NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Ooooh, I love KT... she is LOVELY....

Claim to fame.... well, kinda.... I saw her live in my dear friend's living room!

Narc is so hard to get your head around, I don't think my ex was one, although there were glimpses of it, but I think Narcs are abusive by their very nature, right?

Not abusive as such (you'd be looking at APD for that) because they don't quite register that other people have lives & feelings in their own right - we're all just props on their own personal stage, to be used.

As long as you serve your allotted purpose, they'll leave you be (or act nice, if that's in their script.) The problem is that other people, especially partners, are needed to fill the exact role your Narc requires. Since that isn't totally possible, given that you're a person with your own life & feelings, your N gets very very angry. When they abuse you, it's rarely meant to cause pain, they just don't know or care that you hurt.

Weird, I know.

Thank you all for your intelligent words. It helps tremendously to know that there are so many other people out there with the same experience as me, and that we have the same personal issues to deal with (perfectionism, need for approval, eagerness to please, lack of awareness of our own selves, our likes and our boundaries).

I understand the Narc's functioning, and it strikes me that abuse victims are very similar to Narcs in the mechanics of perceiving Self and Others as reflections and mirrors:

• Narcs don't see people, they see mirrors who serve to reflect their false sense of glory, or onto which they project their own self-hatred and blame.

• Victims of abuse also see others as mirrors before we see them as people. Or at least, this is the case for me (feel free to disagree). I am always anxious and scared in the company of others because I am so fixated on what they'll think of me and whether they'll like me, and I also project my own self-hatred onto them by assuming that no-one could possibly like me (and being pathetically grateful to the Narc who said he did, sticking around for 12 years as a result).

So my resolution now is to strive to see people as people rather than as mirrors, and to remember that I too am a person and not merely a reflection. The upshot of this is that it's OK if someone disapproves of me, it's their own choice and the result of their own quirks and opinions; it does not make me bad (my stbxh had such an easy time blaming me for the abuse since my reflex has always been to assume that if someone is upset at me, I must therefore be in the wrong, and if someone rejects me it's because I am worthless).

Does this strike a chord with any of you?

Hello, just stumbled on the last page. Itsmeandthepuppy, I can identify with you saying that as a consequence of living with some one like that all you see your self is someone's mirror, that really resonantes with me and my worries. Thanks for posting.

Ah, here's the thread, I was too lazy to look for it

garlicbutter, you're right of course that there isn't a documented connection between narcissism and obsessive tidiness. It's just that it seems the Ns most people talk about on here insist on a tidy house, external perfection I think, because if everything looks perfect it must by definition be perfect (though with some, at least, it's just another stick to beat their partners with). It just seems inconsistent with the narcissist's desire for complete control of his or her environment, that they should welcome untidiness. With XH it was like a rat making a nest with as much sawdust and chewed-up newspaper as its hole can hold; hiding from the world behind a pile of dustbin bags. That's not an N's style, is it?

After all the really serious websites and forums on abuse and narcissism I've been reading which have all been very useful here's one I found and wanted to share with you all, since it's a darkly humorous and sarcastic take on abusive relationships by a women who has clearly been through the wringer and come out on top, wit intact. It has me laughing out loud, anyway:

alexandranouri.wordpress.com/

Hi all. I've been reflecting tonight and I wanted to just come and offload a bit again.

I was thinking about the day I left XP, I was packing everything up while he was at work (he didn't know) and the short version is, he came back while I was doing it. I'm not going to go into detail on that now because I've remembered it once tonight and that was enough. The thing I realised tonight was that seeing him just break down as I took away everything that meant anything to him in life was probably the worst thing I have ever done. I never want to come close to hurting anyone as much as I hurt him that day. I know I had to, I recognise that he hurt me just as much if not more, slowly, over the course of the relationship, and I'm not sorry. I would do it again if I had to. (I hope I never do, though.) But I felt so, so awful. He didn't know - I think he probably still doesn't know what he did to make me leave. Or he wouldn't be repeating the pattern with his current girlfriend, would he?

