Help needed in a seperation

[SimonHoward]

Where to start?

The begining I suppose. And with the facts.

After almost 6.5 years together, and 5 of them being married, my wife and I are in the early/middle stages of seperating. She decided earlier this year to finally tell me why the physical side of our relationship had always been terrible after the first few months, and that was because she was a lesbian and didn't like men but had been too scared of what people would say if she admitted it.

So the situation is this, I have a job that I cannot keep up if my wife moves out as I cannot pay the bills and pay for childcare and I will not let her take our daughter with her as she is going to end up renting a room and that is it due to her unwillingness to do what needs to be done to support herself and also a complete lack of money sense or the abilty to control her spending.

I can't even afford to pay all the bills on my salary alone so I will probably have to sell my house and move myself and my daughter back in with my mother (who knows how long for).

The main thing I would like advice on if anyone has any is what legally can I do with the equity from the sale of the house as even before DD arrived the money my wife contributed usually only just covered the food and the outstanding debts she had built up before meeting me that I paid off for her, and since DD's arrival what she contributes does not even cover the food bill each month.

As she is the one that after all this time has suddenly sprung these changes on me is there any way I can hold onto more than 50% of the equity as I want to try to save the money and use it towards the deposit for a new place of my own so DD and I have our own house/flat.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

I know a lot of women do work in the evening, but I have to say, if I was taking care of my (very easy) little boy all day and working all evening I would feel I was working twice as hard as someone who worked all day and had all evening to relax. Also, it seems to me that this might be a lot of coming and going for a small child. She might well want her mum to put her to bed some nights if that's what she's used to. Could a split week work for you with, say, your mum/a childminder looking after your dd during the day on 'your' days which would free up your wife to work part time without being 'on duty' for 16hours a day or more? Just a thought. I can honestly understand your feelings - it must feel awful for you, but it is the best thing that could happen. As you say, things have been shaky for ages and you've already found someone else. I guess she's been very unhappy and it is extremely hard for women to admit to being gay in an intolerant society. I expect she thought it could work at first. I agree it certainly seems as if you have been incredibly generous financially. Maybe you could agree that she could have half the equity minus the amount you have paid off in debts for her? It's not totally unreasonable to ask your g/f to buy her out when/if she moves in with you IMO. Sadly, there will nothing you can do to stop her spending her money on anything she likes once you have agreed a settlement and worrying about it will only drive you mad. Sounds glib? we paid a hell of a lot of money to dh's ex (who now lives in a £2m house) and she still pinches her dd's pocket money (given to her by dh) to pay the cleaner!
Good luck.

Oh, simonhoward, I am sorry that you are going through this. Please don't think firstwife is a rare being. I have been stitched up badly by males in the past. As she says, it is the bad ones you hear about.

I agree with everyone who says get legal advice. Keep records of anything unreasonable your wife does in case she turns nasty and you need to use it. Courts are quite keen on facts, with times and dates.

I must admit I don't understand people like your wife who say they want a child to live with them but will not get off their a**e and make an effort to ensure they can provide.

Also agree that if at all possible you should try to agree what you can outside of court. It sounds to me that your wife might secretly quite like you to be the main carer since then she can continue her social life and low working hours and still enjoy a few hours a week with your dd.

All a court will be interested in is what is in the best interests of the child.

I hope you find solutions that everyone can live with - best of luck.

Simon, am so sorry its all gone horribly wrong. I hope you manage to get it all sorted out amicably, I am afraid I cannot give you any advice but if you want to rant then I will gladly listen. Good luck with your new girlfriend.

F xx

As for agreeing about DD staying with me, she has but only after I told her that if she decided to fight about it then I'd fight and win and she knows I'd do it as all through our marriage what she has contributed to the house has mainly been food and debts and a history of no control over her spending. Whereas I have always been the major bread winner and basically pay for everything but the food each month.

Simon - you really need to think about what is best for your daughter and that is absolutelty nothing to do with any finances - you will be made to pay child support for your daughter if your wigfe gains residence.

I am trying not to get angry here as I am in the middle of fighting my husband for what is now called residence. You may be angry with your wife but att he end of the day I am very sure that she has had a hard time admitting her feelings towards women and I am sure that she is very sad that she has hurt you so badly.

Someone said that it was unfair of to to expect her to look after your daughter all day and then go out to work - I agree - working is a damn sight easier than looking after a child each day and I think expecting her to happily go out to work after running around after said child all day is a little harsh. Also if she now looks after the child all day and you work extremely long hours then I am afraid it sounds like you do not have much of a case. Do you actually wany residence or do you just want your wife not to be a financial burden to you??

