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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to Stately Homes!" - Dysfunctional parents?

1002 replies

ItsGraceAgain · 01/11/2010 21:19

It's October 2010, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
midnightblues · 12/11/2010 14:00

Droves, with your letter for all toxix parents, I suspect you have just rendered all on this thread to lots of tears!! But in a good way, it did make me straighten up a little, and stick my chest out!! Be proud of who we are, we are indeed survivors. We did it! (too many exclamation marks, but I don't care)

Feeling a bit stronger in mind today, but my body gave up this morning. A friend had to take my dd to school. Feeling physically a bit stronger now, and I am currently eating something .

I agree that, even though our childhood experiences will all have been different, our thoughts and feelings are all remarkably similar. It is dawning on me that I could be having therapy for aaaaaages. If nothing else, my parents have made my adult years expensive. Should bill them really.

SoLonely · 12/11/2010 14:02

Droves, I LOVE your letter. Sums it all up nicely.

droves · 12/11/2010 14:30

Midnight , im so glad your feeling stronger today ! And youve managed to eat something too , things are definatly improving for you then. Babysteps , still move forward.

Re billing , morally we should be able to sue them.
I dont think there is a legal way to sue a parent for neglect/abuse/destruction of childhood. Pity , as i have a lovely friend , who is also a lawyer , he`d do it for kicks ! Grin

Im glad you like the letter , (midnight,solonely,briar)

It came from anger , i was being a "defiant teenager",for a minute or so.
Something just flowed ,like a dam had been broken and it kept comming .
Once i`d stopped and read it , it seemed apt.

Smile (((hugs)))

ItsGraceAgain · 12/11/2010 14:34

Just a quick reply to mummiehunnie before I catch up on all your posts ... YES, YES, that was my biggest breakthrough!! Another part of the same thing: asking "What do you mean?" Soooo simple - and so not allowed in my upbringing, I didn't even know it was okay to ask until reached 45!!

I'm surprised your therapist still calls it "faulty" thinking; they mostly say "unehlpful" or "not useful" these days - doesn't matter though, whatever works :) Well done!

OP posts:
SoLonely · 12/11/2010 14:35

Neme, I also LOVE what your DH said to your health professionals. I am sure deep down inside I am waiting and hoping that DH will one day speak up for me like that. But I don't think he ever will somehow Sad. Although it appears to be a good thing that he has stuck by me throughout nightmarec rollercoaster that has been the past few years, I have never had the feeling he has any real understanding of what I have been through and the injustice that you and I and everyone on this thread has suffered, whilst our abusers walk free and unencumbered, happily continuing their daily lives, having dumped all their toxic rubbish onto our shoulders until it weighs us down so much we can barely function.

Those few sentences from your DH shows me that he seems to have an understanding of your situation. It must make you feel so good, so supported, so not-alone (I know that's not a real word!) in your struggle. Whereas my DH, whilst he does many things to support and help me (eg does the morning school run so i can sleep in as he knows i sleep very badly) I never feel he has ever 'got' what I am going through. I even feel he is merely tolerating me and enduring me whilst I sort out my problems alone, so that once I have sorted out my issues, he can have what he wants from me, and that is the only reason he is sticking around. I don't feel any emotional connection with him at all, hence the MN name, I do feel so lonely, even though I have a husband.

Nemo, am sorry but I don't know all the details of your backstory. Does your DH come from an abusive background himself? My DH comes from a comparatively functional family (although he admits his mother has issues) and says that's why he can never really understand me. If I'm honest, right now I am only with him for the sake of the children, I sometimes feel that is the only connection we have. Sad

droves · 12/11/2010 14:48

If our DH `s understand what we have been through , then they themselves must have had negitivity in their lives somewhere before we met.

If they think they understand. then they are kind and have empathy toward others.

If they dont understand , but truly sympathise and do all they can to help us recover , and protect us (like nemos DH has).
Then we all are LUCKY , the dh because he never knew what it really felt like, and we ,because at long last we have someone to fight with us.

