Pages, do you want to set up the next thread or shall I? I've re read your post about it and I think I would be okay setting one up but don't want to if you have reconsidered?
I'm seeing a therapist and I find it difficult to open up. I feel like I want to keep that hurt part of me private. Like its my secret place and no one elses...if that makes sense. I hope this thread will help you if no one else can, I suppose here you can go at the pace you feel comfortable with and there is no weekly working your way up to your appointment and what the heck to say.
hello again, i have stayed up late to read this very long thread!! and i must say i still have not read it all, but what i have read has made me be extremely emotional tonight, and more importantly not alone. yes i have been to councellors, (who in my opinion and experience are more harmful than they are worth) therapists, psychologists,but i have never felt quite comfortable with allowing others into a horrible place inside of me, so going to see these people and really saying very little, kind of defeats the object if you know what i mean? I have spoke on occasion to some people, but its so hard, because i really do not want pity, i want some help in understanding who i am, and why i act in this way, and especially why i do and hopefully wont but probably will, always blame myself for every thing. im rambling, im sorry, i am also crying, but i know that sometimes thats a good thing. anyway have a good weekend all, and i am glad to have found you. xx ps, to dividedself, i think we are in good company here, and have found something good. try to stay positive and i will try also.
We don't do mothers day. My dh has never got his mother a card. I was always emotionally blackmailed by family to join in with all 'hallmark' card days, something I am glad to have left behind.
Your mother treating your brother as the favourate isn't new I presume?
Attila- I've sent my mother a card but not because I want to or mean any of the things it said on the card but because I know that if I don't send one she will yet again play on it to get the sympathy vote from people and believe me she's very convincing.
Yes I know it's a complete cop out but I don't want people to think I'm a heartless bitch (when in fact thats her) and that is exactly what she'll have people believing.
Was wondering what your feelings are about Mothers Day?.
I am personally not sending my Mother a card or a gift for this day, she can forget it as far as I am concerned. Perhaps it is a bit easier for me as she has said she does not like Mothers Day anyway (feels its both a rip off and sentimental old tosh). Even if she did like Mothers Day I would still not send her a card, I would feel uncomfortable about doing so.
I've also felt too often that I have come second to her cleaning my brother's empty house whilst he is at work and that is also why I am not going to send a card. I am really disappointed in her.
I wish you all on this thread a very Happy Mothers Day. You people are truly deserving of the term.
I often read this thread - and find it extremely useful - but don't often contribute. I'm sure I'm not alone in finding Mother's Day leading to negative thoughts about my mother and consequent sadness and anger. That's what I was going to post about till I read Smithfield's news.
Instead I'd like to offer many congratulations! Rather than dwelling on my bloody mother, this has reminded me to enjoy the great benefits of being a mother myself. In fact, I think I'll take my baby DS out and help him buy me some Mother's Day chocolate (it's what he would want, if only he were beyond the 'feed me, feed me' stage of development...). Happy Mother's day everyone.
Smithfield, I am sooooo happy for you. Life can be good, nay- even great! ...and I am glad for you that you have this fantastic positive experience as quite the ultimate proof, imho.
<<<<happy tears and hugs for you>>>>>
Please take care and take your time for recovery.
TMSB
--- I am still waiting... will be induced early 4 Mar if necessary.
Smithfield - well done and congratulations!!! All teary eyed now!! Welcome to baby Smithette So pleased you achieved the birth experience you wanted this time! Any support you want over the next weeks just pop on say, doesn't have to be a long post we'll be right here! Sending pink cyber hugs your way
Congratulations Smithfield DO tell all So glad you appear to have put some ghosts to rest, as they say. Your mother can't touch you now! Nothing can take this lovely birth experience away from you.
hello again all, and thankyou for your warm welcome, i have not read the whole thread yet, pretty hard finding the time with a one yr old, very active son,and a five yr old daughter, who does not yet seem able to entertain herself!! hence very little "me " time, plus i have a teenage daughter also, but thats another story!! i did read the post by oneplusone on the last page, and shed a few tears, i so did not think anyone else felt like that!! it was a huge comfort to me. anyway i will try to speak again soon, maybe i will come on tonight. I hope you are all ok xx congratulations to the lady who has just had her baby! lovely news.
Smithfield, my warmest congratulations! You have triumphed over adversity and all due to your immense hard work and persistence and insight. Your DC's are 2 very lucky children to have such a strong, loving mummy.
Smithfield - I am overjoyed and that by the sounds of it you have found peace with what happended to you with your first birth. As I read your post a lovely warm tingly feeling spread all over my body
You will be happy (and Im guessing a bit proud) to hear I had my baby 4.20 on tuesday morning. A little girl
Doesnt the universe move in mysterious ways. It's as though some external force knew I had to get to the place Im at now to recieve my dd. So thankful for the work I did do before her arrival.
I dont have time at the moment to tell you the full story but, I could not have asked for a better birth experience...it was truly amazing, everything I could have hoped for.
And once again...thanks for all your help in keeping me sane and supported in order to keep the wolf from the door....it really has paid off a million times more than I ever could have thought.
Danae, its so scary isn't it. One book I read talked about the 20% rule, ie: give yourself permission to get it wrong 20% of the time and when you are really stressed because life is giving you a hard time that can increase to 40%.
By the sounds of it you have no spare time to yourself what with work and childcare, and lets be honest looking after small people on its own can be mind numbingly boring.
I also think that there is a tendency to over compensate, my eldest has social issues at school (6) and I am so scared that he will end lonely with no friends (just like me) that I over analyse all situations and am always asking him questions about his friendships. Funningly enough I am very relaxed about learning and he appears to have a very positive attitude to reading and learning. My long post is that maybe you need to relax about the whole bedtime process. When I was having huge difficulties getting my boys to bed (they ganged up against me - about 4 and 2 i recall) I won some books on mumsnet. The day they arrived we had a mammoth reading session (about an hour) and they both fell into bed happy and exhausted. It totally broke the cycle of misbehaviour, I continued to read to them a lot for about a week and the habit had been broken.
