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Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!
I have been at a bit of a loss recently as to how to move forward. I felt my previous counsellor had reached the end of how much he could help me but i was wary of trying to find another counsellor especially after Alice Miller emphasises the importance of finding the right counsellor ie one who has 'worked through' all his/her own childhood issues.
I think i may have found someone, although i haven't spoken to her yet, but from her profile she sounds like the right sort of person.
So, i feel a bit more positive today. I feel like i have a lot of pent up feelings and emotions inside but i can't let them out as there is nobody i can talk to who i feel will understand me. I do find writing things down helps enormously but i think i also need to talk to somebody.
Anyway, i hope you are all doing ok, and i hope somebody finds this thread soon!
You obviously have reached a blockage in yourself. I think it is two steps forward, one step back. Maybe you need a break, could you spend the money that you were spending on counselling on something personal - maybe yoga, ta chi, meditation etc... Then return to the counselling renewed and ready for the fight ahead.
I am doing the Hoffman process in less than three weeks and you have a whole raft of very intense pre-process work to do. That has opened up some interesting stuff ie: I am not the person that I think I am - I have copied my fathers aloof and critical behaviour in order to get him to love me and rebelled against all of my mums stuff. The effect has been that I have been sabotaging my own life - the only person I have been hurting is myself . Felt very stupid and small last night when I had this revelation.
I have heard about the Hoffman process, your DH did it iirc? I will be very interested to hear all about it (if you don't mind) once you have done it. I'm not surprised you have to do lots of work yourself beforehand. I have found this whole process to be so deep rooted, i am constantly thinking i am nearly there, nearly at the 'end' and then i find another layer of 'stuff' underneath what i thought was going to be the last layer.
It definately is 2 steps forward and 1 step back, but i am finding it easier to deal with as i go along as i understand far better what i am going through now than i did even a few months ago.
I have ordered each and every one of Alice Miller's books as i find her work amazingly insightful. Am off to read a bit more now. Hope the others find their way here soon!
Kaz, i know what you mean about copying one parent's behaviour and rejecting another parent's, and ending up sabotaging yourself. That is what i was doing without realising it. I think the key is find your own 'true' or 'authentic' self and that person is just you and you alone where you are not copying other people. But that is so much easier said than done.
Hi Oneplusone and Kaz, glad a new thread has been started. I'd be lost without it! I haven't posted for a while but have been reading avidly. Christmas was a bit of a flashpoint for me but things have been fairly peaceful since then. My mother sent ds a birthday present, but has left us alone apart from that. I must be getting better because Mother's Day only impacts on me now in the sense that I am one, I don't really think about the fact that I have one too because I've accepted she didn't mother me in the way I needed and has been such a destructive force in my life that I'm far better off without her. It's only rarely that I think, for a split second, "I want my mum", and then I remember what she's like and don't want her anymore! I'm not sure how I've come to be at peace about this, but I think it's mainly this thread and books like Toxic Parents and some of Alice Miller's work that have helped me to see things from a different perspective. And for me distance from her (i.e. no face-to-face or verbal contact, just birthday and Christmas cards) has been the key to how much better I feel about myself these days. I have in the back of my mind that this year I may agree to meet up with her, but I know from what my sister has occasionally said that my mother is still expecting me to apologise and go back to being a "normal" part of the family, including seeing my father (that's never going to happen), but I think I'll need to see her again at some point, I think because I want to test myself to see whether I really have come as far as I think I have. Now I've written this, I'm wondering if that's a bit masochistic, will have to think on it a bit.
I too will be interested to hear about the Hoffman process. I read the book (can't remember the name now, by someone called Philip Lawrence I think??) and loved all but a very small part of it. It made so much sense.
hello, i have found it too!! to ally, thankyou for your post to me on the end of the last thread, i think last night i was just so very very emotional, and reading through the thread, and recognising myself in all of you, some more than others, was really strange. i went to bed and cried my eyes out, well into the early hours!! my love to you all, you really are inspirational, and by the sounds of it, very very strong. look forward to posting again soon xx
All I can think about is how my mother will be feeling so sad that she has got nothing from me and that it is all my fault. Not that I care about her btw but am sick of being the bad guy.
Still trying to work out what it is she did for me when she said all that was done was done for me.
I never lived with her from 15 months but when I have had ocntact I certainly haven't wanted anymore. Not seen her now for 15 years but she still is causing trouble.
When I was at home I was the eldest good daughter and thus trusted and or left to get on with it. My younger Brother was at that time far more of a handful (used to argue with and or shout at my Mother) and be very demanding, if he said jump they'd say how high. This continues to this day. They still run around after him, my Mother still cleans his house (that all started when she originally moved to my hometown, my Dad was still working full time and she was thus stuck at home bored silly with nothing to do all day. Instead of getting a job and a life, she decided to clean my brother's house). Actually I get on okay with my Brother but I don't see him very often these days.
Think my Mother feels sorry for him as he lives (unsurprisingly) on his own.
Your thoughts are welcome. I gave up on them frankly a long time ago and now have no expectations at all. Easier that way.
Oneplusone - you are now in charge naturally my setting up another thread was a bit silly
Attila - okay so you are the 'capable' one and 'able to look after yourself' whereas brother 'needs looking after'. I guess your brother reminds your mother of someone in her past and she is recreating the relationship. Interesting in my dh's family, his sister seems similar to her maternal grandfather, adulterous, drinks like a fish, verbally aggressive etc...and his mother dotes on her. So it could be your mother is recreating patterns from childhood relationships? Not that this helps you. Would you say you are emotionally divorced from them or do you still get bouts of anger and hurt?
"Attila - okay so you are the 'capable' one and 'able to look after yourself' whereas brother 'needs looking after'. I guess your brother reminds your mother of someone in her past and she is recreating the relationship".