This fight might come in a million different ways, a verbalisation against the toxic, or a hug and a help to dry the tears.
My dh favours acting like a clown , so i laugh when im down.Even a small act like making a cup of tea for us ...is in its own way part of the "war on toxic"...its the little things that they do that show us they love us. i think.

D

SoLonely · 12/11/2010 14:50

I agree with those talking about billing our parents because they are literally costing us hundreds of £££ in paying for therapists etc to help us sort out the mess they left us in. Droves, there is a way to sue parents for abuse, there is an organisation called the Association of Child Abuse Lawyers and they specialise in claims for compensation against parents by abused children. Although money can never make up for what we lost and our struggles in adulthood, it is a symbolic gesture that publicly affirms that our parents did wrong and we are owed something as a result.

My dad offered me some money a while ago. I refused it at first but eventually decided to accept, as it could be put to good use for the DC's. My dad and no doubt the rest of the family think he is being magnanimous and unselfishly generous, particularly in light of my ungrateful and unreasonable act in going nc when they had been such wonderful parents, but in my mind, I see the money as compensation for all the suffering my parents caused, which is ongoing to this day. I didn't tell my dad this when I finally agreed to accept his money and he hasn't actually paid me any money as yet so I have yet to see whether he will actually follow through with his offer, especially once he realises that he will get nothing from me in return ie no contact or access to the grandchildren.

SoLonely · 12/11/2010 15:12

Rose, thank you for giving your reaons why you are allowing your grandmother to visit. It really helps me when I am trying to fathom out my real reasons for continuing to be nc with my family. I can understand the feeling of being viewed by others as the 'baddie' by going nc and wanting to disprove that. I very much hope the visit goes well and admire your bravery in allowing it. It's good to hear that you will now be a lot more disagreeable in Grace's words, it's the best way to go with these toxic people.

I think I have become a lot more disagreeable too. Or to put it another way, I am far less of a doormat these days. I really kick myself now when I think back over conversations with family where they were just so rude and insulting and derogatory towards me and I said nothing. My family would get a shock now if we did meet and they acted in their normal manner towards me. I think it would be they who would want to go nc after our meeting, as I would be giving as good as I got, if not more, and they would be deprived of their usual kicks from putting me down.

BookcaseFullofBooks · 12/11/2010 15:20

droves, you are awesome! Your letter is great.
I hope everyone is having an okay day. Feel guilty for not having anything to say to you all. I get overwhelmed bu all the words on the page.

Have been out and about for the afternoon, trying to engage with life. Pretending that I'm normal and everything is fine. I manage to fool everyone, even the professionals.
Sitting in Starbucks now, with my bombproof shield around me. Alone in a cafe full of people.

ItsGraceAgain · 12/11/2010 15:36

I know that feeling, Bookcase! Can't afford coffe-shop coffee any more and I miss it, so don't knock it Wink

How about using a few minutes of your time in your bomb shelter, to write something that really matters? Either here or on the back of a till receipt or something ...

OP posts:
droves · 12/11/2010 16:06

Bookcase .... a few quiet moments in starbucks is my idea of bliss....as long as there is latte `s and chocolate muffins .Grin

Dont feel guilty for having nothing to say.
Infact dont feel guilty ,full stop. I think we all have carried too much guilt around with us for things that were not our fault.Its time to give ourselves a break.

Get the bomb-proofing nice and tightly wrapped around you .
I wish you were my RL friend, id be there with you , buying you coffees and feeding you cakes ! ((hug)).
Smile

BookcaseFullofBooks · 12/11/2010 16:29

I don't think I've got anything to say that really matters Grace.
That sounds good droves. I could do with some rl friends who I can be me with.

droves · 12/11/2010 16:50

IKWYM bookcase ,most people recoil in horror if you mention childhood abuse.Like an earlier post said..it is the last taboo.People will avoid you because they just dont know what to say. Sad. So mostly i just dont talk about my ex-family.

