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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to Statley Homes" Dysfunctional families thread

1000 replies

MummieHunnie · 15/12/2010 13:15

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
thisishowifeel · 17/03/2011 09:06

Thank you all for your support and hugs and as ever, amazing insight.

A new thing though is being able to work through it with the help and support and love of DH, which is something that, this time last year, I would NEVER had thought would be. Miracles DO happen.

We decided that it was like defragging my psyche. Not unlike Goo I suppose! Like Pete Walker says though, every time this happens, it is an OPPORTUNITY to heal a bit more. I think that crying and three glasses of wine was excellent handling of the situation.

There would be no way of knowing if she had given me dodgy food on purpose, but it is very strange that I had bout after bout of poisoning as a baby, one occasion I was told that it was from black pudding. I can't imagine giving a baby raw black pudding. It never seemed to have affected anyone else.

It's very strange, knowing what's happening as it is happening, and working my way through the list, telling myself what it was and not to be afraid.

Lysithia, Happy Birthday! x

Garlic, yes through IS the only way. That's what happened to me yesterday isn't it?

Hello Rubberduck. Oh it's all SOOOOOOfamiliar! Keep chipping away at that iceberg.

TMSB, you can come and help chip the paint of the radiator with me if you like, we could hide together.

Thank you all again. I look like shit this morning, such huge swollen, red eyes. But it's progress.

thisishowifeel · 17/03/2011 09:10

Attila is quite correct. The damage they do is dreadful. Labelling, having favourites etc. Don't allow her to trash their little minds with narc nonsense.

And forget Mother's day too. Mothers are supposed to be nurturing, kind, gentle purveyors of unconditional love. That's the point of mother's day, to thank those mothers for that unconditional love. Is that what your mother gives you and her gc's? Nope.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 09:37

Thank you so much for your replies, Attila and thisishowifeel. It's really appreciated.

Funnily enough it was that website that sparked me looking into this more deeply. I wasn't ready to post myself but found a similar post in relationships and you'd recommended that site. I read it virtually slack-jawed in shock as I realised "shit, she does that... and that... and THAT".

Ds1 is 9 years old, ds2 is 6. I'm an only child (which makes it so much easier for her to tell me I'm overreacting - I have no sibling to compare experiences with and ask "did I imagine that?")

I also have caller ID, but seem to get a huge amount of INTERNATIONAL and UNAVAILABLE numbers throughout the day despite being on TPS so every time it rings my heart is in my mouth until I get over to the phone and read the ID. It feels like I'm jumpy all day at the moment, which is clearly ridiculous.

I'm so mixed up about the cutting off thing at the same time totally agreeing with your advice. There's one part of me (the petulant child, I guess) that's really really angry and internally screaming at her "now you'll pay" and the other part of me saying she doesn't know she's doing this, that cutting her off out of spite is wrong, that I'm her only child and she'll be on her own. I don't think either of my inner voices are being particularly helpful. And again, I don't want to put my kids in a position where they feel they have to take sides - I'm terrified of becoming her, and that's one of the things she has always done.

I'm really conflicted about Mothers Day. I totally see where you're coming from. But if I send nothing then it's another stick she can beat me with. "See - she's a terrible daughter. She didn't even send me anything for Mothers Day". I can totally see her dragging in the rest of the family over that.

I think I would benefit from counselling, but I really can't afford it right now :(

Argh. I'm talking myself round in circles aren't I?

Snowdropfairy · 17/03/2011 09:40

Thisishowifeel (((hugs))))

I haven't read every post but will in a bit.

I have name changed its findingthepath. I erven sored out my profile Grin

I'm having a wobble but i'm ignoring it and trying to carry on as normal - i'm faking it again.

I called my mum on st davids day so my son could say hi but she was horrible to me so my husband hung up on her.

Its mother day soon and i hate it. I'm not sending that bitch anything. Me on the other hand will have a kindle and a nice meal with my family.