Could be. My Mother is an only child. Both her parents (i.e my grandparents) are now deceased. I do remember my Nan always being kind to us as children and I miss her to this day, infact both my Nan and grandad were kind but my Grandad did sometimes show a harsher side to his nature.
"Interesting in my dh's family, his sister seems similar to her maternal grandfather, adulterous, drinks like a fish, verbally aggressive etc...and his mother dotes on her. hmm So it could be your mother is recreating patterns from childhood relationships? Not that this helps you. Would you say you are emotionally divorced from them or do you still get bouts of anger and hurt?"
In answer to your last question I feel both emotionally divorced from them and hurt although the bouts of both anger and hurt happen less now. It was more acutely felt when my DS was younger. I am only thankful for my wonderful DH and son, both of whom keep me sane along with my real life friends and MN too!.
Think I should read that book called "Divorcing a Parent".
Anyhoo Ally, how are things your end?. Hope your parents are still well at arms length away from you, they are truly toxic individuals.
Tis a wonderful book, Beverly Engel divorced her own mother and is a psychotherapist so she sees it from both perspectives.
She does go through all the detail you need on how to emotionally and physically divorce and work through your childhood feelings etc, can't say I did all that with my divorce but its helpful to read it all.
I'm okay, thanks for the validation about my parents no contact since xmas. None this valentines, but not unusual now, next date will be dh's bday then dd's bday...we'll see if she has learnt no means no... miracles do happen.
For those interested the Hoffman Process is an 8 day retreat where you have no contact with the outside world. It sounds a bit cultish but isn't as my DH will agree.
My DH before he went on had anger issues, he had never hit the boys but he had scared me a couple of times. He also lacked self esteem and the ability to make relationships. All changed since his return, he can control his temper even when two boys (6,4) are doing there best to wind him up. He is better a partner, the dependency has disapeared and has just had a promotion at work. For him it was I quote "life saving" and our house is a happier more respectful place.
The basis for the course is Negative Love, basically if our basic human right of unconditional love is not met in childhood then we take on our parents traits as way of saying "Look at me, i am just like you - will you love me now". Its a bit more complicated than that, as I will find out shortly .
am about to go to bed, but in short had an emotionally abusive upbringing, with some physical abuse disguised as "deserved punishment for wrongdoing". I was lucky in that my mother was "the rock". Her love was unconditional, and incredible.
There are some issues I have dealt with, some are still works in progress.
My toxic father has so many issues of his own I pity him his inability to even see that he needs help. (toxic parents is an incredibly apt term, whoever coined it is a genius)
He's the reason I'd like to join in. Most of the time he's not a problem since I live in another country. Some days however, he manages to come up with the most incredible crap it's astonishing. It would be nice to chat with people who understand when he does.
I am happy to share more another time when I am not dropping off to sleep. Thanks for welcoming me.
hello all, hope you are all well, today is a double whammy for me, it is not only mothers day, but is my mothers birthday also!! my own kids have been wonderful, especially my 5 yr old, who came in to wish me a nice day, every 20 minutes from about 5.30am!!. i have bought my mum a birthday present, some bubble bath by innoxa, called love and happiness!! its meant to be quite tongue and cheek if thats the right expression, plus her birthday card says happy birthday, hope this day is as magic as you!.
i have not however bought her a mothers day card, and will be dropping of her bithday present with her neighbour, or failing that, i will throw it over her back fence, as i know she is going to my "posh" perfect sisters house for the day. so i wont have to face her.
both my mother and my father were rather cold as i grew up, and favoured all my sisters, cuddling them in front of me, from being very little, and me just sitting there, aching for some "kind" attention.......
oh its a long story, i dont want it to take over my thoughts today, so i will post again soon. i wish you all, a lovely sunday with your immediate family. lots of love matilda xx
Always avoided buying my mum those 'bestest mum ever in the whole world' type cards, just got her 'happy mothers day,XXX.' I may be a lot of things, but insincere I am not!
Middle Sister called on Friday, left message: "I haven't heard anything (had I given birth yet?) so I thought I'd call and check on you." Pleasant, professional phone voice. --- My Oldest Sister came up last week to help with the baby-she's here waiting with me. Middle Sister apparently can not get over this...OS here first. Like, how could I choose OS, the black sheep child of the family, over her-the golden one? (OS is a nurse...) --- So I called her back (at her work), smiles everyone-me pleasant too... I am fine, etc. She mentioned that OS said the last time she (MS)talked to her that I'd be induced a couple of days after my due date. I was silent at this wondering when OS and MS talked...pretty long silence(she probably thought I was silent speaking to OS right there-I wasn't, but no matter)...finally I said, "I'm going to be induced on Tuesday." She doesn't respond to this, instead she moves on to the next question-her conversations with me are a la interviews - or rather her script.
MS asks if OS and I are having fun. I said "I am 3 days past my due date, how much fun do you think I can have? I mean it is not like we are going out partying, MS." Tersley: MS: "Let me rephrase that." Again with more acid: "Letmerephrasethat..." "Are you enjoying her company?" <<<wtf kind of question is that?>>> I say with a little attitude: "Yes, of course I am enjoying her company; I have always enjoyed her company." Long silence. MS says, dripping toxins, "I will talk to you later." I begin to say, "About Tues..." MS: "Iwilltalktoyoulater." I: "But.." MS: acid repeat I: "Fine, bye" and I held the phone away, but let her hang up first. OS Told DH-he
<<<<Well, MS didn't stay on the victim spot very long- back to persecutor-Bad, TMSB, bad!>>>
So she hasn't called back-48 hours. Time for my email to her (just now):
sub: Change of plans Dear MS, "Talk to me later?" Don't bother. It used to be that you'd offer suggestions and advice for me to use in my circumstances, but now you are in the habit of pushing bossy orders on me and if I choose a different solution or answer you become very angry with me. Until this behavior of yours changes, I am putting our relationship on hold. The plans we have made for you to be here are canceled. I will invite you to visit when I feel I am ready to cope with you. I will send email if or when there is any news, or photos. Sincerely, TMSB
If she does call and if (or whenever) I am feeling cavalier enough to pick up - I'll say: "I'm busy, I'll talk to you later." repeat mechanically x3 interrupting her, then hang up.
