NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Be strong Fluxy. You have made the best decision of your life, for you and your kids. We're here for you when you need it.

I'm a Scorpio and my ex N is an Aquarius. Sort of blows my theory out of the water!

Grace, I don't find your posts weird at all. I just see a woman who is trying to work her way through all the confusion caused by the toxic people in her life. Keep posting

Something else came to me last night while I was falling asleep. My ex N never paid me a compliment, ever, but he would have no problem complimenting himself. For instance, when ready to go out he would say to me "I look nice don't it? Don't I look smart?" If he had a haircut it would be the same. When we first met, all those years ago, I mentioned that he had a nice back, meaning it was smooth and hair free. He never forgot that and would often ask me if he still had a nice back. It's weird really because I thought he controlled me because he was insecure, he prevented me from going out, would check the mileage on the car when I did go out, but yet he was so full of himself, he loved himself greatly.

Going back to an earlier post about Ns idealizing/discarding their dcs, how do you deal with this?

Soon after DD was born, my ex discarded me and started idealizing her. It's almost funny, looking at his photos from that time, that they all show him and her, with me edited out in a kind of Stalinist purge. Anyway, I left when she was 18 months old and she's now nearly 3. He is very involved, which of course I encourage. But I think he's a damaged person, and I really worry whether he can be a healthy parent.

DD often tells me, in some distress, that he tells her that I'm bad and yucky and she felt she has to agree with him. I tell her not to worry, daddy says because he's angry (I've never told her that he's bad) etc.

This morning I asked him not to say things like that. He said: "I don't say negative things! She told me that you are trying to kill her!"

I just don't get it. I don't seriously think my nearly 3-year old DD accuses me of trying to kill her, unless heavily prompted.

What's going to happen? Will he damage her? Through excessive idealisation or by discarding her when she's old enough to challenge him? How do I minimize harm?

Its something i often worry about too Nickname. As mine have got older they have come away and they realise that he does not " see " them . He also says horrible things about me which really upsets them.

I too used to explain it as he is angry , doesnt mean it ect , now i state quite clearly that what he said or did wasnt ok , and that they have a right to be upset about it if they are. I suggest you do the same although obviously she is quite young. I think its important to acknowledge what theyre saying isnt ok.

Youll probably find that as she gets older she wants to go less and less.

Can I join in?

I've been lurking... never ever thought my XP was NPD but reading this thread has really made me think, maybe he is?

The comments about idealsing/discarding children have bought me up short.

nicknametaken I could have written your post at 10.24 almost word for word. I felt goosebumpy when reading it, if that doesn't sound too odd?

As soon as DS starts challenging his Dad..well I can only imagine the fallout. It really concerns me.

Dignified and janos, I'm glad to know I'm not alone. Well, not glad - sorry you're suffering this anxiety too! But other people's strategies are very interesting to me.

Dignified, can I ask at what age your dcs starting seeing through their father? I think you're absolutely right that I need to acknowledge when his behavious isn't right - I do tell her that I understand if she's feeling bad.

Janos, please join in! How old is your DS?

Nickname , initially the dcs adored him and saw me as the villain , it was awful. They would bitch about me when they saw him and he encouraged this , you can imagine. He also made up lies about me and they would come home angry and upset with me. There was lots of conversations and soliciters letters about this , he wouldnt stop.

I think mine was about 9 / 10 when they started to notice that he didnt listen when they talked , or ask anything about them ie school.

Eventually they said they didnt want to go anymore , and i stupidly insisted that they did, beleiving it to be important they maintained a relationship. I regret that very much now, because there is no relationship.

Nowadays he sees them rareley, their choice, and mainly through guilt and a sense of obligation. I know hes not bothered about them and only sees them as he doesnt want to be seen as that guy who doesnt see his kids, its really only concern for his image.

Around the time they said they didnt want to go i began to suspect that he was deliberateley behaving badly so they wouldnt go, his refusal to take on what the soliciter said confirmed this i think.

Its hard because we want to protect our kids , but these people are an image, they dont exist. I desperateley wanted to keep the image alive for them , but they saw anyway and went through the horrible same realisation that i did. I regret excusing his behaviour at the time. If a freind took my dc out for the day and called me names and upset them they would never go again, ever.

I'm afraid he may be damaging her already, NicknameTaken. A child's understanding of life is dominated by two parents who both love her & want the best for her. (That's why divorcing couples take so much trouble to assure their DCs they both love them just as much.)

If you're worried about this, and are not too pushed for cash, maybe you could get a one-off consultation with a child psychologist? To clarify your own thoughts, nothing else ... might be more reliable than opinions on the internet.

dignified, I'm so sorry you all went through that. Your insight matches Vaknin's advice: he says "tell the kids the truth" - age-appropriately, of course.

Meant to add , my soliciter said the name calling and horrible talk about me was classed as emotional abuse of the dcs and would be grounds to stop contact.

Stress to her that Daddy should not have said that, that isnt kind or ok and we dont talk about people like that.

