Help needed in a seperation

[SimonHoward]

Where to start?

The begining I suppose. And with the facts.

After almost 6.5 years together, and 5 of them being married, my wife and I are in the early/middle stages of seperating. She decided earlier this year to finally tell me why the physical side of our relationship had always been terrible after the first few months, and that was because she was a lesbian and didn't like men but had been too scared of what people would say if she admitted it.

So the situation is this, I have a job that I cannot keep up if my wife moves out as I cannot pay the bills and pay for childcare and I will not let her take our daughter with her as she is going to end up renting a room and that is it due to her unwillingness to do what needs to be done to support herself and also a complete lack of money sense or the abilty to control her spending.

I can't even afford to pay all the bills on my salary alone so I will probably have to sell my house and move myself and my daughter back in with my mother (who knows how long for).

The main thing I would like advice on if anyone has any is what legally can I do with the equity from the sale of the house as even before DD arrived the money my wife contributed usually only just covered the food and the outstanding debts she had built up before meeting me that I paid off for her, and since DD's arrival what she contributes does not even cover the food bill each month.

As she is the one that after all this time has suddenly sprung these changes on me is there any way I can hold onto more than 50% of the equity as I want to try to save the money and use it towards the deposit for a new place of my own so DD and I have our own house/flat.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

Blimey SimonHoward, where to start indeed.

Is your wife going to get a job? If so, presumably she will have to contribute to the upkeep of your DD just as you would have to if your DD was going with your wife. I don't know about the equity question, I guess if you can prove that you have paid all the mortgage that would help, also is your mortgage a joint one or a common one (may be wrong terminology) I think that makes a difference.

I suggest you talk to a Law Centre or the Citizens' Advice Bureau to start with.

You say that you will not let your wife take your DD, presumably she agrees to this? If not things will be a whole lot more complicated.

SamboM

The mortgage is in both names but on the application for one of the additional comments that was placed there was that my wife would not be paying anything towards it.

She has a part time job that she is going to have to do more hours at just to survive as she doesn't even earn enough currently to rent a room and pay for her food.

As for her not taking our DD with her, that one is still under discusion/arguement. We have sort of agreed that she will look after her in the day and I will have her nights and most of the weekend but as she has yet to keep more than 1% of her promises to me I think any agreement we have may end up being ignored at some point and she will try to get custody. At which point she will have a real fight on her hands.

simonhoward, I can't help with any of your queries off the top of my head - I am ignorant in the legalities of separation. I just wanted to say I am reallh sorry you have all this on your plate (and sorry for your wife, too). My first impression is that moving back to your mother's with your dd is the best way forward, as you say. Once you see how much or how little your wife is contributing timewise and financially to bringing up your daughter, then you can determine where and how you move next. Until you've worked out a custody arrangement in theory and in reality, you really won't know where you stand.

I do hope you get lots of useful financial and legal advice from other mumsnetters.

Thabks ladies

I have been lucky that so far things have not got nasty and we have managed to share the house without too much trouble but both of us know that it is a when not an if that my wife moves out. It is all just in the timing.

Sorry to hear the news Simon.
If you felt that you could rely on your wife's common sense and that she would stick to any agreements made jointly regarding custody and asset division, then I would advise keeping the lawyers away. From what you have said, I think that you cannot rely on her. Therefore I repeat the advice given so many times to so many women on this website - get yourself a recommended lawyer and prepare for war.
As a male (and as the historical breadwinner) you're in for a struggle - financially, legally and emotionally.
You have to get a lawyer to establish the separation to avoid being saddled with her debts if she is unprepared to work to support herself.
I'd suggest that you do not vacate the house without legal advice - if she remains there, you stand a chance of losing your right of residence. If you move to your mother's, then you weaken your claim for a substantial portion of the equity (which you will need for housing yourself and DD).
If the marriage is definitely finished, resolve yourself to that fact and try to act logically and in your best interests. Emotional responses to the situation will not help (and I know that's easy to say).
Like any man in this situation, you are about to be screwed (as second wives have frequently reported on mumsnet). Prepare yourself and get that legal advice before you make any wrong moves.
Throughout the hard times to come remember that at the end of this situation there is a better life to be had with a better partner. I've had two divorces (one emotional, uncontrolled and hurtful, one logical, controlled and hurtful). Life has never been better than it is with my DP.
Good luck.

You poor thing. I'm sorry that I have no advice, but I'm impressed with your bravery at coming on here to get support. I've only been here a few weeks myself, but everyone's great. She must be going through a really hard time too, but I hope she is able to realise that you are trying to do what is best and not being a mean b!

I don't have any advice either but wanted to say how sorry I am that you and your family are going through this.

Go and see a solicitor who specialises in family law as soon as possible and before agreeing to anything. If your wife is a bit flaky that's a absolute necessity. Good luck. The other possibility is mediation- it can cut down the solicitors bills and keep it all friendlier- I have no idea who provides such a service though.

Me too. Very sorry to hear this, you have given me relationship advice in the past and I'm afraid I haven't got any to give you. Best of luck and I hope everything works out the way the want it to.