Your daughters needs will change as she grows older, what might work/be required when she is 1 might be different when she is 2. What are you trying to achieve? My eldest (6) will go to bed happily with a book and read for half an hour before lights out. My youngest (4) still finds bedtime stressful, so we listen to his requests for various lights being on and off, if he gets up we put him back to bed without any fuss, if he needs to say something we listen.
Lots of advice there (please ignore) but hopefully compassion as well. You are a mum who is trying to be a better mum and you have clearly identified the anger and rage that lives inside you. It has a feeling, I had a bad day yesterday and i lay in bed with it still inside me - it was a knot in my stomach, a tightness at the top of my windpipe, a slight feeling of nausea - its all the anger and frustration that I swallowed as a young girl.
Try writing about when you get it right, because i bet you are doing it 80% or even 60% of the time.
Hi Matildax Nice to see you on here. Sorry to hear you are in a bit of a state, if you want you can elaborate on that here if it helps? Post about your childhood when you are ready. And of course you can get advice or chat. Any post helps all of us validate each other and our experiences.
Danae, can you try to positivly parent the angry you? Basically agree with yourself when you get angry? "Yes I have a right to be angry because of my childhood experience and because it is bloody hard work when a little one will not go to sleep, it isn't fair, you have every right to feel angry, but right now is not an appropriate time to show that anger. I will deal with it later"
Or you could look at behavioural change. Spoken about this recently on here, mainly because I got a book from the library on irritation and anger. Look at the triggers, how you are feeling, what really flipped you out? How soon did you notice you were ranting at dd? Was it during the rant, a second after, mid rant? Really give yourself a pat on the back whenever you notice your behaviour. That is the key. Don't constantly beat yourself up about it or you will feel/be worse. My therapist tells me to feel an appropriate amount of guilt. (Not sure what that is!). It isn't okay that you are shouting at your dd, but you are recognising the fact that you are and that deserves praise and encouragement. Perhaps more nurturing needs to come from somewhere?
Behavioral change is difficult, they describe it as beating a new path through your brain, you want to go down the easy well worn route, but over time you can make the new route the acceptable one.
I know this is not dealing with your childhood anxiety, but behavioural change can go hand in hand with therapy about your childhood.
So well done for recognising that your anger is linked to your childhood. Well done for recognising the fact you were unreasonably angry with your dd. Well done for being here and telling us about it to try to stop the behaviour. And I have no need to say anything negative about you shouting at dd as I'm sure you are busy doing that yourself right now
YEs, Danae- I have had the same night-time experiences as you. I wrote in an earlier post about how I used to lift up the edge of the carpet next to my bed and pee on the floorboards because I was so so scared of going downstairs to the toilet on my own. There was no chance of calling a parent to alay my fears. I'm sure I was a victim of Cry it out and there was no way I could have called one of my parents if I was scared. They had five kids and I think because they were so inadequate as parents and people, they needed us to be quiet in bed- otherwise they could never have coped. Rationalising it now didn't make the experience any less frightening though. I'm still affected by it today and I become terrified at night.
My guess is that cutting off your parents may have a positive affect on your night anxieties, or at least working on it like you are will have a good outcome. Since moving into my flat more recently my fear of going to bed has lessened. But I still have trouble forcing myself to prepare for bed and for sleep so I stay awake until all hours- I think because of my underlying anxiety about bed-time; its just not a pleasant experience for me, but its getting better. Regarding DD- it does get me down when she won't sleep. (I think the way you are trying to raise your DD is brilliant, by the way, with either you or your DH helping her to drop off ) At least you know what you're aiming for. Most Some people have no insight just go along their merry way and repeat their parent's disastrous parenting without question.
Hi Matildax - I found this thread last year when I was in a confused place. I have found so much compassion and validation here, even when I wondered whether I had any right to be here. This is really mumsnet at its best.
So many people, some with horrendous stories, some with more subtle forms of abuse. But we all have the right to be here
If we can help, we will. Just writing it down is a good start.
hello all,i came across this thread by chance.i dont feel strong enough at the moment to tell my own story, and am not in a very good way at the moment, but i was wondering would it be ok to "chat" on here once in a while?, and maybe get some advice, on a subject i very rarely talk about.....
Oneplusone...my mil I'm sure thinks I'm strange for cutting my family out of my life. She just does not vocalise it to me. And I also suspect she thinks I'm very strange for not socialising with her and sil all the time (sil virtually lives with her!) but they are a tad bit too mental for me...so we have a stand off... luckily my dh has already had a realisation at about 12 and emotionally divorced them years ago so plenty of support and encouragment from him. Does your dh understand where you are coming from?
Thanks Sakura...I needed that saying to me about answering everyones posts just like I told Pages she didn't need too...pot calling kettle black! I think I do need to cut back...spend far too much time typing then deleting and typing and deleting and cutting and pasting <rolls eyes>
Hope you don't have much longer at your dad's, it can't be good for you being there. But I think you will benefit, as you have noticed how he treats your dd as a watered down version of how you were treated. That is valuble knowledge to work on when you get back. Must say I'm still that your mother hit you as a baby
Yes, us (on this thread) being mentally ill seems to be another theme. My mother sent a xmas card to my dh this xmas, it was a MIND one...was wondering if there was a message for him there...when I kicked up as a teenager it was me being a teenager (from 16 on?!?!) so I was obviously hormonly imbalanced to be angry with them I suppose it lets them carry on as if they are 'normal'. Always felt like I was the sane one in a madhouse...
Mampam, your halfway there then that second lightbulb moment was very important to me, and it was only on boxing day last year...
I also think talking about our feelings towards our dc is important, those feelings don't relate to our dc, but to our own childhood feelings. I know I feel anger, irritation, spitefulness towards her at times. Which is just the way my mother treated me. I just can't seem to stop feeling it. But I think I cover up the majority of the time, I hope! Seeing therapist tonight so will talk of it all again.