My husband might lose his job, my son has weed on the new sofa and i'm going to tumbletots for the fiorst time and i'm scared shitless of meeting new people. My sister is haveing a cSession on the 29th and i'm not going over to see her. My SIL is having her baby in April and they are all comparing my son.

My brother the golden boy will get everything for their son and mine didn't even get a phone call on his birthday. It sucks big time but thats them not me.

I do feel better for not speeking to them. But i still think its me most of the time.

I'm trying to get my husbands friends to go camping in the summer with us but there are not intreasted. we went on holiday to scotlend then the next year they go with my bil and dont tell us, then they go to lock n load for my husbands birthday and then they go a lot and now not invite husband and it just sucks. It feels like no one likes me but i try so hard to be nice and firendly but no one wants to know me.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 09:45

"Would also suggest you stop trying to get her approval as well." - just reread and fixed on this.

I know I shouldn't need it. I've told myself this over and over again. And the big thing I felt when I realised she was a narcissist was grief. I'm never going to make her see what she does or get her to like me or recognise my achievements. She won't change. That shouldn't upset me as nearly as much as it does.

Snowdropfairy · 17/03/2011 09:49

Its ok to feel grief. You have the idea of what a normal mum i9s in your head and you have your mum and the two will never be the same one.

I always feel the grief of not having the mum i need or want. Even half of what a normal mum would be enough for me but its never going to happen.

I cant make my mum care about me or act normal and that makes me upset and there is nothing i can do about it.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 12:01

Thank you Snowdropfairy. It's daft, but I feel more of a mess from what I've learned in the last couple of weeks from reading up about narcissism than I did from the original row. It just feels so bloody final and without hope.

I'm really appreciating the feedback and also reading through the rest of these threads. I have lurked on relationships quite a bit around the parent topics. You've all been so helpful in more ways than you can imagine.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 13:16

Hi Rubberduck,

re your comment:-

"There's one part of me (the petulant child, I guess) that's really really angry and internally screaming at her "now you'll pay" and the other part of me saying she doesn't know she's doing this, that cutting her off out of spite is wrong, that I'm her only child and she'll be on her own. I don't think either of my inner voices are being particularly helpful.

Indeed they are not helpful voices. You can't even begin to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist; it is not possible and the goalposts always move in the narc's favour. You are but a piece of furniture to this woman. I'll find some more for you to read on this.

"And again, I don't want to put my kids in a position where they feel they have to take sides - I'm terrified of becoming her, and that's one of the things she has always done".

You're not making them take sides; infact you are protecting them from your narcissistic mother if you go no contact with her. Your mother is already showing overt favorutism towards your two boys now; it will affect their relationship particularly in adulthood particularly if you allow her to continue as she is doing.

You won't become her because you have qualities that she does not have - empathy for a start (your mother has no empathy) along with the knowledge that you know what she is doing is wrong.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 13:22

Some excerpts that I have found helpful:-

Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people's opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods. Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they'll never share a dream for two.

Now, it is possible to have a relatively smooth relationship with a narcissist, and it's possible to maintain it for a long time. The first requirement for this, though, is distance: this simply cannot be done with a narcissist you live with. Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.

It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you.

So, yes, it's possible to get along with narcissists, but it's probably not worth bothering with. If family members are narcissists, you have my deep sympathy. If people you work with are narcissists, you will be wise to keep an eye on them, if just for your own protection, because they don't think very well, no matter what their IQs, they feel that the rules (of anything) don't apply to them, and they will always cut corners and cheat wherever they think they can get away with it, not to mention alienating co-workers, clients, and customers by their arrogance, lies, malice, and off-the-wall griping. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will say ANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later.

If you're reading this because of problems with someone you know now, the chances are excellent that one or both of your parents was a narcissist. Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them. Sometimes narcissists' children become narcissists, too, but this is by no means inevitable, provided stable love was given by someone, such as the non-narcissist parent or grandparents. Beyond that, a happy marriage will heal many old wounds for the narcissist's child. But, even though children of narcissists don't automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent "You can't get blood out of a stone," but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart. Thus, we've been trained to keep loving people who can't love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore.)