The second thing was that I stayed totally calm throughout the whole episode, with him crying, then getting angry, me wondering vaguely whether it was a good idea to be standing at the top of the stairs, then him storming out with some ridiculous proclamation about how he was going to quit work now and that was all my fault. Then I walked around in a daze getting the last bits together with my mum, and then I just cried, on and off, for hours. And I realised I was feeling all this hurt, that I hadn't felt, for years, and it was raw, and overwhelming, and so, so strange. But I only just realised this now, tonight. At the time I just felt sad, about the relationship and about the house being empty and about XP being so upset and I think just the enormity of ending it. It's only now I look back and think no, I was so numb throughout all of it, everything that happened just after DS' birth and the individual upsets in the relationship and losing friends and the sex thing and I never really felt it as it happened, just this sort of disconnected feeling. And it explains why everything that has happened emotionally since I left has been magnified so much and has been new and raw again and like learning what all these emotions are, it's because I am learning them all again. It's been 18 months and I'm nowhere near recovered, but now I understand that part and it's such a huge indescribable thing. Sorry if this is incoherent. It's really clarified something else that happened as well just a few weeks ago. I got really stressed about some things and I managed to convince myself that my boyfriend wanted to break up with me, and he hadn't even said anything, but the pain of it - I was actually scared that I was doing myself some damage. There was a physical pain, a weight, in my chest, unlike anything I'd ever felt before, and I was so afraid. It literally felt like the fear was eating me. Now - I can see why I felt it so strongly, and it's made me less afraid. The fear is there still, but I understand it now, and it's so much lesser. I understand now as well why I wanted to wait longer before I got into a relationship. I'm incredibly lucky in that the relationship I am in now is healthy, probably more healthy than most, in fact, and boyfriend is great, he did back off during my "episode", but we talked about it, a lot, and he listens. I think I am ready to be in this relationship, but any other, I'm not so sure I would have been.

Anyway, it's 4am now and I'm completely emotionally drained, but it feels very very healing to be able to spill these thoughts out. I feel calm. Something else I never felt around XP.

Sorry, Puppy, to skip over your post like this. I'll definitely have a look at that link another time :)

Hi Bertie. Hope you are gaining more serenity today.

What I see in your first paragraph is the proof that you are a good, kind and very empathic person. You feel bad that you have hurt another person. That is all to your credit, but please don't beat yourself up about it: do you think that your XP is worrying about how much he hurt you? No, he's surely only focusing on how much he feels hurt by you, and unable to accept his own responsibility in hurting you, or even to comprehend that other people have feelings to hurt. So rest assured, if that helps, that he's doing all sorts of work focussing on how hurt he is, so you don't need to do quite so much of it... Please focus on healing your own hurt first.

I know what you mean about feeling numb while with a Narc. I know I did. Often it felt like I was having an out-of-body experience when stbxh had done something spectacularly hurtful or frightening. Instead of reacting with anger and fear or some other form of self-protection like I should have, I would just go numb. In a way, I was protecting myself that way: I preferred denial for 12 years, rather than face the fact that, yes, he really was that hurtful and frightening. Because accepting that would mean that I would have to get the hell out, and I wasn't ready to do that yet: I wanted to hold on to the dream that he loved me, that his abusive behaviour was just a mistake or that it was my fault (and therefore fixable), and that we could live happily ever after.

If you're feeling emotions more strongly now, maybe it is a good sign: that you are now listening to your emotions, instead of repressing them. No longer denying your self.

I am sad to hear you say that you felt this huge fear that your boyfriend wanted to break up with you. (He isn't playing mind games with you, is he? just checking). Tell that inner critic, the one trying to convince you that you are unloveable, to stfu. You are loveable, and you are worthy. And the best thing is you don't even need to prove it: you don't need to be perfect or pleasant or accommodating to deserve love. You deserve love simply because you are.

Not expressing myself v well, sorry. But I hope you get my meaning.

Hi Puppy, thanks for your reply :) I'm not beating myself up as such about hurting XP, I'm just very aware (if and when I think about it, which isn't often) that the way I was forced to act was so against the way I am and that is what bothers me, IYSWIM. But I'm not dwelling on it or anything like that.