My dad told me i needed to see a psychiatrist when we had a last and final almighty falling out. And now I've spoken out about my MIL, i feel like DH's family think i'm mad. I'm sure MIL is mentally disturbed but none of them can see it. Oh well, I've set some boundaries with her and it's zero tolerance of her spiteful comments. It will be interesting to see how long she can keep her mouth shut
My lightbulb moment was when i realised my mum didn't and doesn't love me and that the vast majority of the pain and suffering i felt as a child was actually caused by her and not my dad as i had thought all along. I am still shocked at how different the real picture of my family is compared to the illusion i had beleived for so long.
Also how my sisters see me is completely coloured by the influence of my parents; they don't see or know the real me at all and that is something i am still trying to come to terms with.
I realise also that i always seem to be trying to protect other people's feelings over and above my own, resulting in depression and ill health on my part. I don't speak out when people have hurt me and make excuses to myself as to why i shouldn't say anything, always thinking about the other person and not me. This is something i want to learn to change, i need to look after myself and more importantly look after my 'inner child' who has had absolutely nobody looking out for her and standing by her for all these years.
There was something i wanted to mention which may help some of you. It is in relation to feelings of rage and anger at our DC's. I have felt the same way as some of you have described in relation to my DD. At times i have felt, i am deeply ashamed to say, pure rage and hatred and anger towards her. Things improved after i came to the realisation about my mum and i thought that i was directing rage against my DD that i actually felt against my mum.
But recently things seem to have got worse again and my relationship with DD seemed distant again. I then read something in one of Alice Miller's books which said that your DC's can arouse deeply buried feelings of rage that you felt as a child towards your new born siblings and i think that is the true source of my current feelings in relation to DD. Although i can remember nothing from around the time when my middle sister was born, i was nearly 5 at the time, i know i must have felt some rage and anger towards her for taking my parents' attention away from me. I do remember my mum being so concerned and close to my middle sister, as she still is today, and in a way that was completely alien to me. I know now my mum didn't bond with me or love me and there was no closeness between us ever, and so as a child i know i must have been deeply hurt to see the closeness between my mum and middle sister and to know that my mum did not feel that way about me.
As Alice Miller says, it is not enough to have 'intellectual' knowledge about your childhood, you must also have the 'emotional' knowledge and feelings. From past experience i know that once i have had an intellectual realisation, the associated emotions are usually not far behind, usually triggered by a random event.
I'm sorry for rambling, am sure nobody has read this far, but it just helps me so much to get my thoughts out and to know everyone here is in the same boat, albeit at different stages. I hope somebody will be helped by what i've said, i always find reading other people's posts illuminating and comforting.
Sakura- My mother has tried branding me as mentally ill when we've had fall outs and she's tried to protect herself from people finding out the truth. She once tried convincing my exMIL that I was "gone in the head" and when exMIL pointed out that I seemed perfectly normal to her, my mother proceeded to try and convince her that I was putting on an act.
Ally- My lightbulb moment has been to realise and admit to myself and others that I did have a crap childhood. I do know that it's unlikely my mother will ever change but I still feel like I'm coming to terms with that fact and that I'm never going to have the relationship with my mother that I've always wanted.
HI all, I'm still away but I thought I'd def pop in on this thread- I'm at my dad's at the moment, so thats probably why I'm drawn to coming on here... Yes PAges, the thread is too huge and too full of people now for you to have the responsibility of answering everyone, but I don't think anyone expects that of you at all, and its just nice for each individual to write down their own spiel and to have people to read it who know where they're coming from. I certainly don't expect people to read most of the stuff I write Ally- you too tend to take on the responsibility for answering to people. But it all shows how caring and considerate you are of others.
And I totally agree with what ally said, really- this thread has become the new "voice" that we can listen to whenever the ugly old parental voice pops up in our heads.
By the way PAges, I was glad to read that it didn't really turn out as bad as you'd imagined at the meeting, and in fact went quite well. GOod on you- this is another milestone.
I was just watching the news about JErsey and those child's remains. Last night on the news a 59 year old man finally spoke out about the abuse he'd suffered in the orphanage. I smacked to me of our situations- experiencing abuse and atthesametime being silenced by the very people who were supposed to protect us. THE Jersey authorities needed the children to be silenced at any cost (death?) so that the good image of Jersey would be perpetuated and no-one would lose their job or be disgraced in their tight-knit, cliquey community. What a horrible situation, I thought and I could totally totally empathise with the man who felt powerless as a child. If he'd have spoken out , who would have believed him- it was him against a whole band of middle class men in whose interest it was to keep him quiet.
When I watch that, I wonder how low my own mother would have stooped to "keep me quiet" if I'd ever had the guts to do anything then. I feel for sure she'd have branded me mentally ill (she works in the proffession) and would have convinved people in power that I was. SHe couldn't risk having her image and her career damaged by a mere spat of a child. She would have done anything to shut me up- I feel certain of that. [Another realisation arrives-that my mother really may not have loved me ]
lisalisa- just so sad to read about your mothers behaviour. I've read that book ~(interesting you say you don't know how it appeared in your posession). Her behaviour must have been awful and so difficult to pin down. ANd of course having all the medical authorities believing your mother. SO sick. GOd, words can't express how awful her behaviour was.
I have to mention DAnae's post:
"pure rage against her neediness when MY neediness (actually archaic neediness, a neediness from infancy to be recognised, attended to, nurtured and comforted) already means that my resources are depleted, it's like I'm drowning and don't have enough oxygen for me, let alone her. To yell at her and see her crumple would somehow take the pressure of me, someone to share the 'burden'" What a fantastic post- all of it, not just that little piece. WHen I read that I thought- that's exactly it. That perfectly describes how it is and how I feel. THank you for that DAnae for putting the elusive emotions down in black and white. As you and ally say, we can just pause to let the moment (of anger or whatever pass) and then pat ourselves on the back afterwards for not reacting in the same way our mothers would. I pat myself on the back several times a day thesedays. My father is on his best behaviour at the moment, and I'm only staying with him about 5 days before I move on, but even so sometimes his attitude towards my daughter is pretty shocking. And I just feel glad she can't understand some of the things he says because I think it could do some damage even in these 5 days. Just subtle things that constantly undermine her and expect her to behave as an adult would- then he ridicules her when she doesn't behave like an adult would (she's 1) THis makes me because I know this is a very watered down version of how he treated me AND without the violence of course AND its only for a short time AND my father was the better of the two parents. IT beggars belief! I always just assumed as a tiny tiny child I was treated okay, but my mother's letter detailing why she had to smack me as a baby, and now my father's attitude towards DD makes me very sad and scared for the little girl I once was again. I've had one panick attack since arriving at my father's but I stayed in my room with DD and it went away eventually. I have to stay because I want to show DD to my brothers and grandparents. I just don't have the financial means to get a B+B, so I have to stay here while I do the visits
Thanks for anyone who managed to get through this post!!! It was good to get it all out
Phew! Could you see the backtracking I was doing in case I offended . I think you could get away with a more laid back approach. Ie welcome new people/be diplomatic when there is any dispute (which really does not happen here, we're just too eager to please...). I could do it this next time if you wanted, but I don't feel I have your diplomatic powers and way of being so succinct. I'm a waffler...and can be a tad bit bossy .