If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. Narcissists cannot be satisfied and do a tremendous amount of damage to their children and partners in their relentless demand for a perfect outer appearance to reflect the perfect inner image that obsesses them.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 13:34

Thank you Attila. My gut reaction is just to go no no no no no and give you a ton of excuses, but I'm really needing to hear this.

(is it really evil to just wish that she'd disappear of her own accord so that I didn't actively have to make the decision?)

I think at the very least, I need to severely minimize contact from now on - with the intention of working up to no contact. I don't think I'm ready to go cold-turkey right now, if only for my own feelings of self-worth.

But maybe that's just excuses again. I dunno. Meh.

I'm also going to re-read How To Talk to Kids (etc) book. I really want my own kids to escape this cycle and really that book is my link to what's normal and healthy. I just don't feel I can trust any of my own perceptions at the moment.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 13:50

Hi Rubberduck

Ah, FOG again - fear, obligation, guilt on your part. These understandable feelings are truly misplaced btw when it coems to your mother.

No its not evil to think that she would disappear but this ain't going to happen unfortunately. So you need to find another way forward If you have any contact I would suggest it is purely and only on your own terms with a view to going no contact. They cannot or won't trust so will test your total devotion.

Do not leave your children alone with this woman, even to leave the room.

They can be truly nasty mouthed and evil minded individuals; I could give you some truly shocking examples of my BILs behaviour. He's still alive btw. No contact is truly the only way forward and they are truly not worth having a relationship with. They have themselves made the terrible choice not to love.

BACP do not charge the earth for their counselling services, it is something that you may well want to consider at some point.

foundwanting · 17/03/2011 14:07

Could I ask for some advice, please? If this is the wrong thread, just say.

I have gone low/minimal contact with my NPD mother over the last 8 months and am feeling so much better for it. But, it looks like she's missing her 'narc fix' and is trying to slip into our lives again.

Coming up is Mothers' Day. That weekend also happens to be my and DD's birthdays. She has booked a table for lunch at an expensive restaurant for the Monday, saying, "I suppose you'll want to do something with his mother on the Sunday and won't have time for me." She has invited/summoned my siblings to this lunch. I want to see them because we are struggling to keep in touch now that I've cut mum out of the loop. (She needs to control our contact which seems to be 'normal for narcs'.)

Money is power as far as my mother is concerned. DD and I will be showered with expensive gifts. She got it wrong with DS1 last year, he didn't recognise the labels. Grin At Christmas she made sure she left the price tags on everything!

Anyway, I don't want to deny my daughter the chance to have nice things that we couldn't afford ourselves, BUT, I don't want to have to be grateful for gifts that are trying to buy a dutiful daughter. I suppose that I just don't want to deal with her at all, really. Sad

Any top tips about dealing with either the guilt of not doing the 'right' thing for her on Mothers' Day, or the stress of getting through our birthdays without mum making it all about her?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 14:27

FW

Guilt is a useless emotion, it really is.

Do not let your mother make you dance to her tune.
Make you birthday weekend a happy occasion and without her in it. You do not have to attend her blooming lunch at Restaurant Posh on Monday either.

What is she like with your siblings; what sort of relationship do they have with her?. She is also emplying the divide and conquer strategy with them as well:(. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.

Not surprised to read about the presents; narcissists are truly crappy gift givers. Do not accept any more gifts from this woman, gifts are only given to serve her own interests and they are never without condition attached. Return all gifts unopened.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 14:31

Have also seen the crap gift giving as well, you may find this following excerpt helpful:-

"Some narcissists spend extravagantly in order to impress people, keep up grandiose pretentions, or buy favorable treatment, and some narcissists overspend, bankrupt themselves, and lose everything. My own personal experience is that narcissists are stingy, mean, frugal, niggardly to the point of eccentricity. This is a person who will be very conscious of her appearance but will dress herself and her children in used clothes and other people's cast-offs. [Note: Thrift is not in itself a narcissistic trait; neither is a fondness for old clothes. The important element here is that the narcissist buys clothes that other people she admires and wishes to emulate have already picked out, since she has no individual tastes or preferences.] These are people who need labels or trademarks (or other signs of authority) to distinguish between the real thing and a cheap knock-off or imitation, and so will substitute something easy and cheap for something precious and dear and expect nobody else to know the difference, since they can't. My BIL does this. These are people who can tell you how many miles but not how many smiles.

Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants. Thus, for instance, in a "romantic" relationship, they will want you to do what they want because they want it and not because you want it and, in fact, if you actually want to do what they want, then that's too much like sharing and you wreck their fun and they don't want it anymore. They want to get what they want from you without giving you what you want from them. Period. If you should happen to want to give what they want to get, then they'll lose interest in you.

foundwanting · 17/03/2011 14:41

Attila Thank you so much for replying.

I don't think I can go the whole no contact route. Still too new to the realisation of what she is, I think.

I'm one of 6, and her relationship with any of us depends on the level of drama in our lives. At the moment my youngest brother is getting all her energy as he has been having a particularly tricky time. As he improves though, she is looking around for more emotions to feed off.

I just wish that I could like her enough to go out for lunch, have a chat, etc. without it looming in my diary like root-canal treatment.

foundwanting · 17/03/2011 14:45

The gift-giving is a long-standing joke. Many year ago when she was buying a birthday present for my DSis, I questioned the suitability and was told, "She'll like it well enough when I tell her how much it cost."

Everything has a price to her, but nothing has any value. Sad

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 14:54

The gift-giving thing resonates with me too. I am under a lot of pressure to find her the perfect gift (if I get it wrong, I clearly didn't give it enough care or love her enough to really understand what she would like).

The reverse though is particularly stark with the children as we have to come up with ideas for her, but she wants to pick the BIG gift, the one that'll help her look fabulous as a gift-chooser. Preferably one which will outshine what me and dh are getting for our children so she can look good.

I'm only just waking up to how manipulative she has been with gifts. I thought the row over Christmas was over something silly, but it's been brewing a long time. I know Christmas and Birthdays aren't about the loot you receive (although when you're 9 and 6 it is!) and that it's about the thought that counts - but that's exactly it - she's not prepared to put any thought into it!

garlicbutter · 17/03/2011 15:21

Hi again, folks, and thank you for all the amazing posts. I just wanted to add something about the way things are going with my mother. Attila, you may disagree with me and I'm aware some mothers are so frantically insane that avoidance is the only strategy.

My mum's old and getting frailer by the month; I didn't want to cut contact absolutely. She lives nearby. I took my decision after seeking advice from two charities for the elderly. My lightbulb came on while I was living with her: a position she corneed me into, and consequently the reason I'm living here instead of where I'd prefer to be. I had several intense rows and meaningful conversations with her, which both confirmed my informal diagnosis of her and allowed her to feel she's "done everything she could" for me and our relationship.

Then I embarked on my emotional detachment. I refused her calls & visits for several months, keeping contact down to half an hour once a fortnight on my terms. During this phase I suffered from quite a bit of FOG. I was gracefully Wink supported by Stately Homers and focused my therapeutic work on my relationship with Mum. After about 4 months, she gave up on the random visits and crappy 'gifts'. She actually became quite nice ... but I didn't fall for it!

Fast forward a further 4 months, and we only speak about once a week - briefly. She visits - with prior warning - for half an hour every three weeks or so. She's had improvements made to her home and I still haven't seen them Grin

I begin each interaction with praise. I deflect gossip and any personal remarks, positive or negative. I transparently broke a triangle she'd formed with my brother. There's still one going on with a sister, but she hasn't had any lightbulb moments wrt mum (or herself). When other people talk to me about Mum, I make my viewpoint clear without going into it. I'm really quite pleased with this: I owe a lot of it to these threads.