And no, no mind games here :) you're expressing it perfectly. That's what my relationship is like now. I can just be me, I don't need to be perfect or anything like that. In fact that's what caused the whole doubt thing in the first place! I kept slipping back into this trying-to-be-perfect thing and then getting stressed when things went wrong because I was trying too hard, say I'd tidied up and then DS had messed it up again or something, so I was feeling like I wasn't being perfect enough and he was simultaneously being quite bemused at my efforts when - as you said - he only wanted me to be, not be something amazing or put myself under any strain etc, and he felt I was feeling pressured by the relationship and wanted to give me some breathing space from that. It's just that he didn't tell me that was why he was backing off (because he didn't really notice he was doing it) so I misunderstood and thought my paltry efforts were pushing him away! But we had a big talk and sorted it all out, and then we decided we would have 2 weeks or so apart so I could have some space to think, and then he ended up coming over more in those two weeks than he had beforehand

Also the accommodating thing - I didn't really get that for ages until something prompted a huge discussion on that. But I'll go into that another time, because we need to go out now :)

That site is terrific, ItsMe!

Hi, Puppy :) Yeah, we've been 'trained' to be mirrors for other people's aspirations, likes and dislikes. So, you're right, it's a matter of recognising that people's own opinions are just that - their own; they're entitled to them; it's not our job to try & make everyone happy by changing ourselves. After that comes the news that we have our own opinions, likes and dislikes, too! And, just like everybody else, we're entitled to them! Wow

Annie - I had a Narc boyfriend who was the biggest slob imaginable. I didn't realise he actually is a narcissist until recently, when I read an obsequious review of his work - written by himself!! Quite a few things fell into place then, I can tell you

Bertie - I'm still in the 'giving up' phase of feeling I have to accommodate others - even when they haven't shown any signs of wanting me to! I go as far as inventing what people might think/say/want

I'm getting there, though!! Off to read that blog.

Mm, interesting. XH certainly had some N-like characteristics, but I tend to think he learned them from FIL who almost certainly was one. I read that the sons of Ns often become N themselves whilst the daughters are more likely to develop BPD. XH is not in the least bit feminine, but he is kind of soft-hearted and passive (kind to children and small animals, sort of thing) so I'm not surprised he took the passive kind of disorder, as it were. He certainly seemed to have very low self-esteem for the most part, though again that could have been an act.

I suppose the untidy N believes that mess is ok provided it's his mess, and that it's someone else's job to tidy up.

"soft-hearted and passive, kind to children and small animals" exactly describes my father. Son of a dominating and controlling mother, who produced 3 children, 1 girl and 2 boys, who are now all suffering various degrees of abuse from their SOs. My sister and I, also with N mother and co-dependent dad, also took on the co-dependent traits.

Meanwhile, my stbxh and his sister are both angry and controlling narcs. I believe in their case it is their father who may have N qualities, and their mother who is passive and co-dependent. And my N mother also had an N father and passive mother. Her sister, however, was in an abusive marriage to a narc.

In my family, it therefore seems that you have an equal chance of becoming either the abuser or the abused, regardless of your own sex. With a tendency for narc mothers to produce co-dependent offspring, and narc fathers to produce narc offspring. But I don't think there is a neat and simple equation like that, really.

No, because then we'd know what to avoid, wouldn't we?

I've written off my stbxh as unable to see reason. But what can still get me is the loved non-N people in my life who don't understand: who see "domestics" as something private, where anything goes, where both parties are equally to blame. Those who think stbxh is repentant and lovelorn and despondant, and that I need to just "talk" to him to allow him "closure". Those who think I am out of order to have pressed charges.

There's not many of those in my life; I'm lucky. I can count them on the fingers of one hand. Most of my friends and family, colleagues and bosses, and professionals like the police and social workers, have been incredibly supportive. But the instinct is still strong in me to try and convince all people so that they won't see me as a "bad girl", and I find attitudes like those above so very frustrating and undermining.

I am at peace with the fact that people can come to their own opinions when presented with the facts. What frustrates me most is the incomprehension of stbxh's parents, who I do love dearly and who love me too. They are getting zero info from stbxh, and just don't understand what is going on. They are now of the view that stbxh is sorry, and reasonable, and that this can be talked through.

I had met them and told them about my decision to divorce soon after leaving stbxh, and they were very understanding. But they don't see his behaviour as abuse, and they have no idea of the harassment I have been receiving from stbxh since leaving him. And I really don't feel like telling them: it is clear that their role will be to support their son, and I don't need to "tattle" just to make myself feel better. But still I so wish they had all the facts, in the hopes that they would understand me...