Really, his attempt to poisen her against you is very damaging , what parent wants their child to have a poor opinion of the other ? I think most of us on this thread have probably done everything we can so our kids dont see what we see.

The more I read this series of threads the more I am convinced that XH isn't N as such, but that FIL almost certainly was and BIL very likely is. He did display a number of the control techniques and weird sayings, learned I think from FIL, but he didn't have that emptiness. He did have plenty of capacity for affection - for me, the DCs, our pets - and although he was sometimes a bit emotionally retarded, he'd never deliberately hurt something weaker than himself (unlike charming bastard FIL). The problem, well, shall we say one of the problems, came with me being strong and standing up for myself, and the DCs ditto as they got older. I think he did see me as equal or superior to himself, so he felt he had to manipulate me into place otherwise I'd leave. At least he always said he was afraid of losing me. I forgave, and gave into, a lot of controlling behaviour because I believed he was insecure. One day I started to wonder if that was it at all, or whether playing the victim was a deliberate technique. It's on my list of "Things I'd like to ask XH if there was any chance he'd tell the truth!".

On the other hand, I seemed to spend half the time on a pedestal and the other half of the time being a silly little girl who had to be told how to cross the road and wipe her bottom (in my 40s!), which was a bit confusing. Never knew from one day to the next whether I was a goddess or an idiot. And again, that could be his weird way of looking at me or it could be a way of keeping me on the back foot.

Recognise what you're saying about being responsible for everything. If I challenged him directly over whether he really believed I had control over the climate, political system, price of eggs etc, he would say of course he would never blame me for those things, and don't be silly. Yet I would have sworn the implication was that I should have done something about it.

Ah, strategic ailments... every year, come the autumn, he'd complain of horrible discomfort which would lead to his life being cut short, either because it was the onset of a fatal disease or because he wouldn't be able to stand it any more and would "go off a high place". I spent years being comforting and encouraging him to see the GP about it, but he never would. Eventually I just told him to hurry up and drop dead then, which made him laugh. After I'd declared my intention to divorce him he did go to the GP for a check-up and returned all full of himself, saying he was "fit as a fiddle" (several times in a row - grr). I said what did the doctor say about your aches and pains then? His response: "What aches and pains?" You know, the ones you complain about every time the weather gets cold. He didn't know what I was talking about.

One striking difference between him and your average N is that they tend to like everything fanatically neat. XH was totally the opposite: a complete hoarder, and if there wasn't enough worth hoarding, like we could still see the chairs and a bit of floor, he'd fill up the remaining space with empty boxes and plastic bags full of other plastic bags. He's trying to sell his house at the moment, but whenever the boys go over to help him clear up it's as bad as it ever was, and they cringe when he shows people round. Well he has to have squashed cardboard boxes on the floor, innit, otherwise the carpet will get muddy. (He was heard saying to one group a couple of weeks ago, would they come round the back way please, as he had nailed the front door up since the break-in. Way to sell your house!)

So, not an N then, but I think the product of an N upbringing - BPD almost certainly. And just as bloody impossible to live with without going a bit peculiar oneself.

ps Grace, I know exactly what you mean about the cat. You can empathise with it and not want it to feel distress. That's how you know you are not the crazy one. Although some might say that's how you know you are the crazy one, putting an animal's feelings before your own convenience, as if it really had feelings as we know them, it's not a human being y'know... But isn't that what makes civilisation possible - caring about people/creatures that aren't ourselves? OK, maybe we're all mad. But I think that makes you nice, personally.

Perhaps we should pity the people who can only see a cat (or a child, or a wife) as a bundle of behaviours that affect them, rather than a sentient creature who loves them and which they can love back. Pity them - but not live with them, because they can do a main lot of damage.

How are your dcs, dignified? Sad, resigned, at peace with it?

Grace, once-off consultation with child psychologist - not a bad idea. Cash is a bit tight right now, so I might hold off unless/until it the situation becomes more acute. As DD gets more verbal, I hope to get a clearer idea of what's happening. Right now, I don't know if he said negative things as a once-off, or every time he sees her, or something in between.

Nickname - thank you, my DS is 5.

Having looked again at one of your earlier posts, you mention a 'stalinist' purge of photos of you and DD after she was born - all photos were of your ex holding her.

This is exactly what happened to me. Tonnes of photos with XP and DS, very few of me. Also, my mum came up to see me the day after DS was born. XP kept grabbing DS off her and wouldn't let her hold him. Every time she tried to cuddle her grandson XP was there hovering.

I think XP sees DS as an extension of himself and not as a person in his own right, if that makes sense.

Despite all this he has never put DS' needs first.

Comments I have had from DS, off the top of my head that can only have come from his Dad are - "Daddy says you are trying to steal his money", "Daddy says he loves me more than you" and "You are not my real family".

I deal with these comments by saying that Daddy is being silly. DS does not seem to be upset by it..at the moment.

Mind you, XP has a new 'focus' as he has a wife (married within about 12-18 months of us splitting) and now baby son.

New baby was born approx 9 months after I got residence of DS..I have always wondered if this is a coincidence or not.