Those two points are exactly the one's I would pick, so could be a common theme for everyone?
Yes Pages - now I think she is just a bit sad and pathetic. And yes I do love her because she is my mum but my life and my childrens lives must go on. Baby steps, my boys steps, my familys steps...
I'm not wise I am just a quick learner and I have read assidoulsy.
No, Ally, I was being genuine, it's a therapy-type phrase for someone like me who always needs approval from someone else... "permission not to be my usual overly diligent self, please?" "granted" "thank you Ally" .
I think the two light-bulb moments I have experienced are 1) the realisation (that we all had in one way or another hence being on thsi thread) that our childhood was in fact crap and our mother let us down badly and 2) the realisation that she will NEVER EVER change and that I no longer care if she does anyway...
I think its the support that keeps us all going. We all need each other to validate ourselves. Seems like we become a stronger voice than our parents voice the thread becomes a stronger peer group voice, we chose to listen to it.
Baby steps are good, even if you slip up a bit just keep plugging away. And you will end up wise too [ally dressed in long linen robes with long wispy white beard].
So do you feel as if you are accepting that your mother won't change now? I found that was a big lightbulb moment for me.
kaz33 and ally90 how did you manage to get so wise!! I have to say that this thread has been a life saver for me. I never would've had the strength to distance myself away from my mother and stick to it if I didn't have the knowledge and wisdom of people posting on this thread. So thanks to everyone for keeping me sane and reading my ramblings.
I now realise that my process of healing is to take one small step at a time. The first step has been for me to distance myself and stay distanced. Normally I cave in because I keep going back for more in the hope that things will be different this time, that my mother will approve of me and that she may just be proud of me for once. Now I don't want her approval. Why would I want approval from someone as f**ked up as her.
Pages...I think what I said came out wrong...sorry! I did not mean you need my permission to do anything...perhaps I was a tad bit parental in that post! So who's volunteering for the next thread?
Dividedself - your welcome
It takes a while to develop your 'stop' button. When I have a behaviour I'm not happy with round my dd eg critising her in front of other people, what usually happens is I recognise I do it...maybe a week/day/hour afterwards. I acknowledge it, think about what may have triggered it ie my feelings at the time, then make a mental note to recognise the feelings...then give myself a pat on the back for recognising I had done it. Then over time, weeks/months/year I notice myself critising her in the middle of a conversation and then stop myself. Its basically relearning behaviour patterns, it takes time and persistance and lots and lots of mental pats on the back, no matter how long it took you to notice your 'behaviour' happening. So you give yourself constant encouragement and praise. Its not impossible to relearn behaviours, just difficult!
As for the world against you. Could this be your mothers voice that you have taken on board? So even when she is not around you can still hear a stream of abuse/critisim/comments from her? As for children twisting the knife, the reason it may sometimes feel like that is that we were not nurtured as children and still need it, so when our children demand patience and nurturing...we have no reserve. I'm a bit woolly on that one so if its of any use to you...
Love the wading in treacle comment so true!
Hi Mampam
I get 'the look' too when I say I'm out of contact. I just come on here later though and see I'm normal and enlightened
Thinking your abuse was not that bad is normal, its the password to get onto this thread . If memories of your childhood cause you pain/discomfort/unhappiness...I think that is the key. And a parents inability to fully acknowledge any pain they caused you and apologise is a key to the continuing abuse of you as an adult child. Very shocking about her deserting you like that as a child...that is definately emotional neglect, even if your father was with you...children should never feel insecure that their mother who they depend on for survival will leave them, no matter how old you are.
Kaz...liking the 'I've changed my mind' I tried that once...fireworks went off! Pretty frightening as a I remember it.
Absolutely kaz33, and I think that is what TP taught me. Part of me still seeks approval from both parents though even though I no longer truly value their opinion.
Mampam and Dividedself - after the lightbulb moment - the next thing is to realise that you cannot change your mum, she won't suddendly put her arms around you and say i am sorry because she is not in control - she is herself f**d up.
Then you realise that the only thing that you can control is your reaction to her. You have to take control. I remember the first time I said "No" to my parents, now I am getting quite good at it. Also working on the "sorry but I have changed my mind" - she is loving that one
"Everyone is guilty, but no one is to blame"
Your mum is toxic no doubt because of things that happended to her. You can break the cycle and not pass it on to your kids. That is why I am doing this, not because I want a better relationship with my mum but because I want my kids to have a better chance than I did.
divided that is exactly it. My mother goes out of her way to make out how awful I was as a child and completely distorts the truth in her favour. By making me out to be an out of control, awful child it's almost as if that is her way of justifying her own behaviour to herself.
I also feel it is too late now. Whist it is what I have craved for years I do not want to do the usual mother/daughter things with her anymore. I don't want her to put her arms around me and tell me she loves me because I don't want to do it back. It has gone beyond that point. But you are right if she could just acknowledge and put her hands up to the things she has done and continues to do then I'm sure things would start to heal more quickly. Maybe I could stop thinking of her as just my mother and start thinking of her as my mum.
