NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Below is an incredible post from somebody on the outofthefog forum. It describes how my exH behaved to a tee. I thought it might be interesting for us to read. mummi this could be the post you are referring to - what you said made me search google and I found this:

*

"My ex N who I co-parent with definitely has a cycle which follows the same pattern each revolution. Each cycle has 6 different stages:-

Breakdown/transition to upturn cycle
1st quarter upturn
2nd quarter upturn
transition to downturn cycle
1st quarter downturn
2nd quarter downturn

The duration of each stage and the length of the whole cycle itself depends upon the variables involved but his cycles are around 5 years long. Because we share children, I am connected to these cycles though not by choice, this will be my third revolution but I do not intend for me or my children to go around a fourth time. I have included ?upsides? as part of the 1st half of the cycle because when you are forced to live this Npd misery then there has to be areas to work to your advantage or life just wouldn?t be worth living at all. The best hope is to get away from the Npd all together and for co-parents this can be the hardest thing to do because there has to be proof and a legal battle for this to come about.

When I first met my ex N at the end of 1996 he was in transition from breakdown into upturn. I wasn?t even that easy to hook but he pulled out all the stops to reel me in ? it was his big loving family that won me over, the same family he disconnected me from a few years later.

Ex N is currently entering the final downturn of his cycle, this is when he is at his worst. He hit his halfway mark of his cycle around a year and a half ago now (ever since his last D was born - babies are downturn triggers for him). I give it another 6 months to 1 year before he has another narcissistic breakdown. This signifies the end of a cycle. There follows a synopsis of my ex N's cycle patterns:-

Ending of a cycle - a cycle ends with him breaking down and here he plays the wounded victim, threatens suicide etc. He loses everything at this stage - spouse or gf/kids/home/friends/job, he becomes the most pathetic of creatures. Last breakdown 5 years ago, he admitted himself to a psyche unit for having intrusive thoughts about harming our children.

Upside of the breakdown - I can keep my kids away from him for a considerable time. This sounds cruel but seeing him suffer as a result of his actions helps me believe there is some justice.

Downside of the breakdown - he sucks enough people in to feel sorry for him and this gives him enough supply to make the transition into a new cycle. He uses anything he can - radical honesty about his past behaviours, remorse, general pathetic behaviour.

1st upturn part of cycle - Miraculously he always finds some NS supply from somewhere, usually through family support and a new victim who feels sorry for him. He builds himself up with a bit of strength, he goes through a remorseful stage here and victims buy into it, he is so convincing. To me he is like voldemort in the Harry Potter movies who has to slowly claim back all his evil power before he wreaks his vengeance.

Upside. I can generally get on with my life here and he is so busy trying to win everyone?s affections that when he does see the kids he is being nice to them or at worst playing ?wounded daddy?.

Downside. Even though I appreciate the time of reprieve, I still know what lies ahead.

2nd quarter of upturn - When enough of a false identity has been re-created, he sets about building a new life for himself. He will have a new job by this stage and have gotten himself sorted out with a decent place to live and have a new victim in the wings (usually someone who has been compassionate enough to support him through his breakdown and getting back on his feet). Now the whole reeling in process can start again and it is sickening to observe.

Upside of the 2nd part of upturn - This is when he is wooing and reeling in his new victim by playing 'the most amazing man/father on the planet'. Here he will be doing all the right things with the kids (except coughing up any financial support) - hands on dad, fun time dad. This phase can last a couple of years if we are lucky. He lets his mask slip only to me when I push for financial support or pick him up on the odd shaming tactic he has slipped up on with the kids, of course there are never any witnesses. We can manage during these times because for the most part he is busy trying to uphold his 'prince charming' persona.

Downside of 2nd part of upturn - it is nauseating to watch and I feel such compassion for the new victim who is completely hypnotised and bowled over by her sheer luck at having met this amazing man!. Even if I took the victim aside and showed them this story on the cycle of their charlatan beau, they would not believe me. The cycle is in motion and has to run it's course.

Transition to downturn half of cycle: This is when his mask slips more and more, he barks at the children and tries to control their behaviours - his manipulating and shaming tactics start peeping through the surface. By this point he will be unable to hide his addiction to porn, masturbation and fetish objects. His mask will also be slipping to a shell shocked new wife/live in partner.

Upside of transition: I begin to feel validated that the knowledge I have is the TRUTH, that I wasn't the one going mad or holding onto past grudges, that he had not matured or changed and never will.