I may be wrong but reading your post you seem far more concerned about holding on to the financial side of thigs than your daughter.

Finances will not even be looked at until the residence issue is sorted out and if your wife gets residence the court could make you move out or it could make you give her a bigger share of the equity to m ake sure she has somewhere to live.

At the end of the day money means absolutley nothing - I would burn all mine (have none at mo legal bills are crippling!!) if I could just wake up with my daughter each day.

If you want to mail me, please do, is handy sometimes to have someone who is experiencing thigs from the other side.

Aloha

I understand what you are saying. I did offer to do the evening work and look after my DD during the day as this would let my wife work day shifts but she turned that down flat.

To be honest she doesn't like working and even when we did not have children was not overly happy about having to do a full working week.

Currently she is more interested in finding opportunities to go out on the pull than she is to do work. And she also seems to think me doing 60-84 hours a week to pay for the house and all the bills is fine and that there is nothing wrong with her not working more.

As for the debts, I wouldn't even know where to begin. She must owe me at least £4-5,000 but I basically wrote it off at the time as part of the cost of the partnership called married life.

In the case of my DD's routine currently she is used to daddy getting home and then playing with her for a while before she goes to bed and during that time mummy slips off to work on the nights she now works. She only does 3.5 hours max a night, and then only 3 nights a week, so with the time she spends up looking after my daughter it's about 14 hours a day max all told so currently I only do an hour or so less a day of work and childcare on average. It's just a shame that most of it is work not seeing my daughter grow up.

Janstar

When my wife and I first discussed the seperation he main idea was totally give up work and get the council to give her a place to live, preferably a 2 bedroom flat, and then claim benefits.

Needless to say I spent many hours talking things over with her and finally got it into her head that it doesn't work that way.

We even went through recently how much it would cost to survive on her own and then worked out how many hours a week she'd need to work and her first answer was that she wasn't going to work that much as she'd never have time to date or socialise.

Needless to say I got a bit mad at that point and pointed out that she was in her mid 30's not 17 and that she should grow up and act responsibly otherwise how was I ever going to be able to trust her to look after our daughter on her own.

Boe

If I had to give it all up to my wife and walk away with only the clothes on my daughters and mines back because that was the best way then I'd do it.

If me handing everything over and seeing my daughter once a month was the best thing for her I'd do it.

As it is I have no problem with my wife being the main carer or having residence but as I know how much trouble she got herself into before I met her I currently do not think that she could cope with her new life (which does seem to take priority a lot of the time) and the finances of being a single parent.

I have already told her that if she becomes the main carer once we are seperated then I'd happily pay child support but I have this horrible nagging feeling that within months I'd start hearing how deep in debt she was because she cannot control her spending and I know that the next thing to happen will be her either asking for more money or starting to not pay bills. Just like she was before I met her.

The system I worked out where she stay with me at nights and most of the weekend and with her mum in the days is not that much different from how it is now so my DD's routine would be disrupted as little as possible.

Still there is always the home of a lottery win and being able to buy the house 2 doors down from me so it all become academic.

But Simon your daughters feelings and emotions are what is important here not in the least whether your wife can finacially support her - the state will do that if needs be - you cannot expect her to look after a child all day and then go out to work in the evenings - and as for her new life well I am not gay but had no social life for at least 2 years 9 months and I can say that I went out a whole 10 times in the 6 months after myself and my husband split up and that was just to feel normal again - I am sure that your wife has always gone out but you must realise that she wants and needs to explore the sexuality that has now become apparent to her - I presume she is letting you get on with your life with your girlfriend. Give her a break on that score - sure things would settle down after a while.

If your wife cannot cope with being a mum at home supported by the state and you without working I am sure that she would return your daughter to you - which would be disruptive but you would get what you want at the end of the day. You are gonna have to support her somewhere along the line.

As for you working 14 hours a day this will go against you big time - and i think your wife wanting to socialise is not a bad thing - she has your daughter 14 hours a day and then goes out for 3.5 hours to work (leaving her 6.5 hours to get some sleep and have some time on her own!!) - I would tell you to poke it if I looked after a child at home all day and then you told me I had to work!! When will you guys see, her staying at home is a job and a very worthwhile one at that.

As for the money - a marraige is a partnership and I feel at not time must you say that you have payed for more - do you realise if you had to pay a woman to do all the things a SAHM does with one child and the housework etc you would be payingher £17.5k a year.

When you are married it does not matter who has paid in what - she can rightly claim 50% of everything you have including and investments or pensions!

Boe

All the worries about who gets what have just become more than an academic discusion.

Work has just informed me that the contract I'm on is over in 9 days time (this I knew) but what they and I didn't know was that unlike we had previously thought I will now not be transfering to the new firm so effectively I'm out of work as of the 1st of September.