I thank you all for being here and giving support and guidance. Without you, I probably would have never done that, which I seriously needed to do. I feel relief. I feel in charge of my circumstances rather than just a respondent to my circumstances, iyswim. Not only is she not coming here as planned, but I set another boundary of communicating only by email.
Several of the last posts on the previous thread have offered clarity for me- oneplusone, mampam. Thanks Ally. And Kaz on "Changing my mind", lol---offering a clue to MS that I have myown mind? MS will undoubtedly jump back to Victim spot on the Drama Triangle and "I changed my mind" will undoubtedly be useful.
Smithfield- I hope you and your family are doing well. Sakura- I hope your travels are going safely and that you can stay in "monitor mode" while around your family (ie somewhat detached).
hello, I am new to this thread,but not to mumsnet. I am about to embark on a series of re learning ie to get rid of all the negative 'rules' set down by my parents.I know it is the right thing to do and I am glad this thread is here as it has already helped me feel more human. I am very scared,however. The first exercise I have had to do is write a lifeline, with examples of how they instilled negative values. i have got a bit stuck now- a phrase keeps repeating itself 'big trouble' and i don't know what it means. All i know is that it makes me feel very nervous and sick and I know i don't want to remember.Don't know what elseto say really.
tomanystuffedbears:... hello, your sister sounds like one of mine!! i think you have done yourself proud with that email. i myself havent really found any courage yet, except we did not even go round to drop the present off, i have not heard a word from her, i must say however i feel quite nasty. even though nasty is something her and one of my sisters have mastered the art of, where i am concerned!!
podmog: i am new also, and i understand your post totally, i feel like i am betraying a dark family secret, by posting on here, and if i get found out, i will get punished severely (i am 41 for christs sake!!), but the childhood feelings never quite leave you do they? i still havent told my "story" i think it will take a lot of rambling and snippets before i feel able to do so, but just being here is a massive step, and if you read through the last post, i think you will find others that have pretty much exactly the same feelings and "problems" as you. you are in safe hands hope everyone else is ok, have a good week x
Smithfield, Just wanted to add my belated best wishes to you on the birth of your DD
This is my first year in not being a hypocrite and buying my mum a "You are a great mum" type card with the accompanying gift that she'd look down her nose at then point at the present that DB or DS had bought her and it feels good
Has anyone else experienced really deeply suppressed memories and had to go through the trauma of remembering? Although I know it was bad-I am very frightened of how bad it willbe once I start the talking/sorting out process.
I've just googled NPD and though neither of my parents fit into it, it ticks every single box of my best friend, whom I've known for 20 years and who is about 15 years older than me.
Hi, Podmog, I have just quickly skimmed through the posts and saw your comment. I have I suppose 'kind of' remembered some deeply suppressed extremely painful memories and feelings. But i also am frightened of how bad it will be once i really allow myself to fully remember and experience the feelings associated with some very traumatic incidents from my childhood. I have allowed some memories to surface and I can't deny that the experience was very painful and involved lots and lots of sobbing on my part . BUT in actual fact allowing yourself to experience those feelings is very healing and ultimately allows you to release yourself from your past so it is a good (but painful) thing to go through.
I have (hopefully) found myself a new counsellor who will i hope help and support me whilst i experience some of the worst memories from my childhood. Are you seeing a counsellor?
I would also recommend reading Alice Miller, she's written lots of books all of which are excellent. Her website is also very good alice-miller.com
Well done for posting on this thread, posting on here and reading other people's experiences and comments has helped me enourmously and I'm sure you will find huge support here.
It has been a huge decision to go and see someone. I am worried about it- well petrified really as I know there are things I have blocked out. I have to do it now, or I risk damaging my 4 gorgeous children. I parent soooo differently to how I was treated so I hope have broken away from them. I feel very guilty and feel like I am about to betray them- the mantra at home was 'what is said and done at home, stays at home'
THank you for letting me join this thread and huge thanks to whomever it was, that had the courage to start this thread. The thread name alone sent shivers down my spine!
Podmog - the supression is worse, because even if you think you have broken the cycle you are still affected by what happeneded all those years ago.
Well done for taking the first step, it is a very brave thing to have done. It will be difficult, it will be painful but it will be life transforming for you and your kids.
Hi Podmog, I'd agree with what oneplusone and kaz say about it being painful to allow the memories to surface but that doing this is very healing and allows you to move on.
In the past year I've had some very painful memories resurface (have not seen or spoken to my mother in 18 months, and my father not for over two years). I'd sort of always known the memories were there, but spent the past 25 years or so trying to deny/ignore them. The recollection was traumatic but I felt so much better afterwards, not least because I could accept the memories as true and reject the part of my brain that had been programmed by my parents to deny that anything was wrong in my childhood (won't repeat my history here as the message would be long! but I posted intermittently quite a lot on the first and second threads and I'm sure their existence saved my sanity). I know there is still lots to remember but I found that I got to a stage where I needed to stop for a while and I think my subconscious is protecting me again (no idea if this makes any sense, hope it does!). It's part of the reason I haven't posted for a while as well. It's like I can deal with a few of the memories and then I have to step back for a while. Then take a deep breath and deal with the next bit. I know when I'm ready to start dealing with the next lot of memories because things start coming back to me again, which is the stage I'm at at the moment. I saw a therapist but she wasn't for me so I'm just getting up the strength to find another one. I think it's been said before on these threads, but if you don't feel comfortable with the therapist, don't be afraid to tell them you don't think you can work together and then try out someone else. Hope it goes well for you. It's a brave step to face these things but 100% worth it.
