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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Another DickFace to Add to The Pile

883 replies

PfftTheMagicDragon · 26/09/2010 13:08

....Of men that you thought wouldnever betray you but then did it anyway!

My DH has always been loyal. To a fault. Never cheated. Was cheated on in the past by girlfriends, worshipped the ground I walked on. Good sex life, with dry patches, we had started about a year ago to spice things up, toys, bondage.

Turns out, he's been internet flirting/sexting/fucking her on MSN!!

Delightful Hmm

It started 6 days ago. I have seen his phone. And the e-mails and a picture that they exchanged.

And now I am just like all the others. I did ask him how it felt - To be just like all the other cheating dickwads that I read about on here. If it was worth it, if he was thinking about what every other weekend would feel like when he was telling her how much he likes her wet pussy.

Super. Confused

I'm angry, can't you tell?

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 29/09/2010 11:26

Pffft I am very willing to talk about what ever you want.

I'm glad you're acknowledging the incremental steps theory that your H didn't become like this a fortnight ago. I absolutely believe that his porn use has had a corrupting effect, in the literal use of that word, not the hysterical connotations applied to it.

I suspect the solo porn use led to the forum, but because you seemed to be cool about that (and porn generally), it's almost as though he'd received "permission". I am a stickler for language and what it means and I reiterate that the statements on discovery are very telling. "I felt I should have been allowed to say those things to this woman.." "There was no-one stopping me..." et al. This is all about giving oneself permission and feeling entitled to do it.

The flirty forum was a major boundary crossed in your relationship and the stuff you post about the swinging sites is illuminating. It strikes me that because the forum members seemed to be perfectly acceptable, this was a further permission-giving process...i.e., they go to swinging clubs, so it must be okay.

It sounds as though your H might be someone who needs someone else to validate his actions - you or the forum members.

I wonder whether this crossed over into your everyday life, whether he is someone who rarely makes a decision through his own convictions or after original thought?

Now I want you to think about something else. Somewhere along the line in the last 20-30 years, it has become "uncool" for women to object to porn. Various myths surround what motivates the women who have the confidence to dislike porn, either on personal or political grounds - and judging by the Mumsnet boards, many of them are peddled by women themselves.

A horrible stereotype of a woman who has low self-esteem/body issues and dislikes sex is trotted out, whenever a woman has the confidence to assert she objects to porn.

I wonder whether any of this has shaped you Pffft and your own use of porn?

Loves and I had a similar conversation about our feelings about unsafe friendships and the compulsion to be "cool" about an extra-marital friendship that felt threatening, with the result that the friendship threatened everything. It's the same principle in action here, trying to be someone who is laid-back, confident and self-assured - but there is a dissonance, because I wonder whether deep within you, Pffft, you had a nagging voice about that forum and the porn? A voice you tried to ignore because it didn't sit well with your view of yourself as a confident, self-assured woman?

Can I challenge this and say that the woman who states her boundaries and isn't afraid to insist on them, is the really confident woman.

I agree with Loves incidentally that he might be misinterpreting the Relate counsellor's words, but equally it wouldn't surprise me, because Relate has got a long way to go in understanding infidelity. Some of the therapists are more evolved and read more widely, but too many of them peddle the pernicious myth that there must have been something wrong with a marriage for it to happen. I'd advise him to switch therapists pretty bloody quickly, because this is a man who likes validation and permission.

PfftTheMagicDragon · 29/09/2010 11:49

no, no - he didn't tell me that this must mean that there was a problem in the marriage. Before he went, I said that some of them work like this, on the assumption that this is the case. He told me afterwards that this is what she had said, that he didn't think it was true and that IF we went together we would see someone else.

OP posts:
YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 29/09/2010 11:54

Oh pfft, that's actually a very good sign.

PfftTheMagicDragon · 29/09/2010 12:13

madascheese Thank you for your bossy shouting Wink. I am not ready to go to Relate or similar yet. I told him that I wouldn't even think about until I had decided whether to give us another go or not.

Malificence - I mentioned at some point during the fallout that he needed to speak to someone about him issues. He told he on Monday that he had called them and made an appointment for himself. Thank you for the link (but not the goddy one, I don't swing that way WinkGrin) I shall look at it later.

He has made a list of all the things tha he wants to change and be better at, all the things that he thinks can help us. I was going to write some stuff down to say to him tonight. He will be here about 5, he arranged to leave work at 2 so he can be back at a decent time. So he will get to see the children.

misty welcome to my thread! Thank you for reading - it does go on a bit! I feel that he has had his chance for full disclosure. Maybe that is harsh of me but on Sunday and then again on Monday morning I did the full disclosure/anything I find out later/your chance to tell me everything now speech. I feel that he has had his chance for that. I can't keep making concessions. I hope you will stick around,thank you for talking to me Smile

brian I agree with you and Bast about the checking. It is getting to me already. I feel that I need to know certain things now. Once I have those, once I have the information related to the infidelity, I will not be checking any more. I won't check up on him regularly - I won't be policing him if we stay together. If he does it again, then he does..I would have to deal with that. If I couldn't trust him enough to not check, then I would not try again.

loves2walk Yes, I am going to mentioning that later on. He did not discuss the swinging thing with me. This is particularly pertinent as we have an agreement to have much better communication with regard to sex and things we might like to do/try which started a while ago. We were both trying to be more open with each other about such things. So he should have discussed it with me if he is telling me the truth. Saying that, I don't believe for a second that he is teling the truth about that so....

counting thank you for the link, I have bookmarked it.

now moving on to later replies...