They are trying to find me more work but the only place they have available currently means on average I'd do 18 hours a week less work (which is good) but also loose upto £9500 a year (which is bad).

So I'm currently off job hunting on the internet and will be putting the house in order as unless a miracle happens I am now going to have to sell it.

Looks like a long weekend of discussions will have to happen this weekend rather than later.

Boe, I don't think sh is basing everything on finances. He has just been worn down by living with someone whose spending has been out of control. It happened to someone I know, as fast as he paid his girlfriend's debts off for her another creditor would come out of the woodwork. He has answered his door to find himself face to face with a big ugly bloke carrying a baseball bat, chasing a debt my friend did not even know about. And each time his girlfriend promised him that she had told him everything, there were no debts she had not disclosed to him.

It is hard living under the same roof as someone like that - you never know when the bailiffs will be calling. And you feel betrayed because of all the lies.

It sounds to me like sh will feel better when his wife leaves because then he will not have all this uncertainty hanging over him. After that maybe he will be able to clear his head enough to be more analytical about the best set up regarding day to day caring for his dd.

Surely first priority is to establish a safe roof over dd's head - the best carer in the world isn't going to do too well in the street.

Boe, I know from your posts that you have fought your way back from being forced into the street. So have I. It doesn't sound like sh would ever throw his wife out - he is trying to find a good solution for all of them I think. Wouldn't it be great if sh's wife shows enough maturity to set up something for the future with sh's support and cooperation? sh, I hope this may be possible and that the two of you reach a point where you can split the care amicably between you.

i have been following both this and boes thread and must say how sorry i feel for both of you.
simon i personally feel that you do have your dd best interests at heart and that as you know your wife best you are tthe best to judge this situation.the shared care you propose for your dd sounds great as you say it wouldnt change that much in her life apart obviously from the fact her parents are no longer together.is there no way that you could perhaps stay living in the same house (seperate rooms/lives)of course.although that may just confuse your dd.

boe -your story has at times left me in tears but i have to say i recently lost my job and as i live with my partner am not entitled to any money whatsoever for me or my dd and child to be,we are left to struggle on my partners wages...also by law if we ever split up although being together for 8 years i would not be entitled to a penny of his money/house etc..all i could claim for is support for my child/children.

personally i feel that simon is trying to do his best to get through this with as less pain for all concerned (some men do do this ) and his wifes financial independence is important.surely if he said that his daughter should live with her mum and then the mum blows all the money on whatever and leaves them with nothing/no home etc then that would cause suffering for the child?

in situations like this i think amicable is the way to go with the chil/ren involved having as less stress as possible

Ladies and Gent

Thanks for the advice so far. Especially you Boe.

I will re-read what you have all said and then sit down with my wife tonight and hash out what needs to be done.

Karenann and Janstar thanks for your comments, hopefully I can get this sorted this weekend.

Oh no! I'm really sorry to read about the latest development, on top of everything else. Very,very best wishes on job hunting.

If you haven't already done this, you really should see a lawyer. Even if it is the most amicable split in the world (and my divorce was farily amicable), I found friction arises at the areas which are unclear, or uncertain.

Sorry about the job Simon, hope something better with less hours and more pay comes along soon. I do hope everything works out for you and your wife.

Good luck with the weekend talking.

Simon - I also thught about somethign whilst out at lunch - if you get Residence of your daughter your wife could refuse to look after her in the day but actually go out and get herself a job and you as resident parent would then have to pay for childcare.

Boe

Thanks for that.

I have to admit I hadn't thought of it but considering how little my wife seems to want to work I doubt she'd do it. If she does though I'll just have to see what I can do.

I have to say that I agree with you, Boe. Looking after a child all day is hard work. I work part time, but the days when I'm at work are like a holiday compared to the rest. I'd certainly tell someone where to shove it if they expected me to work at night after 14 hours of lone childcare.

My DH once memorably said 'Droile brought nothing into this house'. He meant money. I think the statement spoke volumes about his character, and I'll leave it at that, apart from to say that in a marriage, financially you are both one organism, until the decree absolute.

Simonhoward, I feel for you, but as some of the things you say remind me of DH at his worst, I'm struggling with it.

simonhoward, you have not said how your wife runs up these debts. Is it that she simply can't manage the housekeeping/food budget. I get the impression that your joint finances are totally stretched (I know that feeling too well) and that the financial juggling is too much, so do you think if she had more money, she would have been OK?