Mampam, do you think (because I truly hope so) that us recognising and ackowledging the wrongfulness makes it a teeny bit better than what we experienced?
I mean, my mum blames me whenever we have had discussion about this. I think she knows, but has convinced herself it was me. When I provide my cast iron argument that it was her, not me (I was a child fgs) she backs away and kinda shrugs me off.
It's too late now, but I just feel that if she could acknowledge what went on and the damage it caused then i could heal a bit, y'know? Maybe I could also love her again like my mum instead of just the woman that I call mum these days.
I worry too that my dc are going to be f**ked up in 20 years time. All I feel I can do is try not to do it as badly to them as my mother has to me, but I know it probably doesn't work like that.
I do feel I need a kind of permission to be distancing myself away from my mother. It's the look that people give me when I say that I haven't really had much to do with her for a couple of months, and I know she will be going around painting herself as the real victim and me as the villain to people. She's very clever at doing that, turning on the waterworks to suit her when she wants people to feel sorry for her.
I did have a very good chat with my nan (my mother's mum) at the weekend about my mother and she says she completely understands why I just want to keep away from her and that I'm best off out of it all.
Dividedself-I can completely identify with what you are saying. When I smack my kids it's usually because they have pushed me to my limit and I lose control and just need to vent my anger on something which comes out as a smack. Afterwards I feel so guilty because I lost control and it makes me feel even worse when all they want is a cuddle after. Thankfully I very rarely smack my children anymore, possibly because they are getting a bit older now (4 nearly 5 and 8) and are better behaved and also I think that it has something to do with where I'm at too. I'm not so highly strung as I used to be, I'm certainly alot more laid back.
My friends who have got children all say that they feel really guilty after they smack their children too, so we're not alone.
Susan Forward does look at sexual abuse in quite a big way in the Toxic Parents book but the advice is relevant.
She is good atgiving a sort of permission to deal with your parents in the way you need to. If you want to tell them to naff off forever, that okay. If you want to keep a distant but civil relationship with them, that's okay too.
I always feel guilty about confronting my parents or in ignoring them because I don't respect them any longer. The book made me feel more comfortable about that.
It has possibly been a bit of a can of worms though, so perhaps having therpay in place is a good idea before you start to read too deeply.
My lightbulb moment was over a year ago and I am still wading through treacle and in a state of confusion mixed with great insight.
I found Susan Forward's book Verrrry enlightening and helpful. I bought it o read in order to help exdp with his toxic childhood issues. It was that book that gave me the huge insight into my own childhood.
What worries me most is that my dc are going to ned to read it in 20 years time.
Are these books about "Toxic Parents" really any good? Is it worth me getting a copy?
It's interesting reading about 'the lightbulb moment'. I only had mine a few weeks ago but I'm still finding it hard to come to terms with. I had a shit childhood. Just coming out with that statement makes me feel like a fraud because I've always looked on it as not being as bad as it could have been or as bad as some peoples childhoods. I wasn't sexually or physically abused.
I've started to remember things that have obviously been buried deep down for a long time and feel like I'm on a rollercoaster at the moment. I remember one instance when I was 13yrs old and my mother had been in a strop for days and one day she left and didn't tell any of us where she was going. In the afternoon the phone rang and I answered it. It was my mother and she told me that she was at such a place and if my stepdad didn't get there in the next 20 minutes she would be gone. So my stepdad went to meet her and came back a couple of hours later on his own and I just remember him being so angry. He was really angry with me and my older brother because the reason my mum had left was because we didn't love her enough.
My earliest memory of Christmas is of my Mother pulling paracetamol out of a kithen cupboard saying she was going to kill herself and my stepdad trying to stop her. I was probably about 5 or 6 at the time.
Thanks for letting me rant on. It feels better to get things off my chest.
ally90, thank you for spending the time to post in detail in reply to me.
I think this thread could be very helpful - especially at the point I am at.
it feels quite 'safe' here. I can expose my rubbish parenting here perhaps.
VictorianSQ - I note what you say about shouting and then hugging not being love. I am so acutely aware of this that sometimes I don't even offer the hug.
I just don't get how one can be so aware of one's mistakes but not have the power to STOP. I like the idea of a pact but when I feel liek I feel I have to see it thrugh. i have to shout and express my hurt and disappointment.
This morning ds was a complete and utter arse about his breakfastcereal and added maybe 15 mins on to our getting ready time - making us late by 10 mins in the end. I smacked him in the end and felt absolutely awful even as I did it. There's a part I don't understand. Rationally I know that my children - aLL children - wish to please. So, I know that it cannot be willful on his part but it feels like the whole world let me down and my children are enjoying twisting the knife sometimes when they won't cooperate. Anyone identify with that?
Yes, Ally, but as your sister was a child too, it was your mum's job to stop your sister's abuse not to join in with her.
Thank you for the permission not to answer everyone's posts! No I don't feel I "own" the thread, but my inner child feels it's a bit like standing in the middle of the school playground and saying "Does anyone want to play with me?" and then having loads and loads of lovely people comeing up and saying "Yes, I will" and then me going off and eating my sandwiches in a corner. Can't do it, it would be too ungrateful!
I still find this thread hugely interesting. But it is hard sometimes to keep up and I often feel I should be doing other things - so if it's okay with you all I will let someone else start the next one
Sounds like emotional neglect to me. I suspect there is more to tell? Please do if you feel up to it. You've done well to post for the first time
Dividedself - Why do you need a PD (I mean that in a think about it way )? It is not important as getting therapy for your childhood. If you have a PD chances are your therapist would not tell you anyway, but work with you through your issues and gradually the PD will work its way out. Pages knows more, she had BPD. You obviously have insight into your personality which is a blessing and is the way forward. And as for your behaviour worsening around break ups...well any stressful situation brings my mother out in me, unfortunately...you may have desertation issues that make you extremely emotional etc and when the button is pressed, hey presto...back to being 6 years old or whenever. What is important is that you are being very brave to face up to your childhood. And that is a big step forward for anyone.