Simonhoward I am very sorry to hear about your family problems.
My knowledge of the law is scant but I do remember hearing Vanessa LLoyd Platt(high profile divorce lawyer) say on a radio 2 prog. about divorce and separation that there are two huge myths which simply refuse to die surrounding this.
The first (which does not apply to you) is that there is such a thing as a "common law" husband or wife, and that by living together for a certain pariod of time you acquire legal rights as if you were married. You don't.
The second huge myth apparently is that each spouse is automatically entitled to 50% of the assets of the marriage. They're not. You can work it out between yourselves but may need legal advice if you disagree.

Can I just put in the opposite view regards involving lawyers? My ex husband and I divorced without involviing lawwyers AT ALL. It was a sad but not acrimonious parting and we managed to agree on all things financial by sitting down and working out what we had each put into the house and other assets. In the end I got to keep the house by paying him an agreed sum towards our shared equity in the house. We did not have children but I know of others who divorced and who had three kids ; I believe they did have to have some legal input but it was very minimal and they managed to sort it out in a civil way.

Don't assume all divorces involve getting taken to the cleaners by someone you will end up hating. It really needn't be like that.

Has she agreed that your daughter will live with you?

"like any man in this situation you are about to be screwed"
I am sorry if this is the experience of many but definitely does not appy to all.
I was married for eight years. My husband supported me through college and I had a few badly paid part time jobs but my financial contribution to our marriage was negligeable. he was something of an entrepreneur and at the time we split was becoming VERY wealthy and it was quite clear he was onto becoming a millionaire. (as he is now)
I left and did not take a single penny, not even a share in the profit from selling our house. I wanted to end the marriage, he didn't and I thought it would add insult to injury if I not only went back on my promise of being his wife forever but took half his cash too. This was a man I had once loved deeply after all.
There are some decent women ( and men)in the world.Please don't think all exwifes are money grabbing so and sos. It's just they are the ones you hear about.

StuartC

Good advice, and the only way i'm leaving this house is the day I sell it.

JimJams

I don't know if the term flaky is really appropriate. She is more like a teenager without the common sense to look at things objectively than flaky but I know what you mean.

To be honest considering it is all her idea to finally come clean after all these years and finally getting everything she told me she ever wanted then I'm in half a mind to tell her that she is getting nothing but I'm not that mean. Hopefully we can sort something out money wise but if not then the only winners are the lawyers.

Jasper

I'd love to settle things without lawyers.

As for agreeing about DD staying with me, she has but only after I told her that if she decided to fight about it then I'd fight and win and she knows I'd do it as all through our marriage what she has contributed to the house has mainly been food and debts and a history of no control over her spending. Whereas I have always been the major bread winner and basically pay for everything but the food each month.

simonhoward, has your wife actually told you what she wants financially? do you suspect she will want a 50/50 split of the equity in your home or do you know this as fact? do you think your wife has already recieved legal or financial advice herself?

I know you've said on other threads that you work hard, long hours most days. Is there any chance your wife will say she couldn't work because of her childcare commitments? Obviously lots of parents with babies both work, so that's not a watertight reason by any means, especially if you just have the one child, so childcare costs are not duplicated. But in your wife's case, given her skills, the job market in your area and the cost of childcare, how much could she have worked realistically to contribute to your family budget?

These aren't questions that need answering here. I'm just saying how clear are you on what your wife expects now, and what you expected from her, before this all blew up?

simonhoward, has your wife actually told you what she wants financially? do you suspect she will want a 50/50 split of the equity in your home or do you know this as fact? do you think your wife has already recieved legal or financial advice herself?

I know you've said on other threads that you work hard, long hours most days. Is there any chance your wife will say she couldn't work because of her childcare commitments? Obviously lots of parents with babies both work, so that's not a watertight reason by any means, especially if you just have the one child, so childcare costs are not duplicated. But in your wife's case, given her skills, the job market in your area and the cost of childcare, how much could she have worked realistically to contribute to your family budget?

These aren't questions that need answering here. I'm just saying how clear are you on what your wife expects now, and what you could reasonably have expected from her, before this all blew up?