I don't quite know what's going on in my head. I have gradually worked backwards and the person who is helping me reflected back to me what we had been talking about and it wasn't until I heard that, I have considered that my experiences as a child were abuse-it's all abit of a muddle. I have always felt uneasy about it all, but then when you start really remembering what went on - it is all horrible and not normal at all- childhood, I mean.
Sorry- I am waffling-just needed to write it down.
Thank you for your response- I think I am going to stop posting though about this as you have all moved on really and its not fair for me to drag you back to my starting point.
Hey Podmog, we all started somewhere - if you feel this thread can help you, please post. If you want to ponder some more on your own first, that's OK too. The lightbulb moment when you start realising that your / one's childhood isn't what other people would call a normal one brings a huge rush of emotions. Did in my case anyway. Take care of yourself.
We are all at different stages Podmog, post away. Its always good to read other peoples stories, and your story could help other people who are at the same stage as you...its all valuable knowledge.
Podmog, as ally says we are all at different stages and it is most definately 2 steps forward and 1 step back. If i had posted something yesterday i would have sounded fairly together but today i am a mess, have been crying all morning and feel very emotional. So please do not ever feel you are dragging any of us back, we are all here to help and support each other, whatever stage we're at and that is what has made this thread so invaluable to all of us.
The only difference for me now is that i do have some idea of what i'm feeling and why whereas even 3 0r 4 months ago i wouldn't have had a clue.
I have realised that a lot of the anger and rage i sometimes feel towards DD, is not anything to do with her, but to do with emotions that have surfaced from my childhood in relation to when my 2 sisters were born. I realise i must have felt a lot of anger and rage at them for taking my mum away from me and for her giving me less attention and love (although i also know now she didn't even love me in the first place) and the anger i now feel towards DD is the anger from my childhood. The only reason i know this is because i have read so many books on this subject and they have enabled me to realise that having your own DC's sometimes takes you back to your own childhood and you experience emotions in relation to your DC's that you first originally felt towards younger siblings but suppressed at the time.
It has taken me what feels like forever to work this out but I know it's the truth as DD never has and never will do anything to deserve the sheer amount of rage and fury and i am ashamed to say hatred i have felt towards her on occasion. I am sure that these feelings are long suppressed emotions from my childhood in connection to my 2 younger sisters who i must have felt, as a child, 'stole' my mother from me and also who she seemed to love and want far more than she ever loved or wanted me. I am sure that my natural reaction to my 2 sisters when i was a child would have been anger that they were there, and hatred towards them for 'spoiling' my family which would, before my sisters were born, have been just me and my mum and dad meaning that i got all the attention and 'love' that every child needs and craves from it's parents. I was nearly 5 when my middle sister was born and 7.5 when my youngest sister was born so i had nearly 5 years of being an 'only' child. It must have been a huge shock to my system when not only was my middle sister was born but my mum was 'besotted' with her and bonded with her in a way she never had with me. Their relationship is close to this day whereas my mum and i were always distant and i never felt any closeness or bond with her although this is what i know i have longed for all my life.
A few months ago i thought that the rage i felt towards DD was suppressed childhood rage at my mum but i don't think that was right as i don't think i ever felt real rage as a child towards my mum, only confusion, pain, longing for her love and anguish but not rage. But i am sure i felt rage towards my 2 sisters and i am sure that i suppressed that rage and it is coming out now triggered by DD. I never seem to feel that way towards DS and i don't know if that is because i don't have any brothers.
After feeling very angry i have found that other emotions start to surface, usually sadness, pain, anguish and grief. And that is how i am feeling today, very low, but i have been through this a few times now and i know it's a good thing to get the feelings out. It's just very difficult to do when you're alone at home with nobody for company but the DC's and i try not to cry in front of them as of course it upsets them. Ideally i need a live-in counsellor!
Am sorry for my extremely long ramble, but i have posted all this as i feel it might somehow help some of you who i know have also experienced rage towards your DC's where you know it's all 'you' and not them.
bearsmom, everything you say makes sense to me and is pretty much what i've been going through. i hope you find a good therapist. I have spoken to 3 and i am going to 'try' them out next week and hopefully one of them will be right.
i have also found my eczema flares up when my anger comes to the surface and the eczema has almost become a sign to me that 'something's' happening in my head/emotionally as my body seems to know before my head does that there are some suppressed emotions that are about to come to the surface. Weird but true.
I am struggling big time today and I have three children at home- my eldest (10) is poorly. I received an invitation to a reunion/celebration thing of an orchestra I used to play in. My brother (who of course was always far better than me!) was also a member and my mum ran the tuck shop and was on the committe. She phoned today and I mentioned it and she is sooo angry she has not been invited- it is really funny. Then she starts to quiz me about how I will get there etc and then spins the whole thing round to the fact that the musical director who is retiring has been ousted. WTF- she lives no-where near these people anymore so how does she know- fairytales in the extreme I fear! A small example of her jealous,controlling nature.
I am also waiting for the proper sessions to start- which is excrutiatingly painful,especially when I have made a decision to get on with it.
I dislike mine rather- but don't know how to deal with it yet. Rather selfishly I 'manage' her and try to take everything with a pinch of salt.As there is only my brother and I- I have a financial interest in inheritance, which at the moment, rather remarkably, is evenly split! That sounds sooo awful!
Another book recommendation-How to manage your mother. by John Cleese's wife.
oneplusone - poor you. i have also felt the rage you describe. for me it comes from no-where, perhaps just the small everyday irritations of living with a 2 yr old. but it's completely out of proportion to the reality of her 'naughty' behaviour, and sometimes she hasn't even really done anything at all. it's a scary thing to feel actually. you say you've read some good books on the subject - do you mind me asking which ones? I really feel this is something I need to investigate as I'm not entirely sure who i'm angry at. Could be my younger brother, could be my parents. not sure.