Or is it more deliberate in that she spends lots of money on herself and disregards everyone else? If the latter is true, the way she spends this money is part of the picture. If she spends lots on drink or drugs, for instance, this could of course impact on her ablity to care for your daughter. And if this is the case, it must strengthen your case for residency. Her spending habits are not her real problem - though real enough to you.

I was reading up on domestic violence recently - guidelines for council employees.
Various types of abuse were listed, amongst them something called financial abuse. I did not know this term existed. When one partner's money habits affect a relationship, (withholding money, refusing to support the family or spending all the family money) it is classed as a form of abuse. I don't know how widely this is formally recognised, but it's an interesting fact.

Hope your talking goes well and that you come to some agreement. Good luck with the job hunging.

I strongly believe that financial problems break up marriages as often as infidelity etc. And disparities in income are hard to handle. I was grateful that when I met my dh we were earning the same amount. I since gave up work to have a baby and we recognise our marriage is a partnership financially as in every other way. But I feel good because I know I contribute enough work-wise to feel equal to dh. I save us loads of money by knowing how to fix things etc and I put as much money towards our house as he did. Now, incomeless, I feel totally justified in spending on anything I want. This is not a problem since I am not an extravagant spender anyway.

dh spends 60 hours a week out earning money for us. He is out from 7 -7 and therefore I control the household and organise the housework etc. But at weekends we share. It feels equal and if ever that slips, the one who feels put upon will say so.

In the past I had boyfriends who earned less than I did and it did cause problems because I would want to do things like go to restaurants or clubs and end up paying for them so that they could come too. That isn't so bad in itself but often I would get the feeling that they had no idea how hard I had worked for that money. It used to get on my nerves cos I was managing as a single mum of two and they usually had no kids themselves, just b**y lazy most of the time. It makes you feel like a meal ticket and it's not nice.

Simon,
It sounds like you have alot to cope with at the moment, but as you say perhaps you and your partner, need to sit down and have a good talk about the way forward.
As you seem to be out of a job soon anyway, perhaps you could consider P/T work for both you and your partner, with joint custody of your DD, both working opposite ends of the week, and shareing childcare responsibilities.

Anyway, you have been given some good advise from others, and I hope you manage to sort things out without too much hassle, being a sort of second wife (DH wasn't married to his ex), it can get very stressful.

Simonhoward sorry to hear about the latest downturn in events.
Can I reiterate what I said earlier about trying to sort out as much as possible amicably without the need for protracted legal battles ( where noone wins)
I have friends whose situation was very much like firstwife. He had a high powered job that took him all over the world and earned him millions. She did part time work in her own profession as and when she felt like it - financially there was noneed to and her earnings were a drop in the ocean compared to his.
She eventually left him as she decided she simply did not love him (after fifteen years).

She literally walked out with a suitcase of clothes and promised him she would never make any financial demands on him.
Lots of his friends warned him not to trust her in this and he tried very hard to get her to sign something legal to this effect but she absolutely refused, saying to him he knew she was trustworthy ( if somewhat flaky!) and she had no intention of a lawyer receiving money to validate this.
It has all turned out fine and they have remained friends.

Now I know this just one example, lots of people here could tell you stories of their divorce from hell, but I tell it simply to make the point - don't expect the worst - it may not be nearly as bad as you think.

Good luck.

Well we sat down and talked and sorted a few things out.

Bascially my wife will be getting 50% of any money left over from the sale of the house and we have worked out a shared custody system for our DD.

At the moment neither of us is wanting to start divorce proceedings so at least that is not an issue and the only thing that both of us might want in t the house has been sorted out amicably.

Tigermoth

So far in the 6+ years we have been together I have never seen her be able to balance her account or usually even bother to try to remember how much she has spent.

I have to keep an eye on her bank account otherwise it would be in the red each month regardless of how much went in there.

It is not that she spends oodles of cash on any one thing she just doesn't seem bothered by the fact there is a limited supply of it.

Simon,
Even if/when you and your wife want to get divorced, this can also be done amicably without the use of lawyers. You just apply for the relevant forms from the court and pay a set administration charge.
I have friends who divorced this way, and saved themselves a fortune !!!

Thanks Jac34, I'll have to look into that.

SimonHoward i have just caught up with this thread and I sincerely hope everything goes well for you and your family. I hope everything will stay amicable.

Tigermoth financial abuse is very common.
Janstar my ex n**head was like that. I would have allsorts of debt collectors at the door demanding money that I never knew he borrowed.It really was a horrible life.

Only just caught up with this thread too and just wanted to add my best wishes to you SimonHoward. As one of the few regular dads on Mumsnet, I've appreciated your contributions.
Glad to hear you've been able to have some civilised conversations with your wife. I hope for you will both be able to keep amicable.
Thinking of you.