They generally stay away Nickname , but every now and then they apear to forget how he is and they,ll go again only to quickly remember ( N dipping ?)

They are often hurt and angry with him , i make sure they know that its really not about them. Nowadays they expect very little from him , if something important has happened they dont bother telling him, and they expect nothing emotionally as they know they wont get it.

my mum came up to see me the day after DS was born. XP kept grabbing DS off her and wouldn't let her hold him. Every time she tried to cuddle her grandson XP was there hovering.

Janos, are you me? Exactly the same thing happened with us. My poor parents.

And on photos...after my own camera stopped working, all photos of DD were on his camera. I begged him to send some to my parents, and he refused for ages, until he grudgingly printed off a few with his name printed all over them (using those photo machines in Boots where you can edit photos and add captions).

And my God, the war when my brothers sent a birthday card to DD that used my surname instead of his!

I totally get what you mean about the DC being an extension of him. Yes, yes.

Part of me is constantly alert to him grabbing DD and leaving the country (he's not from here). He'd finally have total control. At least one thing stopping him is that good old N certainty that he'll be president one day, so I don't think he'd change his name and hopefully would be traceable.

dignified, that's sad that your dcs have such low expectations, but it sounds like you've done a good job of emphasising that it's not their fault. Maybe that's the best we can hope for.

Nicknametaken - cards from my family just got dumped. Anything at all from my family was ignored. It was as if they didn't exist, like DS belonged to him and his family.

Also, according to him, my family were awful and dysfunctional. His family was wonderful and perfect and the model of how a family unit should behave - except that they weren't, of course, far from it.

He never liked anyone, even his so-called friends (well, people who thought they were his friends) and used to spend a lot of time critcising them.

He never, ever missed an opportunity to advance himself, even if it meant stamping all over somebody else (there were actually clues as to this trait of his early on in the relationship but I was too young and naive to pick up on it - just thought he was ambitious).

I had to go to court to get residence of DS (long, long story).

I could write an essay on all the hideous things he has done to me, and other people but it would take too long.

I actually think he does not have a conscience, that he is empty inside.

The comment you make about your ex believing he will be president made me smile too. XP has exactly the same mindset.

Isn't it sad that we are working on a basis of damage limitation?

However, what else can we do?

At the moment DS loves his Dad - thankfully his influence is limited as DS is with me most of the time. I worry about what will happen when DS gets older and starts answering back.

My concern is he will be rejected as 'defective' like I was (this was because I had severe PND - which apparently I wanted to get so I didn't have to look after DS).

Thx for your replies guys on my PP.

i'M Interested in this child issue as I have always been worried about my DS SEEing his Dad away from me and I'm sure when he's older he'll want overnights. However, there is weed smoked in his house so from what I understand on another thread they wouldnt let him.
The other day he told his 8 year old in front of me that I was crazy. I also know he's told his DS his mum is a liar for saying that (at the time) me and XP might want time together...? Why that would be a lie I dont know. But he does have a negative opinion of women and I'm worried. He is very subtle in his manipulations, a dodgy look, or other subtle comments, so i'm worried my DS wont pick up on it and believe him / think its normal.
He's only 14 months at the moment and I have No.2 on the way.

I had a lovely CAFCASS officer during my court escapades with the ex and she was really concerned about DD's emotional well being and was hesitant to recommend contact at all. She recognised that DD loves her dad and so I have to help her to recognise his unhealthy behaviour so she is hopefully unaffected by it, without talking ill of him which of course could result in me causing her emotional harm. She advised me to think of him as sick, as mentally ill when explaining to DD why he is how he is and does what he does. So this is what I do and it does help me to rationalize and remain dignified and not get angry or upset at some of the things he says to DD.

I'm very concerned about my dd, who is 12. Her father and I have worked very hard at co-parenting amicably. He was controlling but it didn't get too far before I got out, although I have since realised I really took to heart some of the things he said to undermine my confidence.
Before me he had a stormy relationship with his older dd's mother. A few years ago they had an argument about picking up/dropping their dd, who was about 13 at the time, and she took her mother's side. He has not spoken to older dd since then --about three years now. I spoke to him about it at the time but he said he couldn't bring himself to make up and she had to apologise first.
I am terrified that he might do the same thing to my dd when she gets big enough to disagree with him about anything big. They have already had one or two fallings-out after which he haas sulked and she has said, "Well, if he's going to be immature about it..." and has apologised for the sake of peace.

she has said, "Well, if he's going to be immature about it..." Sounds like you're doing a great job there, quiddity!

Thanks, Grace. I am often impressed by the way she has brought herself up! She has far more emotional intelligence than I had at her age.
It bothers me that at 12 she has had to learn to handle her father's moods, though. I wasn't around my father when I was growing up (not entirely his fault) and later discovered that even when he was physically present he was missing in action if I wanted understanding or support.
So it was really important to me that my dd should have a hands-on dad, which she does--as long as she doesn't step out of line. I suspect he idealises her and I worry about what may happen when he finds she's more than just his little angel.