Ive recently lost a "friend" , who i had known for 10 years.
I had gradually opened up to her about my past, my childhood and all.

Her attitude was not what id expected. Rather, she told me to "get over it" ,and to stop going on about it because it was my attitude that was wrong .I was astonished to hear that my ex-m was "only doing her best".

Bearing in mind , it took years for me to become "safe" with this friend , it was pretty horrible.

DH pointed out that shes not very nice person anyway . She did cause a fair few arguments with dh , and had a tendency to want things before she got in contact.

Now i am a step back from it all i can see there is a little bit of the toxic about her (as ex-h).
I wonder if it is something about me that brings this type of person into my life .Do i have an inability to see true
personality ?.
Dh says im like a trusting child at times , eager to please ....to make people like me.

Anyone else like this ?. Any idea why?
P

Briar · 12/11/2010 17:03

Delurks...one day I will post about myself - honest! I've been a lurker for the past 4 stately threads! Blush

...anyhoo droves.

I don't think we attract toxic people as such...I just think 'we' (the abused) give the toxic people more space in our lives than others do.

As they say better the devil you know than the devil you don't...we are used to a certain type of 'devil' and in that type there is a sort of (and very odd) comforting familiarity.

...relurks.

BookcaseFullofBooks · 12/11/2010 17:03

I'm like that too droves. It's like a need to see the good in people. I've been rejected quite alot by 'friends' who either have their own issues and don't want to listen or have a fairly rosy outlook and don't want it interrupted by real life. As a teenager my 'friends' told me they liked me when I was drunk because that was when I was most fun.

I would like friends who know what is going on for me and will support me when I need it but can also just chat about everyday stuff. I'm trying to form some new friendships at the moment but am very scared of opening up to them.

I wonder if, even after 10 years, you really knew each other at all droves. That must have been devastating for you.

midnightblues · 12/11/2010 17:42

droves, yes I am also a people pleaser, I will twist in any direction to be what they want me to be. My lovely friend is also this, and I am sure that her mother is toxic too (but she has not realised this yet). Thankfully she has just started counselling, so I am hoping she starts to understand how controlling her mother is.

I would say that it may be a common theme amongst us that we are caring and empathetic towards others? Would it be true to say that we perhaps become mini psychologists to our friends, helping them with their problems? But ignoring our own of course. Putting everyone above us. This is what my therapist slowly helped me to learn about myself. That I ignore my needs entirely to ensure everyone around me is happy. I am starting to remember to nurture myself in little ways, without feeling guilty.

On the theme of husbands, I did say the other day that I had a talk with my dh to help him understand why I am exhausted, tearful, distant etc. I was not able to explain any of the neglect and childhood issues, he actually said he didn't want to know as he probably would not understand and get cross about it. I could see that. Instead we talked about nurturing our relationship within the boundaries of me being up and down with mood. That was a good start. But we need to talk more. Tricky.

BookcaseFullofBooks · 12/11/2010 17:45

I think sometimes it's easier to help other people with their problems than focus on our own.

ItsGraceAgain · 12/11/2010 18:46

I agree, Bookcase.

You said something very important when you popped your head round the door just now, imo, Briar. I feel it's definitely not a matter of "attracting" abusers but of tolerating them: I don't think we attract toxic people as such...I just think 'we' (the abused) give the toxic people more space in our lives than others do.

My self-serving mother constantly asked us to understand Dad. He was tired, insecure, unwell, worried, stressed, had a bad childhood ... all of this was true. But what she never said was "He's a sadistic psychopath and no-one should tolerate this abuse, especially you!" She taught me, very effectively, to understand sadistic psychopaths like him and anxious narcissists like herself. This, in itself, isn't a bad thing: too much for a child to learn, but my understanding of dangerous nutcases has saved my life a couple of times in adulthood.

