NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

LOL, TimeForMe, you've just reminded me how XP used to ask me to get rid of the spots on his back as well! He always wanted me to take a picture on his mobile phone (as he couldn't be arsed to get out of bed to look in the mirror) and was obsessed with "Is that a big one? It feels like a big one."

And Thenamehaschanged - I could have written your list! But especially the job one. XP "held the company together" he was always "the only one who ever did anything" everyone else was "useless" and he was always being told that he should move somewhere else. Well.. when he did eventually move, his old boss told his new one "Good luck" and apparently he's been a complete nightmare. Losing customers, late, just all over the place. Wonder why he never did get anywhere??

XP didn't seem to be upset at the prospect of getting old but he always insisted he was an old man (at 25, FGS!) and used to insist on showing people his grey hairs (which were all caused by me, naturally!) WRT appearance though, the main thing was he was obsessed with the size of his own penis. Thought it was the biggest thing he'd ever seen, named it and relished the opportunity to "accidentally" flash it while coming downstairs in a bathrobe, or strut (yes, strut) naked around the swimming pool changing rooms (I have my friend's boyfriend to blame for this mental image), get people drunk and challenge them to compare sizes or just generally comment on how miraculous it was and how he would "split her in half". Yuk.

Are you okay, bottyburp?

Bertie - yeah I'm fine, just haven't opened this particular can of worms.

Definitely think my soon to be XH had NPD traits when I read stuff on here.

Just don't know if I want to open the box I've shoved it all into in my head IYSWIM

Oh, YEUCH, Bertie!

Reading some of the stories on thepsychopath.freeforums.org (thank you for that link) - I notice how many of the women have wondered, albeit briefly, if their N was secretly gay. I remember that's come up on our threads, too ... my mum told me the other day that she often thought dad was bisexual! Apparently he used to get "very excited" by the sight of fit, young men. She also said one of my brothers has asked her if Dad was gay. Plus, of course, everybody, including me, thought X#1 was gay - and my gay friends felt X#2 was, too. Not that I'm drawing any constructive lesson from this, it just seems to be another of those "Oh! Your N, too?" things - so worth mentioning.

I can't wait until I STOP wondering if I may have got it all wrong, and he's a nice guy who really couldn't stand my hideous behaviour ... I KNOW the truth but - like you, Bertie - have only known it for a short while really. My doubts are getting weaker, quite fast but not fast enough iyswim.

Oh yes BertieBotts the 'is it a big one, feels like a big one' is so familiar to me too.

LOL at your N's antics with regards to his penis. That gave me a bit of a giggle! My N on the other hand was rather prudish and had a problem with nudity. I very rarely saw him totally naked in the 11 years I was with him and when I did it was accidental. In the early days he would actually sleep in his clothes!

You know, looking back I can't help but wonder where my head must have been. I just accepted all of his odd behaviour as part of him and never questioned it. I am a little embarrassed now at the things I tolerated and didn't question. I thought I had recovered after an abusive marriage, I thought that after three years of being single my self esteem was where it should be but quite obviously it wasn't. I do know one thing though, I am well on my way to being a totally different person to the one I used to be.

IseeGraceAhead Do you mind me asking, how long have you been physically free of the narcissists in your life? I just wonder how long it takes to be emotionally and mentally free of them. Just when I think mine is history he pops into my head and lingers. It's as though he has infected my mind and I just can't get rid of him.

OMG IseeGraceAhead I have often wondered if my N was a closet gay!!! haven't even finished reading all of your post yet, just had to tell you! lol

Hi
by BPD do you mean Borderline personality Disorder?

The willy obsession does still make me laugh, I must admit. I mean, he really thought it was so important and had a life of its own. He wouldn't ever sleep naked, in case it got caught somewhere (I think he meant in a sofa sleeping situation, but then again he wouldn't sleep naked in bed either...) I've also just remembered that he used to ask me about my ex-boyfriends' penises and was very upset and even refused to believe me when I said that one of my exes was as big as he was.