OP posts:
sobloodystupid · 29/09/2010 12:17

so sorry Pfft had a similar discovery myself last week. SadStay strong.

PfftTheMagicDragon · 29/09/2010 12:32

YKNotC
From what I can gather, Relate went like this: (Bear in mind that this is my paraphrase of his telling, so it might all be rubbish!) The counsellor said that there must be a problem in the relationship as otherwise he wouldn't be there. That yes, "events" had occurred but that there must be a problem, and they weren't really anything to do with each other....Hmm Sounds like my type of woman Hmm

WWIFN Do you know my husband?

My husband is a man who has troubles forming his own opinions. It is not that he is particularly weak willed or weak moralled, but that he is easily swayed by the actions and thought/opinions of other people.

I think it is completely true that other forum members think that swinging is ok, so he thinks it must be ok. Because he thinks that these are like minded people. He had general chats with them on the general subject of off forum one on one chat with other forum members before all of this happened. So he was wondering if it was acceptable. They all said it was fine. And of course, because he can't form his own opinions, he takes on whatever anyone else says and moulds his opinion to that.

With regard to the porn. Yes, I am not totally confident with it. To talk about the forum first, initially I was unsure. I didn't accept it for him though, I did want somewhere to be able to talk about sex with other people and there are not many options. I was uncomfortable with the general atmosphere. I suppose what I was after was more of a sexual relationship minded MN. I was not happy with things like the avatars and the photos posted, BUT, once there and you speak to people it did become less of an issue. But never truly a non-issue. I felt that the flirty stuff was something that I put up with for the talk and advice. Saying that, if there was another option out there, I wold never have stayed. I think that mu husband enjoyed it a lot more.

The porn. this is hard for me. OK - I am not totally comfortable with it. I don't feel the pressue to be a "cool" wife though. And I do honestly believe that if, at the very start of everything, I had said no, then he would have stopped.
I don't have a problem with theoretical porn. I don't have problem with the idea behind watching people have sex, or sexual themed films. The reality bothers me though, the reality of porn and the industry andwhat it does to women. And the reality of how awful and vile most of it is.
So I would have to admit that I probably brushed the realities aside when I should not have. Maybe I felt that once we were so far through that I couldn't say to stop at that point. I'm not sure though, separating thoughts and emotions is a little tricky now.
The worst thing is, that I consider myself a feminist. I follow the blogs about Hooters in Bristol and have seen the awful comments about hairy troll like women objecting to such things. I feel like I have betrayed myself by allowing this shit. I can't even look at it now. Maybe I was trying to do what I supposed most people did within their sex lives.

OP posts:
YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 29/09/2010 12:39

Ah yes, she sounds more of h's first counsellor's ilk Hmm. He would say "I have done this to dw, i am a terrible person an feel awful", and she would say "you can't take all the blame, where is ds's responsibility in what you did?"

And yes of course he let her, so he is to blame, but I do remember times when he came home saying, "I don't like what she's saying" and I just encouraged him to stick with it and assured him there must be a reason for it all.

She didn't make him do anything, but she made him feel better about what he was doing. Much in the same way the people on those forums reinforced your h's behaviour.

Thank god your h had the sense to see the damage she would have caused.

Sorry for recounting all that, Not sure how relevant it is to you Blush

PfftTheMagicDragon · 29/09/2010 12:44

I like to hear it anyway Grin

OP posts:
YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 29/09/2010 12:49

Oops, not ds's resp, "dw's"

Thanks pfft :)

SandyisinCaldwell · 29/09/2010 12:58

Pfft: I have sent you a PM Smile

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 29/09/2010 13:23

Pfft I'm fascinated with this and have much to share with you.

Do I know your husband? No, but I can tell you with absolute conviction that there is a link between someone who is swayed by others - and infidelity. I often say that there are certain behaviours that make a person more vulnerable to infidelity and knowing one's own mind and not being afraid to state a conviction, even if it goes against the herd, is right up there. It's more than moral courage really - it's about forming a view, having heard all the arguments for and against - and then sticking to it, even if it attracts derision and scorn.

We have so many examples in history and the news, of people being persuaded that something so fundamentally wrong, is right, because they lack the character to challenge. So they follow the easier route of pretending that the wrong is right. Then there are those who know something's wrong, but fear the consequences of saying something - the concept of "all it takes is for one good man to do nothing...."

So here we are with your H, who is easily swayed by others' opinions and perhaps has difficulty forming his own. That is a behaviour worth its own discussion alone.

I think you've been really honest about your own conflicts about porn and I think this is being mirrored by lots of men and women who are stopping to think about the issues behind porn.