But she also taught me to be accepting. There is still no difference, in her mind, between a reason for bad behaviour and an excuse. Thus, in asking me to understand why my father enjoyed beating the shit out of me, she also asked me to excuse him. And I had no choice. It took me a very long time to grow out of this confusion between reason and excuse. Throughout that time a colourful array of abusers found, in me, a naturally sympathetic listener ... who was ready to excuse their abuse. Of course they found me attractive. And of course I felt a special 'connection' with them.

After I'd started therapy, I began to see that my exceptional abilities for empathy, compassion and psychological insight applied only to certain sectors of society - the damaged. I actually had no insight at all into healthy minds, happy people or straightforward relationships. Putting this right has been the thrust of all my inner work since then (ten years and counting!!)

My knowledge is useful, though I'd rather not have acquired it. Everyone has a dark side. I have piercing insight into this - the dark side - along with unshockability and empathy. I'm very well equipped to harness the 'dark forces' in people for creative growth, and I know that is a rare & precious quality - one shared by us all here, I'd dare to guess. But I am only just beginning to walk on the bright side: it still takes conscious effort for me to remember the other side of the street is sunny! I was brought up to believe everyone, and everything, is damaged and dangerous. That's simply untrue. The lie still has a hold over me, though, and I make the choice to 'cross the street' with a sense of mistrust ... it's getting easier :)

A few weeks ago, I passed a little test. A man started talking about his violent childhood. He was waiting for some sympathy. Instead, I said "My dad did the same. That's why I'm in therapy." He lost interest. The 'old' me would have offered the sympathy, shared his pain ... and set myself up, all unknowing, for an extremely one-sided relationship.
Now he barely nods towards me Grin He's a good-looking man, somewhat pompous & fascinated by himself. I'm sure he'll have found his emotional punchbag by now; I'm thankful it's not me!

Bit more of a ramle than I intended (again)! I wonder if it would be useful for us to share the little ways in which we're all becoming healthier, relationships-wise? I know mh has successfully batted a would-be controller out of her life. We deserve to clebrate our steps forward, don't we?

OP posts:
Briar · 12/11/2010 20:06

Ok,ok you all know I'm reading so I might as well post.....Grin

Hi Grace and everyone. Smile

I only realised how messed up my tolerance levels for toxic people were, when I revealed to someone I have known for roughly 40 years, how exactly my family dynamics work.

This person was angry/hurt and basically gobsmacked at my family's out and out nastiness...to me what was happening was just one more thing in a huuuuuuge long list of 'odd' behaviours...I'd lost the ability to react/be shocked at what they were doing/saying anymore!

This was my personal eureka moment as to why I seemed to attract toxic friends along with inheriting a toxic family. I had very high tolerance levels for toxic games.

Oh and by the way....I have a complete set of matching toxic relatives. Confused Confused Confused Confused

BookcaseFullofBooks · 12/11/2010 20:15

I guess I've been working on starting new relationships instead of avoiding social contact at all costs. I have been initiating contact by asking people if they want to meet for coffee. It's all very 'normal'.

It is a positive step for me, but on the other hand I feel like a fraud because I'm masquerading as someone I'm not. I'm not the together new mum. I'm the gibbering wreck who would prefer to crawl under a rock than go through the motions of being sociable. I get nothing from it. I am truly dead inside. My childhood killed me.

Briar · 12/11/2010 20:19

Don't feel like a fraud Bookcase...I might have been one of those
Mums at school you asked for coffee and at one stage I was as 'lost ' as you are right now.