I too have wondered whether my ex was gay. He was very very defensive about the very suggestion, even if someone was joking, and although he had gay friends also managed to be quite homophobic at times, though he obviously tried not to be. He was utterly convinced that his best friend (who is gay) fancied him. Also some sexual stuff, but I don't really want to go into that.

"I can't wait until I STOP wondering if I may have got it all wrong, and he's a nice guy who really couldn't stand my hideous behaviour"

I can so relate to what you say above. I sit and wonder this too but because it seems so far fetched to have someone behave as strangely, viciously, manipulative and controlling to the extent he did.

I wonder if it was my own behaviour, my low self esteem, my codependency that brought all these traits out in him, if he fed on them which would mean that effectively I created the monster he became. He saw my weaknesses and he homed in on them, the more I gave the more he took. The weaker I became the stronger and more narcissistic he became. By the time I left he had taken everything, there was nothing left of me. I literally felt as though I was dying. I was totally exhausted, there was nothing left for him to take. If Women's Aid had not got me out the day I rang I don't know what would have happened to me.

I need to stop thinking that if I explain in a reasonable way, then he will realise that he is behaving in an inappropriate way.

How do I stop that??

BertieBotts my ex N had no friends apart from one male friend who he adored, would do anything for. I used to think he would be better off living with him than me.

Something else that has dawned on me recently is how little I actually know about him even after all those years together. He was very secretive about everything. He would ask me questions about past boyfriends but never talk to me about his previous girlfriends. He was very secretive about his finances, I never knew how much he earned and he refused to put my name on the electoral register forms. I didn't matter at all in that relationship, I didn't count for anything. I was nothing to him.

bottyburpthebarbarian The million dollar question!

I tried until I was blue in the face to explain that his behaviour was unreasonable and damaging to our 'relationship' but somehow, it always became my fault. Any discussion usually ended in a violent rage and if I was lucky him taking off for hours on end. Looking back it just wasn't worth trying to discuss things with him. It would have spared me a lot of emotional heartache and left me with a few less bad memories and nightmares.

TFM, I'm scared to answer your question in case you decide to jump off a cliff or something! In my defence, I hadn't heard the term 'emotional abuse' until 3 years ago and it's about 2 years since I learned about NPD. I knew I was being bullied from 12 years ago, but nothing about techniques like gaslighting. Neither did I know there are conditions which can't be 'cured'. So I'm not doing too badly if you look at it as three years :)

Grace's CV of Craziness
1955: born to psychopath father + narcissist mother, lucky me.
1978 - 1990: narc H#1
1991 - 1997: narc SWF flatmate
1997 - 2003: narc boss, concurrent with:
1996 - 2001: narc H#2
1999: bad daddy died
2000: started therapy
2007: major setback; mum made me live with her
2009: moved here, decided to 'therapise' myself more or less full-time. I've had enough of this!

Over the past few months, I've been "emotionally divorcing" my mother & sibs.I'm quite pleased with my own progress - though am still beset by constant doubts, especially now my therapy's finished. Dunno WHAT I'd do without mumsnet!!!

TimeForMe - that's exactly what happened to me.

I had a thread on here at the beginning of last week how it was my FAULT that there was a bank holiday when it didn't suit him.

Everything is still always my fault.

We have shared custody of the kids, which is fine, but he still tries to control me, like for example, I had booked months ago to go out for the night on Tuesday, he texted "I need you to keep the kids on Tuesday I have to work"

I replied "No problem but remember I am out tonight so I can only have them until about 5"

Cue me being a bad mother who wasn't putting her kids first.....

And he never ASKS if its OK for me to keep the kids, doesn't say please or thank you - and I know that's petty but it winds me up.

Sorry that's so long.

Good lord....

My N had a drunken gay snog years ago. He's been fancied before by gays and though he protest at the thought of it - secretly he's flattered.

I also don't really know his full sexual past. OMG not only am I unclear on how many sexual partners he's had (though I'm sure it's not many) - I don't think I know how or when he lost his virginity. This is my husband of 7 years and my boyfriend of 6 years before that....

He knows everything about me......or at least, he thinks he does

bookmarking, will come back once the dc's are in bed and read the whole thread properly.