I just need to accept that I can't get through to everyone. (v afraid that my lawyer and I won't be able to get through to the judge either, who is new to family law, and that really should concern me more. But I don't have an emotional link to the judge the way I do to stbxh's parents.)

I lurk often, post occasionally on here. I'm all shook up today because I saw DS's father on Sunday.

He has nothing to do with his 16-month-old son, yet publicly dotes on his 2 older children. (I say publicly, because in the brief time we spent together, he would just plonk them in front of a video for most of the time he had them. )

Now that he has a new girlfriend who's not "in the bag" yet, and has 2 kids of her own, he appears to be aiming for "best Daddy" prize, with her kids and his.

We saw them on the beach, all playing Happy Families. Luckily we were with a big group of friends too. I was so looking forward to relaxing, I've just found out we're being kicked out of the house and have to find somewhere else.....And then they were there.

I had to approach him. Just had to! It's difficult to get him away from the kids, because whenever he sees me he takes cover behind his 2 older kids, hoping I won't say anything in front of them.

I wanted to confront him about more of his lies- this time claiming he's moving away (to avoid the CSA- he also offered me £15 grand to "get the CSA to leave him alone", but funnily enough when I accepted the offer I heard no more!)

But he absolutely will not engage. Said he'd call the police if I didn't go away! I told him to go ahead and call them...he didn't, obviously.

Like Puppy, it drives me mad when people try and suggest I "just talk to him...", as if he's a reasonable person. He will not engage. It hurt me so badly that people in our community ended up believing him the good guy when he just pretty much abandoned me and our tiny baby without warning-basically just dropping us in the shit from a great height-I'm convinced on purpose to "punish" me for being troublesome.

And now I hear that he's seduced one of those people, given her the blarney, told her tall tales of the future- all while sleeping with his girlfriend at the same time!

Same girlfriend, all the while, bouncing round, flouncing and squawking at me and my friends like a seagull, lying, contradicting herself, lying some more, lying about past lies....Is it possible for 2 narcs to get together? Because they seem so similar. Both of them will say anything, anything, no matter how untrue, with blatant disregard for the consequences. Both of them seem utterly brazen, with no sense of shame whatsoever, and are extremely manipulative.

I'd never ever met anybody like him before...until I met her.

Every time we have one of these encounters I feel like I've been down a sewer. Why do I feel the need to always try and confront him? I just CANNOT accept that he can coolly be in the same space as his little boy- being the doting daddy to that little boy's half-brothers-whilst refusing to acknowledge him, justifying that to all his friends by spreading lies about what a bitch I am, and how I won't let him see his son.

How can he have no shame?

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. God.

Puppy: Sorry, that last post was meant in a way to be a response to yours, because I feel exactly the same way about people's reactions. Only I went off on one rather, didn't I?

Well, I think this kind of person is actually quite rare. Many people haven't come across this kind of behaviour before (I hadn't!). Also, many narcs/EAs/ whatevers can behave like perfectly reasonable people most of the time, so if we hadn't been in a relationship with one, we wouldn't even know how they were capable of behaving.

As my friend pointed out (after she had been dragged into a bruising but enlightening row with the girlfriend), society works on the assumption that most people are basically honest, are who they say they are, and do what they say they're going to do. Ish.

Sure, people lie, but the assumption is that this is a Very Bad Thing to be caught doing, and that if they get caught out they will be full of shame.

Narcs don't feel shame, it seems. They are able to profit from everybody's assumption of their basic honesty. They are also very clever at imitating sincerity, because they have found it a useful trick, and because they fell no shame in doing so. My own mum remarked on how plausible and sincere DS's father seems, even though she knew for a fact he was feeding her absolute lies at the time.

I found talking to the CSA very refreshing. One of their staff called me to tell me that DS's father had repeatedly denied being on DS's birth certificate (he is, of course, we registered the birth together), and the world-weary tone of that man's voice was such a tonic. It was so clear that he had effortlessly seen right through him!

"the assumption is that this is a Very Bad Thing to be caught doing, and that if they get caught out they will be full of shame."

...I think that's very well said, maledetta.

I also think it's that very same assumption that keeps us in relationships with abusers. So I have to understand the well-meaning people who think that I should "just talk to him". I was one of them until very recently, except that now I know that I'm through with talking to people who can't hear me.