She sometimes gives me small gifts that I like - shock! I accept them. We had a family lunch for my birthday (happy birthday to you, lysithia!), which she tried & failed to hijack. I enjoyed it a lot. I really do feel The Job Is Done :)

My therapist felt I should cut contact with the lot of them. I chose to do this in my own head, not materially. That might change but, for now, I don't give a flying fuck what any of them think about me and am able to have very small, quite distant relationships with them all, interacting only with their public faces. It suits me.

Mum knows I won't be there for her when she becomes more fragile. Again, I don't care what others will inevitably make of it. Life's getting shorter and my family has already fucked up the majority of it.
It was interesting to read the part of your quote, Attila, about having no fear of death. I'm not religious, so this has nothing to do with hell, but have never been afraid of death. I imagine this is because I haven't really felt 'alive' iyswim. If I manage to reach a point in my elderly years, when I wish I didn't have to die, I'll know my process has been successfully completed.

That was a bit of a gloomy-sounding ending but perhaps it will resonate for some other reader. I maily wanted to affirm that - in many cases - it is possible to alter the realtionship dynamic and it doesn't take as long as one might think! The biggest hurdle is facing up to the reality & ditching the lie.

garlicbutter · 17/03/2011 15:32

ps: (as if I hadn't written enough!!) I shan't be acknowledging mother's day. Because I don't care what people think. With a different mother, however, I reckon I would send a card if it was going to keep them sweet - for the same reason I praise my mum's appearance. I can't stop her being a narcissist, but I can manage her supply needs in ways that don't hurt me.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 16:05

garlicbutter: that sounds so positive, thank you for sharing that. Can I ask if there were specific techniques you used to help emotionally distance yourself?

Completely independently of my realisation of my mother's narcissistic tendencies, I'd noticed recently that I end up in perfectionist/self-destructive tendencies where I expect too much of myself, start to achieve then set myself up to fail. I'm better at catching myself now and have a little mantra along the lines of "no-one's keeping score" when I start fretting that something wasn't quite perfect enough and it's helped immensely.

I think now, that was my first attempts at countering the inner voice that is actually my mother. Any other tips to help build on this would be fantastic.

garlicbutter · 17/03/2011 16:22

I do that! Have now adopted your mantra, thank you RD :)

Yes, I've used visualisation techniques like 'cord cutting' and 'shielding'. I used my invisible shield often during my boundary-setting phase - while inside it, I'm able to look at my mum with perfect detachment to see who she really is. For me, that's been very helpful. I'm now doing the same with my sibs. Frenzied reading, diarising and discussing (on here) also supported my choice, especially when my FOG pleaded for an continued daughter-to-mother relationship.

MizzyDizzy · 17/03/2011 16:46

Oh yes...I found the 'cord cutting' visualisations very useful for emotionally detaching.

I also got told today by a very trusted friend that I live in a 'bubble'...at first I thought she meant some weird 'happy' place ... she then explained that my 'bubble' covers my home and only certain people are privy to this sanctuary.

I had no idea I had done this...so I do have a protective shield...just a rather large one that includes my chosen family.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 16:53

Those are great - love the idea of a shield/bubble. And very much 'get' the idea of home being sanctuary. We've finally moved after 4 years of trying to get this house which I fell in love with and have been feeling like I was going to burst with so much happiness when the stress was over and we were in. It's had such a good vibe.

When my mother came in with her deluge of criticism and negativity it felt like the space was violated somehow (which sounds horribly melodramatic written down). I feel awful saying it, but I don't think she could stand to see me so happy :(

My gut feeling is that I don't ever want to invite her back into my home again.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 17:10

Garlic

If what you are doing works for you currently then that's great.

My main strategy re dealing with my narc inlaws and BIL is for me to use distance emotionally and physically.

RD - my inlaws don't like seeing other people happy either. What makes them "happy" is having some drama/crisis and making it all about them. Its all so bloody tedious so I no longer engage at all with them. Am a lot happier for doing so.

garlicbutter · 17/03/2011 17:17

I think they'll just fade right out of my life, Atilla. I'm so boring, you see Wink No drama.

I love what your friend said, Mizzy. How wonderful!

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