Hi Botty

Yes being to blame for absolutely everything is what I'm used to.

Being so worn out by trying to be reasonable in the face of him being totally unreasonable - I have been doubting my sanity on and off for the last 5 years. I'm still unsure whether it's me or not. Whether I really am a complete and utter loser - a no hoper, dragging us down as a family, never amounted to anything, never going to amount to anything etc etc.

.....I'm very glad I found out about NPD though.

sorry to see it's your family as well as your partners Grace. What a nightmare for you.

Bottyburp my ex is like that too. Either cancels at short notice or turns up so late I have to cancel or change plans! Grr! Also moans that I "don't let him" have DS overnight, but if I ever text to say "Do you want to pick DS up early/drop DS back later today/this weekend?" he's always mysteriously busy!

Over the last 12 weeks, he has stuck to the original contact arrangement just five times. He has cancelled one or both days the other seven weeks. I have changed the arranged visit time once during this time. (Took DS to a party which was planned in advance and I told XP in advance)

The worst part is he always insists that he's ill so he gets out of having to tell me any earlier!! I mean, who has six bugs in twelve weeks??

IseeGraceAhead I think you are amazing! I also think you are doing just great considering all you have encountered. My mother was toxic and I swear she too was narcissistic and I cut all contact with her 10 years ago. It was the best thing I ever did, apart from leave my ex N!!
I love all of your posts IseeGraceAhead, you come across as a survivor to me, certainly not a victim of your past

bottyburpthebarbarian once again I can relate to your post. I have found the best thing to do is not to tell the N anything! Do not tell him your plans because you can be sure he will sabotage them. In fact, the best way to deal with this is have as little contact as is possible. I only communicate with my ex N via email now and that is only with regard to important issues concerning our DD. Other than that I have no contact with him whatsoever. I keep out of his way when he collects and drops off DD so that I don't even have to see him. It's helping too.
As for simple manners, my ex N has none either. He never did say please, thank you or the biggie, sorry! He was entitled you see, you don't have to display manners or courtesy when you are entitled.

thenamehaschanged to this day I do not know how many sexual partners my ex N has had and nor do I know when he lost his virginity. He would avoid answering such questions at all costs. I used to think that maybe he was a late starter and just embarrassed by it!

I actually have it written into our separation agreement that he's to turn up on time and is not to be more than half an hour late without letting me know.

Does he bother?

Does he fuck.

And as for paying maintenance on time, half of uniform costs - does it all eventually - again its my banks fault that his maintenance doesn't go through on time.

And add into the mix he's been "saved" and is now convinced I'm going to hell

For wearing trousers/make up etc etc

Ah well

"I'm going to hell for wearing trousers/make up etc"
Still laffing out loud at that

My N had a very odd attitude to apologies. I remember an incident when we were out with some friends. We hadn't been going out long so I didn't know his friends that well, though we had stayed at their house the previous night.

One of XP's friends asked for a quiet word with him and they went outside. It soon became apparent that there was some sort of conflict going on. Everybody tried to calm XP down but he stormed off to the bar. I went and spoke to him, and found that apparently, his friend's mother had been offended by something I'd said or done (not sure why the friend didn't come and speak to me in the first place, but there you go). I was horrified and went up to the friend and apologised but said I had no idea what it was I had done, because I couldn't think of anything I might have said which would have been offensive. But I apologised if she was offended, and said I hadn't meant to offend anybody. He was happy with this and we shook hands and everyone was calm and normal again - but XP was furious that I'd apologised, because to him that was admitting fault, in his words "Why should you apologise, you've done nothing wrong. Now you've made me look like a liar for defending you."

He would also not apologise if for example he bumped into somebody in the street, because that was an accident, if he apologised, it would look like he'd done it on purpose.

Grace- I actually caught myself putting my make up on in the car on the way to work.

I was 38.

Thing is, to try and explain it to people, I sound nuts.

And he's so REASONABLE to people .....

I am, you all realise, psychotic, a nutcase, will never make anything of my life.

Lol, maintenence! Ha ha ha

I have given up!