So what to do next, get a book or two (Toxic Parents - Susan Forward, any by Alice Miller) and see about a therapist (if you can afford it) for your childhood issues, as that is where your current problems will stem from (most I should think...). Keep POSTING here We are all experienced to some degree with what you are currently going through and sharing experiences helps validate us all. Perhaps you might like to post a bit about your childhood if you feel up to it?
And don't forget, you can ignore all or any of the above
Oneplusone - why did you not mention Alice Miller before? Her website is brilliant I must follow more links! She sounds just like us...maybe we should gate-crash? I can agree about hurtful comments from friends. Good luck with speaking to your sister and dh about their comments as well. You sound like you've just had the blinkers removed!
Lisa - At least you are acknowledging things are not right. That shows you have insight and are not like our mums or your mum! Try not to be too hard on yourself, acknowledge your faults and understand it is because you did not get what you needed as a child. Then acknowledge and apologise to your child. Do you get any time for nurturing yourself? Any chance of therapy? Self help books? Your doing a good job by coming on here and caring enough to do so. It takes a lot of bravery to acknowledge your childhood and problems with being a mum. Just think in baby steps. One tiny step at a time...As for Munchausens, well apparently abuse by siblings does not exist... ask me and Toomanystuffedbears about that! Just because it has been disproved does not mean any of your abuse happened. I suppose when our parents say it the abuse did not happen that powerfully invites us to think we imagined it...when many psychologists (or whatever) say a condition does not exist... The abuse inflicted on you does not need a name, at some point I'm sure the psychologists will get their finger out and do some more tests or whatever and give it a new name or merge it with some other condition...until then, I would carry on reading up storys that are similar to your's, that way you will get some validation for what you went through.
TMSB - So now Smithfield is well on her way, hopefully its a short labour when are you due if you don't mind saying? Have you got your 'gift' yet from ms? Liked your post the other day...I remember nodding along to it...but can't see it now cause I just pressed review... Did you know there is no such thing as sibling abuse? Never thought to mention, I tend to focus on my mum mainly. Must say I was quite shocked, I consider my sisters abuse equal to my mothers...
Lisalisa you're being very hard on yourself. Anyone would find it very hard with 5 children and thats without having to deal with the sort of childhood you had.
You are seeking information, trying to get to grips with what has happened to you in the past for not only yourself but for your children too. Sounds to me like you are a fantastic mother already .
Lisalisa - my journey (which started at the end of last year) involved reading some books to get some info/validation that things were not right. Toxic parents is a good starter, I particularly liked "If you had a controlling parent" or the brilliantly titled "If you and your mother cannot be friends". Goto Amazon - look up Toxic parents and then look at the recommendations until you find something that looks interesting.
The other bit has been trying to be a better parent to my boys - I stopped being so controlling, tried listening - I have had some successes but also some setbacks.
In addition I have started to take control of my relationships with my parents and accept that I cannot change them, all I can do is my reaction to them. Mostly I don't think of them as all powerful and capable of damaging me as I used to - now I see them as a bit pathetic and sad. Of course it still hurts, but i am concentrating on getting my self esteem back bit by bit.
Mine was 'there weren't many kids had as much as you had and went on holiday abroad every year' whilst very rarely being cuddled, kissed and feeling like the black sheep for bed wetting, not to mention being bullied through school and not feeling able to tell my mum about it.
Lisalisa - that sounds a terrible childhood, the lightbulb moment is liberating but also scary. She sounds a bit like my sister in law, her incredibly robust and healthy only daughter has already had two health scares. I want to shake my brother by the testicles and say wake up.
HPD is a new one on me, I certainly had the authoritarian father.
I have been pushing back the boundaries and am now just concentrating on letting my parents (who are perfectly capable and do love their grandson's) have access to their grandkids. Other than that I am not responding to my mother other than in a totally civil way - she is starting to look for an opening. At the moment it is look at us, look at all the fabby things we have, look at our holiday in Vienna, our trip in Calfornia Any way I reckon if I let them have access to their grandkids we might not get written out of the potentially substantial inheritance
I've had some therapy after coming out of an abusive relationship. It was this relationship, I think, that allowed me to start taking a look at my own childhood and my behaviour as an adult.
Subsequent relationships have left me realising that I have some major issues with my personal relationships.
I do mean Histrionic personality disorder. I have done online tests and have considered that I may be NPD (narcissistic PD) but the more I move on from the abuse the more I am questioning where exactly it is I am going wrong.
I had thought Bipolar but although there is a cycle of depression that is ever present, it is at its worse when relationships begin to become close or if they end. This fits with HPD.
Hi, all, hope you're all feeling ok today, especially smithfield, looking forward to hearing how it all went and whether it's a blue or pink one!
I'm going through a stage of reassessment (sp) at the moment. I know it is as a result of recovering my self esteem and sense of self as a result of this long road i am travelling down. One of my best friends said some very hurtful things to me a few weeks ago and although she apologised straightaway, and said it was due to PMT, break up with her boyfriend etc, I am no longer sure whether i want to continue our friendship. In the past if she ever said anything hurtful to me (which admittedly wasn't very often) I would just ignore it, but now i can't. But i don't know what to do, her apology doesn't actually erase the nasty things she said and i still feel very hurt by her. I think i'll just let things lie for a few weeks and then see how i feel.
I am due to go and see my sister next weekend and in the past she has also said some quite hurtful things to me which i intend to try and speak to her about. Also DH has said things to me which i will have to speak to him about. When i think about it, there are only 2 people i know who have never, as far as i can recall, said anything hurtful or toxic to me, ie my other best friend and my youngest sister.
My counsellor said that when people say these sorts of things it's never because of 'you', it's always 'them', they are 'acting out' their own issues on you which i can see quite clearly now with the various people who have said hurtful things to me. I am amazed at how differently and clearly i am seeing things now, i feel i am far less 'emotionally blind' now than i was before.
To those of you who like Alice Miller, i would very highly recommend 'The Truth Will Set You Free - Overcoming Emotional Blindness and Finding Your True Adult Self'. (I think i bought it second hand from amazon, they don't seem to have new copies in stock.) It's far easier to read and understand than her other books and reading it i feel enabled me to make a real breakthrough on my journey.
