter. It's not the central issue here.

MakeYerOwnDamnDinner - thank you so much. In terms of my own emotions about all this, I have a bit of a "put up and shut up" attitude which may make me seem a bit cold/ detached when I write. I really don't want to list everything that goes on in the house. I do agree with you that if I try to "strike up" any kind of discussion about this (and honestly, why on earth have I been put in this situation where this is something I have to consider?!?!) he could lash out. The only thing stopping him now, I assume, is that we're big enough to fight back and old enough to know how inappropriate that way of dealing with things is. You are VERY right that I should not feel responsible for maintaining this kind of "walking on eggshells status quo", which I, to some extent, do. I'm sure my sibling feels the same way. I do feel like a domestic abuse organisation might be going too far and my mum would think it's crazy/ unnecessary - it is not so clear cut when the person is not beating everyone regularly, etc.

EldritchCleavage - thanks for making that point. Also keep in mind my sibling is equally knowledgeable about what is going on. If that is what he is trying to do I don't really understand his behaviour. I really am erring towards thinking that he just thinks we're so stupid, we wouldn't notice his sloppiness/ carelessness. He can be very lazy - I described his daily routine in my first post - sleeping, eating, TV, computer, repeat - he doesn't even indicate anymore when he's driving. It is possible that he is just continuing to reduce the effort he puts into covering his tracks, because no matter how sloppy he gets, nobody says anything, thus reinforcing his behaviour?

tadpoles - thank you, yes disengaging helps a lot. His lack of discreetness is really odd. I have friends where a parent "came out" and it caused a big disruption and great distress to the family - but I genuinely believe that would be better than this, at least everything would be out in the open and people can move on.

VivaLeBeaver - thanks, it must have been terrible to have that weight on your shoulders about your mum's affair. I have a close friend whose parents are also struggling financially late in life due to splitting up, they probably can't retire until they're in their 70s. The mum in that couple regrets the split despite instigating it, and never re-partnered whereas the father did quite quickly. My mum actually contributes more financially than my dad, but she would probably struggle with some more practical aspects of living alone, plus the lack of company, having someone to holiday with, etc.

mathanxiety - you have a very good intuition regarding understanding the family dynamic/ predicting likely responses and behaviours of my father. And a very healthy attitude, and a wealth of knowledge, that I would do well to learn from.

hairyfairylights - thanks, I agree.

Slambang - excellent suggestion, thank you.

MadameDefarge - ha, in many ways your post is exactly what I think. "Nice to pets" = writing some good points, trying to be balanced. I don't want to paint my dad as some kind of hellish demon. He is just very difficult. I TOTALLY agree that "them's the breaks". Things could be better, they could be A LOT worse. That's why I don't want to dwell on myself. I just want to know what would be best for my mum.

dittany - thanks very much. I don't view myself as a "child" and don't think my dad has "forced" us to look at his gay porn. But he hasn't concealed it from us either - and he didn't protect us from it when we were children, with my sibling finding stuff on the computer. I think it's more a matter of a lack of boundaries/ respect/ consideration. I really don't want to see the stuff my dad has been looking at when I use the family computer.

I think it does need to publicly be said that I am not male - just to stop unnecessary speculation/ wasted time by other posters in writing responses based on that assumption. But if I keep trying to address every false assumption, insistence on believing things that aren't true and that I've said aren't true, etc., it would be pointless and a waste of time and it also would piece by piece reveal more and more about the specifics of my situation. I've received a lot of really good advice here, thank you. I won't just disappear so if anyone has any good advice/ perspectives I would be very interested in continuing to hear them.

The things you are afraid of:

1. Uncontrollable angry reaction from him.

You can't control this. What you can do is have your phone turned on and call the police if this happens.

1. Divorce and him leading a very lonely life (few friends, few family members who tolerate him - yes he's not the perfect father but I don't hate him, I would feel really bad about causing that).

This is not your responsibility. You would not have caused that. He chose that for himself. Your father is a grown up and can look after himself.

1. He may start engaging in real-world behaviour if he hasn't already, possibly leading to risks for him.

You may take it as a given that he is having sex with men and probably has been for years. And again, this is his choice, his choice alone. You are not responsible for this choice of his. You could not stop him even if you tried.

1. He and my mum would each be half as well-off financially as they were before.

Finances are only one aspect of someone's life. Again, it is not for you to decide whether this is something your mum might happily trade off for a life where she would no longer have to put up with your father's contempt for you all. Even if she decides to keep on putting up with it, at least you will know she could possibly change her mind when she is emotionally ready to, and you will know she knows exactly what she is dealing with.

You both have needs wrt this information -- she needs it and has a right to know it, and you have a right to feel as a daughter that you can confide this big secret to your parent. You have a right to be a daughter and not a protector of anyone's secret, a protector of your mum's financial security, or a maintainer of the status quo.

TF, I hope you will seek out counselling for yourself and I hope your sibling will too. There are enormous issues here stemming from the abuse your father has meted out to you, not just the issue of to tell or not to tell, and also from the role your mother has played in your life to now.

Your father is a highly abusive man, and a narcissist through and through (and maybe more -- read and think). The incident when he threatened suicide to you when you were 8, making you feel responsible for whether he lived or died was one of the most horrifying incidents of emotional abuse and child abuse I have ever read. You have been cast in the role of parent, and more, here.

Yet you were simultaneously told by him that you did not matter at all to him, that you were invisible to him, that your feelings and sensibilities were nothing to him, and that he owed you no parental or fatherly love or duty of protection; this is also the message he conveys by leaving out the porn -- it is not there in order to tell anyone the truth about himself; it is there in order to make you and your sibling and anyone else who knows, feel emotionally erased and completely denied as human beings.

Bloody brilliant post mathanxiety. OP, you sound so together; I'm sure you'll get through it.
Your father has conditioned you from an early age to feel responsible for him; it seeps through your posts, your responsibility for his decision-making, for the way he makes your mum feel, for the possibility of him ending up alone..
BUt the truth is that only he is responsible for all those things. This is quite difficult for an adult child of an abusive parent to realise and come to terms with, but I think you're on the path.
Moving out, putting some distance between yourself and your father will definitely help with this process.

TF- I have replied to your PM.
Given that you feel the threat of violence, is there any way you can talk to your father in a public setting?

His behaviour seems to indicate he is addicted to porn and is also taking a risk using it so much at home. Both could be seen as "cries for help".

I think you need to start acting as an adult- which means learning to be assertive. Telling tales about your father- which is what is amounts to if you tell your mum, so SHE has to deal with it , not you- is both cowardly and immature. You are in fact making YOUR problem hers.

In your head you have convinced yourself that you would be doing this as "she needs to know" but in relality you would be doing it to let yourself off the hook .

It is more than likely, however hard it may be to imagine, that your parents would close ranks and you would be left feeling worse.

I gather your mum has not given any indication that she is unhappy, or that she wishes to leave the marriage? If so, your worries are supposition.

Dittany please read carefully The OP is not a child- they are almost mid 20s. It may be tactless to do this but it is not abuse.

Math unless you are a qualified psychiatrist or psychotherapist, it is not helpful to attach labels such as narcissm to people about whom you know next to nothing, and even if youw ere qualified you have only 1 side of the story.

I think advice to you to move out and leave them to it is totally lacking in empathy! I wouldn't want to leave my mother at the mercy of an NPD.