But it's galling, yes. That's why I'm glad to have MN and therapy to vent to people who do get it.

And no need to apologise to me! I'll bet good money that you've already done more than enough of that in your relationship to your ex to last you a lifetime.

Oh, it was hardly even a relationship! It lasted a few weeks, he dumped me, but then convinced me to move in with him when I was heavily pregnant so he could "look after me". Or, in other words,take advantage of my physical vulnerability and treat me as badly as he could....Although it was terrible, my anger now is that he has broken all his promises to be there for DS, and that he's trying to weasel out of it by behaving appallingly and lying.

I do know that I got off quite lightly!

Amazing grace
thank you so much for doing all this research for us. This will keep me very busy tonight!

"I also think it's that very same assumption that keeps us in relationships with abusers. So I have to understand the well-meaning people who think that I should "just talk to him". I was one of them until very recently, except that now I know that I'm through with talking to people who can't hear me."

This is so true! It's definitely the assumption that they feel these things, shame, empathy, etc, that keeps you hanging on. You think that the reason they do hurtful things is because they don't realise that it's hurtful, rather than not caring. Of course they care... right?

I think it's a very human thing to do, in general, to assume everyone thinks and feels like you, deep down, and if they act otherwise it's either for show or because that's what they think they should be doing. It comes up in a number of situations. For example, political discussions. Advocates of capitalism assume that everyone is competitive and co-operative systems wouldn't work because they go against human nature. But I know this isn't true, because I am not competitive or selfish by nature. If anything I'm too much the other way and put other people first all the time. But for ages, I thought people were generally co-operative by nature and the only reason people acted competitively was because of necessity. It also shows in the common thing that if someone is untrustworthy, usually they will be suspicious of others - unreasonably jealous partners often turn out to be cheating themselves.

Something I've always wondered is do people with NPD know that others don't have it? Or do they assume everyone else thinks like them? I know they don't generally consider the feelings and thoughts of others as worth considering in the first place, but in predicting reactions, etc. Do they assume others will react as they would?

Hi Bertie,

Regarding your question, maybe for the NPDs it's their use of projection that, indeed, makes them believe that people think and feel the way they do? (ie. that we, their partners especially, are controlling, over-sensitive, don't listen to them, etc.)

But enough about them! I do find I still spend more time trying to wrap my mind around NPD traits, rather than just write them off and focus on my own recovery. Since this is the recovery thread, I have a question for you ladies: what, if any, physical symptoms do you have in the aftermath of leaving your abusive exes? How long did they take to resolve for you?

For me, I have this nervous tension in my limbs thighs and forearms especially as if I have just finished running a marathon and am jittery and weak with exhaustion, or as if I have just suffered a great fright and am in "flight" mode. Except that it's constant, night and day, and has been going on for 4 months now. I can't figure out if it's fear, exhaustion, or grief that is causing this.

I have also developed tinnitus in both my ears, which has lasted 6 months now (coinciding with the time my stbxh threatened to kill me), and although it has lessened it has not gone away. Had scans and check-up with the ENT, and there's nothing physically wrong with my ears.

And I've lost about 15 pounds. People keep telling me how "well" I look as a result. I don't think it's a sign of being well!

I seem to be using this thread as a journal at the moment. But why not? It helps to write things down.

I am feeling suicidal again. Last time was 2 months ago, and I asked my GP for anti-depressants then. Now I've run out of any additional coping mechanisms.

The pain of being me of living in a permanent state of guilt and self-hatred just doesn't seem worth it. I don't believe that 32 years of conditioning can be undone, just managed, if I ever learn the tools to do that, and really, is that good enough?

And I'm so lonely. Part of being a co-dependent with no self-esteem is needing external validation at all times. Now I've got to learn to live without it (since I've only had abusers fill that role for me), but there's not enough within me to sustain me in a stable way. Living alone just makes me more anxious and depressed, rather than teaching me to depend on my own self. Or maybe it is teaching me that, but then the process sure is slow and painful.

I look around at my family members, composed of abusers and lonely co-dependents either in or out of relationships, and it doesn't give me much hope. I wanted children, but I now think it may be a good thing if I never have any, given my family's shoddy track record: unfulfilled adults raising neglected children who themselves grow up to feel unfulfilled and fill the void with abusive relationships and their own neglected children, and so the cycle continues. But the thought of remaining single and childless all my life of doing the "right" thing and learning to be strong and fulfilled by my own self just fills me with despair. I so need other people, but am shit at friendship. I crave more intense bonds (partner, children), but clearly I am shit at more intense bonds too.