Smithfield, best of luck!!! Really excited for you...you may be in hospital now puuuusssshhhhh!!!!!!! Or has someone said that already xxx
Lisa, I read the same book, I found it horrifying...and your mother did the same...ye gods... she sounds very traumatic to be around even now. Also want to repeat what Mamazon said why is it difficult as your children grow up?
Pages, just want to repeat that quote
"Why should this woman, after showing her concern for her mother for thirty years, forgive her crime, when that mother had never made the slightest effort to see what she had done to her daughter?"
to let it sink in. Also, are you getting what you need out of this thread still? Personal question, I know...but I think I know you quite well by now I just can imagine to summerise 30 pages is a challenge...I know a thread has to have an 'owner' but could this become a free for all? I think we all rub along fine...and it would give you a chance to relax rather than think 'I've got to go summerise stately homes now...' Well, speaking for me, taking notes is my least favouraite thing...maybe you enjoy it...in which case I'll just go do the washing up
Hi dividedself, welcome! Do you mean Histrionic PD? Not had much to do with that one as yet...have you been officially diagnosed or self diagnosis? I fit into obcessive/schizoid/borderline/narcassitic....but that was after an online test I like a bit of variety. Do you see a therapist? Or are you just starting to realise your childhood issues?
I dip into this thread from time to time. I think the relevance to me is probably evident from some of my postings in 'relationships'.
Just wondering if any of you have experience of HPD in relation to toxic parenting you have experienced.
I'm thinking about HPD in relation to me and my neediness. Authoritarian fathers are a possible feature according to what I have read. Mine was certainly so.
Anyway, just interested to hear if any of you have the same kind of issues and have maybe had an HPD diagnosis??
Lisalisa like most people who post on this thread, we are all scared of turning into our mothers. You are bound to have some of the same attitudes as your mother as you were brought up by her, I think as long as you can recognise those attitudes or behaviours you'll be ok. I strive to be nothing like my mother especially with regards to my dc's. This may sound a little silly but I have asked my dh to look out for signs of my mother in me. If I act in an unreasonable way such as that my mother would he just politely tells me and I quietly reflect on my actions.
Why do you feel that motherhood has become increasingly difficult for you in recent years?
Smithfield - big hugs, hope everything goes brilliantly tommorow and you get a great birth.
I had a traumatic birth with my first (because of medical reasons) and managed to have a hard work but lovely birth with my second. It healed the pain of the first birth. On my birth notes it said "mother held baby and cried" - tears of joy and exhaustion I hope you to get some closure on your horrendous first birth.
OH Smithfield, tomorrow? That's so exciting. Will be thinking of you.
I had a sudden (rare) moment of feeling really sorry for my mother today and what she is missing out on, imagined her feeling lonely and sad. And then I remembered something Alice Miller said in one of her articles on her website (thanks Oneplus for the link). She was talking specifically about forgiveness and she said "Why should this woman, after showing her concern for her mother for thirty years, forgive her crime, when that mother had never made the slightest effort to see what she had done to her daughter?"
And I thought that why should I feel sorry for my mother, when neither she or my brothers and sister have given me one ounce of consideration for all the pain and hurt they put me through - if they had in any way thought of me at all in the aftermath of what happened two years ago, then they would have showed it and apologised. It's like I said before, none of them actually cares about me when I am hurting, they never have. I will always get a rolling of the eyes when I cry, whereas my mother will always get compassion. So I think I will save my compassion for myself.
I hope that you will do the same, Smithfield and that you and your DH have a wonderful birth and welcoming of your new little family member.
Hi there- Thanks for the lovely thoughts and posts.
Ally- that really helps to remind myself of the reason behind all this. Had a bit of contact too recently which never helps I guess. Presents, cards etc for Ds's birthday. Just serves as a reminder.
I am just jumping on quickly to say I am being induced tommorrow (they will only allow ten days here). So I may be MIA for a few days . will come back and let you know soon.
Take Care All, and thanks again for all your unwavering support. At least with your help I have reached my main goal of a mother free birth!
soothe----smothe on not calling-meant my mil hadn't called (either)...
I forgot to mention that MS announced that my birthday present is packed and ready to mail to me. Her friend must have coached her on that one as well. I said "don't bother mailing it, just bring it with you when the baby comes" and let it drop. Whatever. Another demonstration of dismissiveness and a MS power play over TMSB's original thought. What should I do? Refuse it? delicious thought. Open it, be apathetic about it-what ever it is- because it is really a power play and I shouldn't react to it. My feelings have been shut down so long, I can do a perfect stone face with no trouble at all, I assure you. She'll say something and I can then tell her "Well, thanks MS, for your power play at my expense on the occasion of my birthday-I told you I didn't want a gift, just a card." And maybe a little extra dig: "And no, I'm not surprised."
? apparently.
I feel strong temptation to 'go along'. I want to resist that, but at this sensitive time for me it'll be hard. I can, I know I can, reduce my responsiveness to her though. I feel pretty sure that I am far enough along my journey to actually not be able to do full blown 'Happy Hockey Sticks' with her any more because I now understand the ramifications of doing so. I've never been an actress.
Hi Hugs Smithfield, it couldn't possibly be long now. I glad your scare was superficial and not serious.
I am glad for you that you have a really nice husband and that mil is stepping in to help with your ds. Hopefully things will be smooth sailing for her being distracted by ds, and thus soothe for you as well.
My mil hasn't called once during my pregnancy either. I don't think she found out until past the half way point due to dh's family's dysfunctions - his parents don't get along well. Open hostility has been managed into a system of avoidance or limited exposure. So my fil has known since very early on-he is dh's best friend but honored my wish to keep it under his hat until after the amnio test was done. None of dh's sisters have called either, but then again I wasn't expecting them to. The 512 miles between our homes are 512 blessings .
I used to have a chronic dream of being homeless. I guess that is my version of being abandoned from being ignored/dismissed as a child. Interesting, I have not had that dream in quite a while. I think maybe the pain is a smoke screen to keep us in our place...just have courage and step right through it- it will probably spontaneously dissipate.