Simonhoward, if this goes to court (which obviously it will do in some way as it is a divorce) you either have to sort this out between yourselves with each side having proper legal advice (otherwise your agreements won't be binding) or the judge can decide if you can't agree. A judge can do absolutely ANYTHING. He can put the house in your sole name or your wife's sole name. He can distribute residence and contact as he or she thinks fit (after hearing welfare reports). There is no 50/50 split. That only applies to wives claiming a share in their very rich husband's assets where there is more than anyone needs for their basic needs. usually if there isn't much in the way of assets, the person looking after the child gets more in the way of support and equity. But the thing to remember is that in divorce there are no rules. If you want shared residence or residence in your favour I strongly advise that you sort this out as amicably as possible with your wife as the courts will rarely offer this. Go to court and it is very likely you will get every other weekend and half the holidays if your wife fights you. It is very much in your interest (&, I think, that of your daughter) to make nice about this and to offer your wife absolutely free contact with her daughter, to say she can see her and call her whenever she likes and to have her for at least every other weekend and half the holidays and a couple of nights aweek. It will help you and your wife if you agree to live near each other. Do not leave the house. My dh refused to leave the house when his former partner met another man and in the end she left to be with him leaving her dd behind. In the end, my dh, being a very lovely man, agreed to let his dd go to his wife because she said she could spend weekends with him. She subsequently went back on this agreement and behaved just appallingly, but that's another story. You are in a stronger position if you refuse to move out. If she goes, it does weaken her position but it doesn't mean she wouldn't win residence if she fought you for it. One good bargaining tool is that you could say you won't ask for maintenance for your dd if she stays with you. But please don't use your dd as a weapon (I'm sure you won't) and try to make sure she sees as much as possible of both of you. My stepdaughter has definitely suffered because of her mother's hostility to her father and to me.
The other thing to remember is that behaviour in the marriage has no bearing on the financial settlement whatsoever. It is decided on the basis of need and fairness. You do need a good lawyer who is sympathetic, plus you do need (IMO) to settle this as amicably as possible with your wife.
I can understand your sense of betrayal, but your wife's sexuality was presumably also painful and shameful to her and there was a time when she hoped she could ignore it, but couldn't. You, very sadly, are a casualty of that, but if it wasn't for her you wouldn't have your dd who you obviously love very much.

I agree with Tigermoth. If it came to a custody fight your working long hours and her being a SAHM will very much go against you in court. YOu are not in a particularly strong position so you do have to unbend and try to do this as amicably as possible. Fighting won't help here IMO. Courts aren't very interested in who is the breadwinner, when it comes to contact/residence, but more who is the child's primary carer (rightly, many will say). In my dh's case, they both worked full time but my dh worked shorter hours and did more childcare. I don't think this is the case with you. You need good legal advice to get your position clear and you also need to talk to your wife as Tigermoth says. I am sure you are very angry, but if you want to see a lot of your dd in future, anger really won't help. I've seen my dh suffer so much from seeing so little of his dd so I understand your feelings, but what do you honestly think will make your dd happy? That's the most important issue at stake here. How do you think your dd will react if she doesn't live with her mother at least for a substantial amount of time? I am a big fan of shared residence and parents living near each other if at all possible, just from the experience of being a stepmum. I don't relish the idea of being neighbours with my dh's ex, but for the sake of my stepdaughter I could manage it. However she's married to a millionaire so our finances won't quite stretch to living next door!

talk to your lawyer, but if she has debts then maybe paying them off could be part of the settlement if you want her to cooperate with you regarding your dd. If she has your dd to live with her and no income you will be substantially disadvantaged financially. Even if you share residence 50/50 she will get all the child benefit and be able to get maintenance for your dd from you.

I also agree with Stuart C, your marriage has been hard for you for a long time (for reasons you now understand which have nothing whatsoever to do with you as a person). If you can sort this out reasonably amicably, you will have a great dd and the chance of a happier future. My dh is very glad his ex left him as he now has me, and I am lovely

And I've just spotted that you have a girlfriend already!!! When did that happen, you sly dog? Is your wife in a new relationship yet?

Firstwife

Oh for more women like you.

Tigermoth

She hasn't said straight out that she wants half the cash from the sale of the house but we had discussed the possibility of my g/f buying her out of the house when/if she decides it is time to move in with me. My great fear is handing over what could be upto £30,000 to her and seeing her blow it all because she has no control where money is concerned, instead of using it on our daughter to provide a better future for her.

Aloha

I had heard that judges could decide what happens to any assets.

As for access to DD for both of us the current plan is for my wife to have her in the daytime during the week and I will have her in the evenings and weekends so that I can still work in the day and my wife can supposedly do evening work. She has always been against doing that much work though, even to the point of refusing to get an evening job last year when i got laid off and I told her it may be needed. At the time she would rather have seen us sell the house than go out to work each night. Currently she is not to happy about the fact that she may have to work most evenings as it will cut into her available time for socialising.

I do not plan on leaving the house till it has to be sold, as it is my wife is now in the spare room and if anyone goes it will be her.

I'm not so much angry with her as upset that the person I gave my heart too could not tell me what her real feelings were.

As for her taking things to court, we both want to avoid that and I hope I have helped that along by not acting irrationally since everything happened.

My wife no longer has any debts as I have paid off every debt she has run up, ones before we met and ones after, and I don't think she has ever paid me back even 50% of what she owed.

As for the g/f, well I met her about 4.5 months ago by accident and things have progressed from there. Bit of a long distance relationship though as she lives in Holland, but we stay in touch by phone and internet (and we have the phone bills to prove it) and try to get over to see each other every 4-6 weeks (EasyJet is a god send).

My wife has not met anyone else so far that wants a relationship but then again she does come over as being desperate (a number of friends have said this to me after seeing her trying to chat people up) and I think it is putting people off.

Sobernow

Thanks for the name of the website I will check it out soon.