Have a think now about your own boundaries and how you can find a fit between your own sexual needs as a couple and your principles. It would be well worth having a discussion with your H about his views on porn - there is a sense that he thinks it's absolutely fine and he hasn't considered the deeper issues. Already there was a conflict there between your own political views and his. As time went on with that forum, you perhaps quelled the nagging voice and I can see that you would have had difficulty giving yourself permission to say "I know I was okay with this at first....but I'm not now."

The counsellor? I've heard this story many times before and it makes me want to combust. It's good that your H could see her coming, but I wonder whether that would have happened, had you not forewarned him?

Pfft what always surprises people is the journey you make yourself after a relationship crisis. This is causing you to rethink some of your own views of yourself and that is healthy and should continue.

PfftTheMagicDragon · 29/09/2010 13:57

This has been quite interesting, WWIFN, the links between his behaviour and his character traits, his failure to form opinions of his own, the porn, the chat and everything. Thank you so much, you have written so much down for me and really helped me understand some issues that I didn't really even consider issues.

I just don't know though, if even though I can understand the issues, even if we can talk to someone about why what happened happened....if I can get past it. I mean, even though he was likely to do what he did due to his traits and behaviour, and then add to that the spiral of porn and forums and stuff, he still did it. He still made the choice to do it, over and over. He messaged her, while I was in the room with him, while we were supposed to be spending time together. He stayed up until all hours in the morning talking to her and I was in bed. He had internet sex with her and didn't immediately feel so remoresful that he broke contact, he messaged her on FB and asked her if she liked it.

I know that I am still rolling through emotions over and over and my opinions will change, that tomorrow could bring another emotion with it. Right now, I feel that if we had no children, I would not stay. I don't feel a desperate longing for him, and I am quite certain that I do not love him after what he has done. I did tell him this last night and he said that he could make me love him again. BUT I am not sure that I want to. I am certainly not sure if I want to sit through months of talks and counsellors trying to work through his issues and the way I accepted things.

I feel alright without him.

OP posts:
Madascheese · 29/09/2010 14:16

Pfft, I hope you don't mind me keep coming back, (I feel a little ill qualified next to some of these very wise words you're getting and my perspective tends to be very practical if it's not helpful tell me to shove off - in a PM if you please Grin, I'm a little more fragile that AF and couldn't manage the public bollocking!)

I expect you're still pretty angry to be fair. I know I keep banging on about it and I also realise that to you this may feel as if it's been going on for a lifetime already. You've dealt with such a huge amount in 4 days.

One of the things that happened to me during the 4 years of divorce and custody battle hell was that I just got numb to my ex. utterly numb and I couldn't connect at all with how I used to feel about him...partly that's a self protection issue I think.

Maybe think about sorting some fun stuff to do with the kids at the weekend, or something for you that is a million miles away from all of this, your head needs a rest too.

BTW sausage, mash and onion gravy for the madhouse tonight, it's far too rainy and glum to consider anything else!

AnyFucker · 29/09/2010 14:20

I really want to be WWIFN when I grow up.

Madascheese · 29/09/2010 14:25

:)

AnyFucker · 29/09/2010 14:52

and to come to mad's house for my tea

Madascheese · 29/09/2010 15:46

you're welcome anytime... if you can put up with littlemad constant stream of chatter and questions about why he can't have as many legs as an alien? or what colour God's eyes are, or how does the bang in the firework box know when it's dark and time to come out.. I kid you not, these are all genuine questions I have been asked since I picked him up from school this afternoon.

Mouseface · 29/09/2010 15:48

Grin at LittleMad. Cute.

AnyFucker · 29/09/2010 15:55

erm, I don't think I can make it today, mad

an urgent hairdressers appt has come up

< head explodes >

RespectTheDoughnut · 29/09/2010 16:01

Grin 'LittleMad' sums it up. Bless him.

Pfft, you're working through so much - WWIFN is so good at this stuff. I hope you & the DC are doing okay :)

PfftTheMagicDragon · 29/09/2010 16:41

I am now awaiting the return of the husband. Thank you all so much for talking to me these last few days. Hopefully we wil l make some headway tonight with talking. So I won't be here again this evening. I shall post again in the morning and hope that you don't all disappear in the meantime!

AF - no sneaking off while I am gone to get off with Barmy behind the bike sheds

bye, lovelies. See you tomorrow.

OP posts:
gingerwig · 29/09/2010 16:43

sorry that this is negative, but my experience of relate was it was a disaster Sad

purplehatpipeandboots · 29/09/2010 16:46

Will be thinking of you Pfft. Be strong.

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 29/09/2010 16:53

Just spat tea at BA and AF behind the bike shed :o

Good luck pfft.

AnyFucker · 29/09/2010 16:54

Good luck, pfft x I will be thinking of you. We will still be here.

Yes, I am going to ask BA what his intentions are towards me. I think it is love...nothing more, nothing less. He can deny it but we know the truth Grin.If he does the online equivalent of smacking my bum in the playground one more time, I shall offer myself to him Grin