Maybe one of those Mums one day will turn out to understand the real you, through the same eyes as you have viewed your childhood. x

PeppermintPasty · 12/11/2010 20:20

see, i'm still quite confused about stuff...i think i had a relatively "functioning" family when i was growing up, but i don't understand, if that is the case, why my mother has always been so unavailable emotionally(to me only, it seems), and latterly ie last few years, downright abusive(verbally).

i read your posts, everyone, and i think of the bravery(utter pure bravery)of meeting what happened to you face on, like so many of you seem to be doing. i feel like a total coward after today-i had the chance to broach things with her and i ducked it...but...i also thought i should duck a confrontation-so as not to give her the satisfaction etc. dykwim?

today was the first time i've spoken to her in about 11-12 days, which has been fab and not at all hard.

i recently took my 3yo and 6 mo for a visit (she's 250 miles away-hurrah!!!) and i mentioned on here last wk that it was the week from hell. i simply couldn't bring myself to speak to her on the phone after the way she had been that week, but i was dreading her ringing as i knew she'd go all imperious on me and say, completely unnecessarily, "this is your mother", in quavering tones just like mrs bucket.

this is to tell me by the tone of her voice that she is disgusted that i have ignored her for this length of time(never mind that she hasn't rung me!!) and that she speaks to my siblings "every day".

i thought i'd adopt the "breezy" approach with her but hit it hard if she started on me-my new strategy, which i haven't tried out yet, is to go very quiet and just say to her that i can't deal with the way she talks to me any more/i've got too much on/too tired/too over it etc etc as she is always expecting to have a slanging match(as in the past). but i think the breezy thing took the wind out of her sails and she just asked me about the children and that was it.

the reason i will probably need to bring up the visit with her is because of christmas-i really don't want to go but it's expected etc(esp as my dad died a yr ago-tho we have had one xmas without him). we are all expected to go and pay court to her and for my part-get violently verbally abused. i don't think this is going to happen as i'm not going!! balls to it! would you go? oh no of course you wouldn't.

look, i'm really sorry to ramble about utter crap, but i wanted to get something down-i've written and then deleted so many posts on here. there's so much i want to ask all of you about stuff that went on-ie is it nrmal etc but i'll have to stop now, sorry for rambling.

nemofish · 12/11/2010 20:29

Briar I'm glad you posted. Loving the toxic relatives picture, art therapy, stately homes style!

My story, all of it together, sounds like a mix of something from the Jeremy Kyle show and Brookside. But without the scouse accents. I wouldn't think you were making it up Smile

Good to meet a fellow scapegoat.

And interestingly, I have one letter and a few very odd e-mails, I will take them to my therapist when I start next month.

My dh, funnily enough, comes from a very loving, together family. His mum was a smashing lady, and his dad was lovely - although we found out near the end of his life that he had had an affair when dh was young and fathered 1 (perhaps 2) other children. (see what I mean about the Jeremy Kyle thing). But dh is very loyal, loving and family orientated, also thanks to his mum, he is a bit of a feminist but thinks it sounds ridiculous for a man to say that. But I know he gets me, he almost always has done, and he gets my baggage. He didn't always. He did once say the words, about something small - 'but that was years ago, shouldn't you be over it by now?' Angry Hmm He wasn't referring to any abuse btw.

He says now he looks back and thinks what an idiot he was for thinking any of it would be easy to get over. He has said 'how could you possibly get over any of it without years of therapy?' Too true mate!

Yes I wish I could invoice the feckers too...

BookcaseFullofBooks · 12/11/2010 20:31

Thank you Briar.
You're not a coward peppermint. It takes time to confront the past. I'm glad you've been able to put things into words and press post instead of deleting x

Briar · 12/11/2010 20:43

Hi Nemo

If I invoiced my lot..they'd want 90 days to pay and a fecking discount! Grin

My dh comes from a similar background as yours Nemo...that's how I learn what 'normal' was...he really doesn't 'get' my lot even after over 20 years...but he listens to me really well...and manages to pull all the Shock faces in the right place...bless him.

Peppermint...ramble away...if I can answer any questions you want to ask I will gladly do so...but be aware I can only answer from my own experiences...I wouldn't be comfortable offering an opinion on this stuff, unless I knew for myself how/what I felt or did. The patterns all seem to be the same but the bits that effect each of us most seem to be so very different.

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