Attila, I read the post you wrote about the way your mother treats you and then the way in which she treats your brother. If it helps, its quite clear that this different treatment is not because she loves him more than she loves you but because for whatever reason, he is easier to control. Cleaning up after someone all the time is not helping- its enabling. She's enabling him to live like a slob so that he continues to "need" her and so that she continues to have an important role and she can feel gratified that she is needed by someone. Its a little dance and has absolutely nothing to do with love. "The COntinuum concept" and "Letting Go as Children Grow" (based on the COntinuum concept) talk about this. THat a child's room will continue to remain messy as long as the parent does not empower the child. For example as a child my room was always in a state- a real mess, and yet since I've cut off my mother, I now have a routine and am as tidy as you can be with a 1 year old. Its because I am in control of my space, my kitchen and my life. My mother would sporadically enter my room and do a spring clean while I was out (rifling through my stuff while she was at it). I would feel violated after one of her 'spring cleans'. But never once did she show me how to use the washing machine. In fact if I took it upon myself to tidy something, she'd shout "LEave THAT! I'll do THAT" as if I was steppping on her toes or something . On the first thread, Greensleeves called this "camping out in my own life" i.e not organising your space and cupboards in a way that makes sense to you. This could well be how your brother feels about all of this.
Hi Podmog, please post whenever you feel like it. And don't worry if you don't feel like posting for a while. People on these threads often take a break when things get too much, but someone is always here for support which I know for me has been a godsend. We're all at different stages, but I don't think any of us would ever forget how it felt to start out on this journey. My realisation that my childhood wasn't normal was an incredible shock too, as my parents managed to convince us all that we were the perfect family and that what went on was absolutely normal. I still cannot relate to a normal father/daughter relationship, for example, which is one of the things I have yet to resolve. I can't really see an end to this "journey" of sorting out my past and stopping it from ruining my present and future but at least I'm moving in the right direction, rather than stuck in my awful family. Sorry, not very articulate but ds wants me to play with his farm and is getting v. annoyed with me so I must go! Take care of yourself.
NAB, sorry you're having a rotten day today. Hope it gets better.
Oneplusone - I get eczema too when stressed, broke out a while ago, not sure why but I did wonder if something was going on subconciously.
TMSB - Was it this week you were going to be induced? You've been quiet for a few days...!! Thinking of you xx p.s. your post about your ms made me laugh again...good for you sending that email!
Sakura- I do believe we have the same mother...she too did the springclean/rifling through my belongings...not letting me help wiht housework 'let me do IT!'...then she wondered why I refused to help with housework when I was older I too was not taught anything which was strange with her obcession of housework, but it could have been a way of making sure me and my sister would always need her, same as my dad not telling us how to do DIY stuff, they were always 'too' happy to help with these things. I do the FlyLady thing now on the housekeeping thread seeing as I was never taught by my mother how to keep a house clean/how to clean . The FlyLady website is very good too...its very into overriding the negative parent voice in your head that says that your house will never be good enough/clean enough.
Totalmisfit and oneplusone - I feel rage at other peoples children. I think I put the mother into my mothers place and the dc into my sisters place and the relationship replays. I feel like raising a hand to the child, luckily I have always raised my voice instead and got angry at the child. But the rage I feel!! I literally get the blood rush to my head...I guess that is suppressed anger from the blatently unfair way my mother treated my sister and I. My sister could get away with anything yet when I did something my mother and father came down hard on me because I wasn't sensitive like my sister...and the fact that I was easy to quash...my sister when she wanted to could tell them what to do...maybe I should do a session with the therapist on this one!
hello all, still felling pretty low and very emotional, i think this is the emergency stage or something, so my psychologist called it, I found therapy very draining, even though my last one was really good, i just could not handle the few days after and the panic attacks,especially having the little ones to look after. and such like. however i do think at some point i will have to return, to come to the resolution, "acceptance" stage that i was told of. i would just like to point out, i did not mean all councellors were dangerous, although i did meet one many years ago, and she was very damaging to me. ally90, of course hugs are ok!! and thanks for sending me one, all of you, have a happy positive friday, and a lovely weekend xx
Hi Matildax, sorry you had a few bad days, but those days should hopefully start leading to good days in the future, hard to go through those days though...esp with LO's around...
I'm having one of those days today. Friends are the issue today. Discussed with therapist about my friends problem. I seem to be projecting my mother and sister roles onto them. Even tho discussed this all with therapist on wed night, today I open myself up to ridicule and critisim again today with a friend. We do have nice chats, but I always say something to provoke a reaction from her. Its like some kamikarzi urge! Lemming like I see an opportunity for someone to jibe at me about something I feel is v important and just go for it.... I don't know whether to distance myself from my friend and our mutual friend or to try and set some boundries...but because I'm scared of setting boundries...bit of a vicious circle. If only I could stay in adult...I'm going to have to go back to the chant I had when around my family 'adult adult adult adult'!!
Feel a bit better for that...I know that I am making the best informed decisions for myself and my family and if people disagree that is their lookout. In future I'm just going to have to think 'adult' and bite my tongue alot! And praise myself for being a bit different to everyone else, I may seem to think too deeply about things, but people generally in the end agree I've made the right choice...just takes them a long time to break out of their narrow minded ways to see it!
and calm.... honestly. Some people are IDIOTS! Sorry, their behaviour is idiotic...they are okay as people Now I feel better...!
Hi all, DD2 arrived safely on Tuesday. Everything went well-3 pushes and she was out. Oldest Sister was in shock dd2 came so quick. DH was out with ds & dd1 and arrived 10 min late, which was actually good for ds & dd1. I was not bothered at all that he 'missed' it. I didn't have much trouble being glad MS wasn't there, as she'd made a big deal out of it.