Middle Sister has officially moved to the "Victim" spot on the triangle. We were both on the "Persecutor" spot, when I jumped off altogether...Oops-she didn't see that coming. MS called Oldest Sister (OS has emotionally detached from her) and said I had not talked to her very much about my pregnancy. And MS mentioned her coming only on weekends to help me as opposed to OS's stay of 10 days or however long I need her. MS dismisses the fact that OS is a NURSE! Oh, poor MS, I can not, (will not) give her the attentionsheneeds during my pregnancy or after I give birth. Hormones kicking in seem to stir this stew a bit more recently.
DH is home and we are arranging to have our basement finished. We decided to not do a rush job and wait for the birth (also to see if everything went ok and not run into $$$ needs from the baby). Got to go now and help with the drawings, etc. like my brain is in good shape to do this sort of thing right now, rotfl.
Good luck Smithfield, thanks Ally and Pages and everyone. Sakura- hope your trip was a success and not too horrible with a little one on such a long trip (TMSB wondering when you'll be back?).
I was thinking of you yesterday Smithfield, had noticed you had not posted and wondering if your waters had broken, hoping to see a post today saying you had had the birth you wanted this time round
There is pain in parting from family, but in the long term it is what you gain from that pain of the parting of ways. You get yourself back, and your family (dh, ds, dbaby) get you back too if that makes sense. I felt sadness after my dd was born that there was no one to ring or rather I wanted to ring. I texted all my mates instead but would have been nice to post on this thread instead if it had been round! So perhaps you can tell us instead of your family? Not the same...but still, I'm really looking forward to hearing your (and TMSB!) experience (what you want to share of it ) and how the baby is doing and how well you did to go through labour
Really glad everything was okay today at hospital...hugs for the scare xx
Glad to hear you are still hanging on in there Smithfield. It's horrible I know when you think of the sort of support you should be getting at such a special time. Thinking of you and sending virtual hugs x
well, I am still here (tapping fingers, whistling).
Had a bit of a scare y'day. I had an antenatal appointment and the midwife thought the heartbeat was too low, so they sent me straight to the hospital for monitoring. I was there for 4 hours.
Everything is fine though- so no need to worry thank goodness!
I felt really sad yesterday though There I was on my way to hopsital and I suddenly thought, Ive got no-one in my family to contact, should anything happen. It just felt very .
But I just tried to focus after that on those that were there for me and always have been....Dh turned around and came straight home from work so he could be with me and MIL (despite my flakiness over her)Looked after ds at home. She had tidied up for me and given ds his tea, bless her, by the time we got back.
So I guess I just need to keep reminding myself that although you can be related to people and they are blood,they can have such little regard for you that you really have to question them having any place in your life.
Case in point my sister who has never rang once during this entire pregnancy.
I think I am facing up to my biggest fear here because I always felt like they would abandon me if I stepped out of line. I was so fearful of that.
That is now happening through choice and I am working through it.
Still feel the pain keenly at times, but at least Im moving away from thinking that pain in itself is a negative thing. Or the only way to kill or ease that pain is to call them and paper over the cracks. What I would normally do. I'snt that addictive behaviour? It's too painful being without the true source of pain and so you keep going back.
Im trying to tell myself instead that, its ok to feel pain, anger, resentment. Provided I acknowledge it (not bury it), deal with it and then I can move on.
Danae, I found the bit you wrote about your feelings towards your DD when you are depleted emotinally very illuminating:
"pure rage against her neediness when MY neediness (actually archaic neediness, a neediness from infancy to be recognised, attended to, nurtured and comforted) already means that my resources are depleted, it's like I'm drowning and don't have enough oxygen for me, let alone her. To yell at her and see her crumple would somehow take the pressure of me, someone to share the 'burden'"
My mother, I am certain, feels this way and has always felt this way towards me. She has always wanted me to just grow up and stop being needy so that she can lean on me. But she doesn't do anger (ever) apart from cold stony silences. What you wrote made me realise that because she can't just yell and scream at me she manipulates instead, but certainly she manages to make me "share" her feelings of loneliness, emotional deprivation, etc by getting others in the family on her side against me, so that I carry these feelings of loneliness for her.
Thing is, it has backfired on her this time, because I am not lonely as I was when I was a child, and really did rely on her and the others to be there for me. I couldn't leave the family, ie run away from home because where would I go? But now I have DH and my DC, friends, inlaws (fortunately nice ones apart from slightly neurotic SIL), a job - I am truly independent of her now, whereas she has managed to cut off the biggest source of support that she ever had.
(Of course she doesn't see any of this as her fault so she wouldn't see it that way).
Mikafan, funnily enough I have always been quite a happy person, mainly I think because I have always been able to express myself,talk to people and get inspired by them, as well as self-reflect and discover the things that will make me happy on my own, ie I have written in a diary for years and always loved reading and walking and exploring, since I was a child and managed to come to "conclusions" about myself whilst doing these things. I suppose it is a form of spirituality, oneness with myself. Somehow, despite the legacy of pain from my family I have developed resilience and an ability to enjoy life, but this has also involved many years of reading and counselling in relation to my past.
I too would recommend Alice Miller.
Like many of you, I do find I get low since having children and I think that is because of the tiredness, daily grind "groundhog day" as Sakura described it, and the limits to my freedom (being unable to just take off and do my own thing when I want to, especially with DS1 being disabled). But I know that this is a "reactive" depression rather than anything inbuilt, and I am always telling myself things will be easier in the future. I do look to the future a lot and find things to aim and aspire to.
Mampam, I think you are going to have to detach yourself and find some acceptance of the fact that you are treated differently from your brother (as am I - younger brother is golden child and it was his and my mother's pandering to my SIL, his wife (as an extension of him) that kicked things off with me and my family.
So pleased you achieved the birth experience you wanted this time! Any support you want over the next weeks just pop on say, doesn't have to be a long post 
and emotionally divorced them years ago so plenty of support and encouragment from him. Does your dh understand where you are coming from? 
that your mother hit you as a baby 
.
? apparently.