I have a counselling session tomorrow, so hopefully that will help patch over this feeling of wanting to die. I suspect it's a feeling that is going to continue to hit me over and over, though. It scares me that I actually have 3 plausible methods of killing myself in mind.

I don't need an ego-boost and people telling me it would be a waste to kill myself: I'm unlikely to actually attempt it. I would, however, love to hear how other people have learned to live with and manage their inner feelings of self-hatred.

Hi Puppy,I'm so sorry you are feeling sad and lonely today.Well done for posting,I think this thread can be a good journal,and of course others can listen,validate and offer support.

Firstly,I am glad you have posted about your suicidal feelings and ideas.PLEASE talk to someone in RL about this.I am so glad you have a counselling session tomorrow and I hope you will be able to talk about this there,too.

I too,have experienced these feelings - very intensely in the past,less so and less often now.I also used to carry a mental image in my head of what I might do. As I say,this happens less now.In my case,I am not prepared to put my dc through the pain and anger of their mother leaving them deliberately.However,when I had my first dd,I was very very down on myself.If I had had the insight into why I felt that way - exactly as you describe - I wonder if I would have ever had my dc. I am saying this because I don't want you to think you should avoid having children because of what you have experienced and how this makes you feel.

You are hugely insightful,this comes through clearly in your posts.That is vitally important as a parent,in order not to repeat the patterns.It is my sole aim as a mother to be as far as possible nothing like my own parents.This is what I tell myself.

That is not to say that I have "used" my children to make me better (I hope not)In fact,I cannot truly say I feel "fulfilled" by the bonds I have with my dc.Maybe I am afraid of or unable to bear that intensity - although,like you,I absolutely crave it - and feel very lonely.I am a single mum.I have 5 dc and have chosen two ,successive,emotionally distant husbands and then an abusive N partner.Not great role models fro my dc,and certainly no good for me.

I often post about that deep loneliness.I haven't nailed it yet.

Of course,I love my dc hugely and,as I say,I will always be here for them.But I still struggle with the loneliness.It is less intense these days ,but I still get difficult times and have never completely shaken off the guilt - I can feel guilty about anything if I'm in the wrong mind set.But I don't have the total self hatred that I used to.

You asked about strategies.Well,the first one for me was realising that I absolutely had to get through this for my dd when she was tiny.She is 15 now.I realised that for her to feel positive about herself as a woman,I would have to role model a healthy,proud woman.....it was very hard to learn how,and I am better at it now than I was at first,so dd4 who is 1 ought to get a good deal,and I hope dds 1,2 and 3 will be ok.Time will tell.

I have had a lot of therapy.And I work in Mental Health.I started presenting an outer image that was as near to how I wanted to be as I could get it.It was pretend at first,but has got easier over the years.I started by focussing on appearance,which meant I had to stop hurting myself (cutting) and try to be fit,healthy and to dress with care - all things that I found difficult back then.Within a few years,I became known as a tidy,smart woman,so it was easier to see myself this way.And I didn't want to let my standards slip.....

I realise this could be seen as superficial,but for me,it was about taking care of myself,so that dd would copy.My mother dresses appallingly and disregarded my appearance entirely except to criticize.
Sort of inner child nurturing by proxy - taking care of my dd had to be congruent with caring for myself.

I am concerned that I am going on too much now,but just want to add that when I notice my negative thoughts creeping back in,I usually also notice physical stuff,like too many late nights,too much alcohol,overeating,clothes getting tight,bad hair day etc..Maybe I notice "inside out",perhaps the cycle goes the other way round.But I do find that paying attention getting fresh air, exercise and pampering will gradually "put me back together".

Sometimes I think about disappearing for good,too.But since I know I will not act on this,I try to recognise those thoughts as a reminder that I do have a choice - I could choose to act,but I choose not too. As a child,I had no choices about what was done to me,as I suspect was the case for you.

We can make choices now.You deserve happiness.Pleas be gentle,kind and nurturing to yourself.You are younger than me - I am 43- you have loads of time to get to a calmer,more peaceful place in life. xx