Middle Sister has not been communicated with yet...maybe I'll copy her on a brief email to others. After the Friday "I'll talk to you later" phone conversation, MS terminated my rider card on her shopper warehouse membership. Oooooh, such punishment, she is acting like a jilted lover. (I sent the email on Sunday before I found out about it on Mon.) OS & I agreed: more clarity.
I'll catch up reading posts since 3-4. Thanks again for all your kind thoughts, encouragement, and validation. Got to go, TMSB
Oooh, TMSB, I just got a little shiver at reading your post . Congratulations. IT sounds like the birth was fabulous . 3pushes!! Must be because it was your second. ENjoy your baby.
Ally, hmmm, friends. I was part of a really toxic group during school looking back now. I think Pages discussed this in the first thread- about how we were only attracted to people who must have had issues because the "normal" people appeared boring to us. We needed people who had what seemed like an edge to them, and edge of unhappiness I suppose. I wonder if this friend was one you've had since before you started working through everything. If so, theres a chance she's probably not good for you. I'm not saying cut her out, but perhaps just keep her at arms length and don't expect too much from her. I always had a "best friend" (and what a toxic term that is). We were co-dependant, basically. I broke away from that group and believe I couldn't have married DH and followed the path I have done if I was still involved with them because my need for their approval was so strong. If they hadn't have liked my future husband to be, I would probably have been swayed by their opinion.
Congratulations TMSB And well done, 3 pushes!! Lots of hugs to you and your new baby! Really pleased for you, and so proud you have managed to distance your ms at such an important time for YOU and the baby! xxxx
Sakura, she's a recent friend...but kind of got sucked into the friendship by another new friend who befriended me...tbh I'm not truly comfortable with any of the people I have made friends with from going to mother and toddler groups. Always feel a real reserve around them and at times stupidly childish. I know there are invitations for me to act that way...but I really need not accept all of them!! I think part of me is always hoping they will validate my decision to go no contact with my family, feel a bit like a dog trying to please the master...or the child trying to please their mother! Really need a jolt on this part of my behaviour...need my lightbulb moment!!
ally90 I kept hearing noises and I am sure things get moved. I know I am being paranoid as my biggest fear is my mother turning up so I think she has when it really isn't likely.
Hi - wanted firstly to say thankyou for all your lovely posts. You brought tears to my eyes with your kind words. Happy hormonal tears, that is.
TMSB- CONGRATULATIONS ! Sounds like we had similar experiences. I too was induced and then had a rapid delivery, 3 pushes here aswell, and DH 'almost' missed it. He arrived as she was crowning!
I have been keeping up with the posts... and my goodness there have been some really interesting, thought provoking posts.
Sakura- your response to Attila, really struck me.
I have as you know issues with the way my parents have treated my sister. They always take her side and have supported her financially, and continue to do so now even though she is almost 30. As a result she has never had to work, and yet wants for nothing (drives the latest sports cars, has a mobile fully paid for, designer clothes).
I think as you say though, this is about control. As long as she is bought and paid for they can control her, so they enable her finacial dependancy on them in order to maintain that control. That's not love.
I on the other hand always wanted to make my own way. I was always punished for my independance, by the withdrawal of any support by them. Sound similar to yourself Attila.
I also recognise where much of this stems from...with my father at least. He had a sister (he no longer speaks to her) She was favoured by his parents.
I think my father replicates this relationship with his daughters. He did initially with me ( I too was given a car etc) But as soon as I became independant I was pushed aside and my sister took my place. I feel this is a position she covets and often blocks direct communication between myself and my father.
Kaz- you said about the course you will be going on and how the foundation belief of that course is that we mimic characteristics of the parent we most want to please/ gain a connection with.
I never thought about this before as I thought I grew up hating my mother, but thinking about it now I believe all along I desperately wanted her to love me. The hatred, aggression came later as a defence to the hurt and pain she caused by being continually rejected/ disaproved of by her. And anger that she never had the ability to love or bond with me.
So it follows that I have definately taken on her personality traits ( and these are not particularly pleasant parts of my personality either). But something to work on for me.
Someone also mentioned (ally I think) the sibling role. As in seeing dc's as our siblings. I posted on here a while back about the rage a felt at ds crying as a baby, mostly when I could not soothe him and wondered if this linked to a memory of being left in a car with my brother as a baby when he was screaming. I was 6 and it felt like we were left for ages (even if it wasnt) and I felt rage toward him at that moment and then also resentment at being left with him when I didnt have resources to deal with him or soothe him.
Also someone posted about being an 'only child initially'. I was an only child until I was six when db came along and then 4 years later ds and younger db (twins). Those first six years were traumatic for me, there was no love or attention and my father left us for some time. So I must have resented in some way the arrival of my siblings when I had still had no love or nurturing from my parents, yet here was another vying for that love and nurturing I was craving. I have intense feelings of jelousy in many areas of my life and I think may be this is where it all stems from.
I havent been able to connect with feelings about this at all but I feel there is perhaps an enormity of unacknowledged feelings around the arrival of siblings. Some of which may be re-surfacing now.
Since giving birth to dd, I have had nightmares regarding ds. I wont go into them now, but I feel they symbolise fears I have about losing my relationship with him. I have had to spend a lot of time with dd, trying to get breatfeeding going and I feel she is pulling me away from ds. I look at ds and feel sadness and I wonder if am projecting my own feelings onto him?? Or if they are real. It's very confusing.
I also suddenly feel guilt is that I never truly bonded with him. Yet again I feel am I projecting this? It's very confusing. I did have PND with Ds, and I have always found it difficult to just 'spontaneously' play with him.. although I have fought against these feeling as much as possible of course....so some of my feeling are real, but Im wondering why it has come to the fore so much more now?
Anyway- I also wanted to say 'overall' things are good here. We texted family with news of dds birth.
My mother contracted shingles as a repsonse to dd's birth . it's ok....you have all taught me too well to fall for that one. But also think she is slipping as even Middle DB said 'apparently' she has shingles. But that also I feel she shot herself in the foot a bit coming up with a contagious illness this time . She sid however send some lovely flowers and chapagne which I will write and thank her for, and send a picture of dd at the same time.
DD's birth was Incredibly calm and quick enough that I finally got my wish to have a natural birth. Which also meant I got to hold my little girl and feed her straight away. That had been the most painful part of my previous labour as ds was whisked away to special care, while I was left on a recovery ward not knowing what was happening. all Id wanted at the time was to hold him So this 'was' a very healing experience.
Without the spectre of my mother hanging over me I have also been able to do things my ways this time.
So feeding on demand, and no dummies or schedules. Yes its tough, and I do have moments when I want to yell and scream, because as Danae so poignantly wrote...at times I feel my own unmet needs surface. I feel angry and resentful that she wants to be on my breast 'yet' again.
But I do see the benefits of unconditionally meeting her needs and how happy and settled she has become in a short space and this helps me overide those feelings (well for the most part...).
So I will sign of now, but I wanted to add (if you've managed to read this far!) ... a hello to the newcomers and to say (especially to Podmog), dont give up.
Its a difficult complicated task, but it brings with it the greatest rewards. Yes everyone here is at a different point in their journey, but it is a continual learning process and what this thread brings is the benefit of everyones experience. Oftentimes that will open your eyes to realisations for yourself which will in turn help you along that difficult journey. And also the benefit of the much needed support, fro those who understand the complexity of that journey.
Re love then anger hatred towards mother, thanks for that...validates my experience too
Difficulty bonding with ds...thanks again...and how you feel about dd now...yep...thanks again. Its so hard to have so many confusing feelings and have no sleep and raging hormones...everything seems so much worse. Does ds seem happy in himself? Is he old enough to ask what he wants? Like what someone said here, what do I do that you like, what do I do that you don't like?...good questions to ask in an okay way.
Remember it will all seem overwhelming at the moment...so much to cope with, and no nurturing from a mother (well not that you got much last time ). You are doing the best you can, you are a 'good enough' mum, not perfect but 'good enough' (as my therapist keeps telling me!). At least you are aware your ds may have feelings about his new sister. Remember you are paving the way for your dd's future now too, so that in itself is draining. Only too easy to shut a door and sleep through the crying.
You can do this, focus on the good you do for both your dc and yourself. You have permission not to be too hard on yourself for the next few months .
Sending lots of hugs and warm fluffy muslin cloths your way xxxx
I would love 5 minutes with my mum so I can say all I want to say and I hate myself for wanting that and for wanting a mum when she has been awful to me.
Chose her men man over me. Where I was happy, caused trouble so I had to be moved. Where I was really unhappy didn't make any contact. Threatened suicide if I didn't invite her to my wedding. Told my Nan my husband was nothing.
Nab, there is nothing wrong with wanting your mum, or rather possibly, a mum that was nurturing...just very sad for you and all of us that we do not have that.
There is no need to hate yourself for wanting 5 minutes to tell her what you feel about her. You have every right to be angry. And every right to be angry face to face. If you did something wrong with one of your dc, would you rather they were angry to you and got it out of their system and you give them a positive response ie listen and acknowledge and apologise, or for them to suffer in silence like you, fearing what response they would get?
Her behaviour seems very focused on getting all the attention on her and away from you. Deliberately seeking you out when she gave you up in the first place to deliberately sabatarge your life is the behaviour of somone very disturbed, or as Attila says 'mad as a box of cut snakes'. I'm not saying disturbed in a dangerous way (something I feared of my mother at my worst points) but someone seeking to make life difficult and unpleasant for everyone around herself.
HTH, got to go and have tea now, but had to reply to your post as it made me feel so sad for you. xxx
She will never change. I am 36 so she must be about 55. My husband would never let her in our lives and that is fine. I just want to make her face up to her actions but she never would and tbh it wouldn't achieve anything at all.
I only lived with her until I was 15 months anyway.
Does it matter that you didn't live with her? Your still scared now at the thought of her coming near your house. When I read about your past I was/am quite horrified at the lengths a 'mother' would go to to destoy her childs chance at happiness. No wonder you are so worried she will turn up now, when she did it whenever you were happier as a child.
Did she every turn up unexpectedly at a foster home?
Thanks everyone for your kind thoughts and encouragement.
Thanks also for your insights and grounded guidance because I received an "apology" letter from MS and I probably would have fallen for it if I didn't know what it was really saying.
This is hand written snail mail: (perhaps to set me straight that email is rude and impersonal?)
Dear TMSB, Obviously I have offended you in some way and for that I am sorry. I have been trying to figure it out for some time and have been unable to do so. I also have not directly addressed it to you before as I didn't want to upset you further.
Please, when you can, let's talk. By the way, I hope that everything went as well as expected and both you and DD2 are doing well.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Love always, MS ----------- She has not acknowledged my email (relationship on hold) and would not do a return receipt as requested...but from this letter I am presuming she read it. ----------- I see this as the unapologetic apology- "in some way"... "obviously"- well, what does it take for her to realize her effect-no self awareness until the relationship is . I am glad something regarding my feelings is finally obvious to her. Line 2- unable to figure it out...of course, from her universe, she won't be able to will she? Line 3- oh, TMSB is the sensitive one, so patronizing and condescending.
Let's talk? There really isn't any talking to her because if the conversation doesn't go her way, she ends it.
My baby and I- just 'by the way'? Diminished again.
Look forward to hearing from me? WTF is this: a cover letter for a job...she-boss, TMSB-employee. ----------- Also: the day after coming home from the hospital: MS called here and DH answered. Was the baby born? (Tuesday); is OS still there? (no) can she speak to TMSB? (no, she's asleep and I don't want to wake her) [end of conversation-nothing else-no what did the baby weigh, color hair, did I have natural birth or a C-section, etc.] It was all about the sibling rivalry, matriarchal control.
OS received a message from her (tersely) to return her call. OS did, to get it over with, as she predicted that she'd be blamed by MS for ??? my behavior? Sure enough. Why wasn't MS invited down for the weekend when we spoke last Friday? OS said I was about to invite her until she got so nasty on the phone and hung up on me. MS then claimed that it was I who hung up on her. OS stood her ground and said she heard my half of the conversation and saw me hold the phone out so (you) could hang up first. TMSB did not hang up on you. (no response to that)... so next item... Why was MS not called when the baby was born? Tbh, I had thought about calling her, but that was an old reflex from childhood training and to be able to resist it at such a time as immediately after delivery...well, I am kind of proud of myself. But OS saw that it bothered me, so she offered to call which would have been a huge gesture on her part for me. OS said the truth: she offered to call for me, and I told her no. Then MS was totally mad that OS didn't go behind my back and call her anyway. MS then used the 'control from beyond the grave' card (as I predicted) and lectured OS that Dad said she (MS) would be the one to 'keep the family together' (after his death) by her being the one to make compromises. OS and I really are having a hard time coming up with an example of when she EVER made a compromise -she is always black and white: her way or the highway.
Any thoughts or comments for a reply will be appreciated. Initially, I am going to copy the 'relationship on hold' letter and add the birth announcement to it as an addendum. Just the facts.
Yes, this did upset me and yesterday was not good because of hormones and serious fatigue. But it is also more clarity. And DH is finally telling me what he really thinks of her . If she can't figure it out on her own, perhaps I should suggest what she always does when she can't do something by herself-seek the help of a professional. If/when I ever suggest she seek counseling, she'll definitely "blow another head gasket" (OS's term ). Got to go-sorry I didn't edit or preview this time.
I hope everyone is doing well. Hello to the newcomers-take care-we are all on your side.
She would turn up unannounced where I was living and expect to just to be bale to take me out. She would also cancel when I was meant to see her at short notice. One time I had been to her house for the day and when the social worker came to pick me up, my mother told her she had only had to hit me once that day.
She used to phone, etc and cause trouble as she didn't want me to be happy with anyone else. I lived with one foster family who were lovely to me and I called the father Dad. She didn't like that and said I had to stop. Eventually I had to be moved. Thanks to someone on here I got their new address and we are in touch. They had kept photos of me for 30 years and have sent them to me. It means a lot as I didn't have any.
Hi TMSB! Honestly, last thing you need is that letter!
Umm...you told her what was wrong in the email you sent...
"Dear MS, "Talk to me later?" Don't bother. It used to be that you'd offer suggestions and advice for me to use in my circumstances, but now you are in the habit of pushing bossy orders on me and if I choose a different solution or answer you become very angry with me. Until this behavior of yours changes, I am putting our relationship on hold. The plans we have made for you to be here are canceled. I will invite you to visit when I feel I am ready to cope with you. I will send email if or when there is any news, or photos. Sincerely, TMSB"
Would of thought that covered the first two paragraphs of her letter???
She's taken the 'blinkered' approach...! Deny your experience/reality, assert ms experience/reality.
Looks like you have it all under control tho.
Love the lack of interest in your wellbeing re phone call, and the checking up if OS there first...lord, how old is she?
Think OS is great, re her asserting your reality. (Pat on back to her from Ally!! That's the kind of sister you deserve!!). Enjoying the 'control beyond the grave' did you ever watch "Only Fools and Horses"? Your in US? The eldest son always said 'before mum died she said...' and it was always to suit his circumstances at the time...Should be on YouTube if you had time (ho ho with baby?!!) to view!
Your doing really well TMSB, putting your needs and wants first. OS and your dh seem to really be there for you too...very important that.
Sending hot fluffy towels your way for the hormones and fatigue. Take care of yourself Allyxxxx
You can do this, focus on the good you do for both your dc and yourself. You have permission not to be too hard on yourself for the next few months .
Thankyou- so need to hear this.
It's like there are so many layers to be peeled away. The layer of the past child that didnt recieve the love and nurturing and so finds great difficulty 'at times' of providing it to dc's now as an adult.
Then there is the layer consisting of the long held negative script, which constantly berates and undermines any efforts to conciously parent our dc's in the most positive way we can.
The latter continuallly throws up our slip ups and says 'no your not good enough' sorry and stamps a big failure mark over the whole experience, regardless of the good to be found amongst said slip ups.
In answer to you questions re ds, he seems as happy as a lark. Says how he loves his little sister, that she is 'so cute mummy', and wants to hug and kiss her at every moment.
I think some of the guilt comes from me having been in a different place emotionally when I had him as a baby, and also the changes in my parenting toward him in just the last few months (since being on this thread, seperating from my parents) have been immense.
I realised despite conciously giving him the physical affection I never got, 'unconciously' 'by not playing with him as much as I could', there was still a level of emotional unavailability to me. I am still working on it though and will continue to.
So of course you then ponder on what damage you may have caused so far.
But I looked at baby pictures of ds y'day. And he looked so happy, so content, and when held by me or dh so loved. You are right I have to take a deep breath and say 'Im human I did/am doing the best I can for both my dc's' and I will continue to monitor, correct, improve my parenting'
. Felt very stupid and small last night when I had this revelation. 
naturally my setting up another thread was a bit silly 
So it could be your mother is recreating patterns from childhood relationships? Not that this helps you. Would you say you are emotionally divorced from them or do you still get bouts of anger and hurt? 
- I'll say: "I'm busy, I'll talk to you later." repeat mechanically x3 interrupting her, then hang up.