Downside of transition: By this stage he will have been playing the game of great guy/father for around 3 years so the children and most others in his life believe him wholeheartedly. It is very painful to see my children coming back to me more and more with complaints about the father they still want to idolise. I begin to gear myself up for the worst part of his cycle.

1st quarter of downturn ? at this point there will have been an infidelity of some type, whether it is flirting at work with younger women, flirting by text or perhaps even physically. He will be unable to hide his porn addiction at this stage and day to day relations with wife or partner will become very strained. His control, bullying, shaming and manipulations of my daughters when they are visiting escalates and tears upon their return to me become the norm.

On the downturn there is NO UPSIDE ? life starts to become unbearable, the children become more and more upset by his erratic behaviours and shaming and their routines in and out of school start to suffer. My Cptsd starts to trigger badly and depression sets in. On this particular revolution I have witnessed the tiredness and disbelief on his shell shocked wife?s face as she tries to dive into denial from the reality that is her marriage, at this point she too becomes my rival and my children?s rival as she desperately clings to the fantasy that her marriage can be saved.

2nd quarter of downturn, we have just entered this stage ? his marriage will disintegrate and he will cling more and more to our children, especially if his wife leaves and takes the baby with her. Me and my children will become the targets for his rage and fury and he will project the blame for everything that is wrong with his life on to us. Eventually he will breakdown and perhaps end up in a psyche unit again. Then the whole sorry cycle will start all over again.

My job now is to get enough proof to a lawyer to get him out of our lives for good. I will not have my children anywhere near him at this part of his cycle, last time he broke down it was just intrusive thoughts he was having, I have no idea if that will ever progress and I am not prepared to take the risk. If I can prove that he is pathological and a danger to their wellbeing, then my lovely girls won?t have to endure another cycle with a Narcissistic father. I'm going to open the can of worms with the child psyche department and get all my evidence to a good family lawyer.

Understanding the cycle helps. I need to be at my strongest NOW!"

That is her full post. Really fascinating.

Thank you for posting, that was the lady I was referring to, facinating!

I often wonder though regarding the supply thing, do we not all need supply from others in the form of spending time together, to bounce idea's off, to help us, to share activities, to like and love us, what is the difference in supply and that human need for company, as I understand without strokes we wither up and die!

Mh and Ua...that is disturbingly familiar..

I will update..

Ds came home "on trial" the weekend before last,at his request.
He held it together very well and said he really didn't want to live with his dad.
He accepted having to return to xh's last Mon,as a consequence for his behaviour,and to give me some space.

Xh arrived to collect him on the Mon and was annoyed that he hadn't been invited to come with us to Bristol !!!!!
I did not bother to discuss anything and asked him to respect my need for peace as I was tired and unwell.

"this is not all about you" he said !!!
I asked him could he drop dd at school on his way and she asked him could he collect her that afternoon.He said he couldn't.

I then had a phone call to say he had told dd he would collect her and had arranged this with school.
My mobile does not work indoors.XH rarely uses his ,and frequently complains if I text him as he finds them too late.

I went to the gp's that afternoon and got a tx to say he would NOT be collecting her ,after all.It delivered at 4pm.I had to leave and rush to get dd.Very late.I rang xh and left a screaming,angry message on his voicemail.

He did not contact us.I emailed him to forward papers for the appeal hearing.He did not respond.

Ds returned on Friday.I asked had xh had the papers? He asked if I was "quite over my little neurotic outburst?"....

I'm afraid I attempted to explain in concrete ,simple terms exactly how difficult he had made things re school,dd etc..
He could not see it.
He insisted I was moaning and complaining to wind him up.
He then asked if he could come for lunch on Sunday "as it would be nice for us all to spend time together"
wtf
He took dd for the w.e.

Anyway,ds spoke to me for a long time,sitting in the garden.He said he had spent the week fixing a door with his dad.He quite enjoyed it.Said he realised that his dad wasn't going to change and he had to put up with him.He realised that he had to control his anger at home,as he really doesn't want to live with xh.He thought his dad was quite keen to have him asap....

He apologised loads .

This weekend,he has shown that he can do it.He lost it pretty soon after the others came in from school - said dd2 was making faces- but did leave the room,went down the garden and kicked a ball,then came in and said sorry - to dd2 and me...
Next day,he threw a book,but then went to his room and cried his eyes out.Came out later asking had he "blown his chances?"...

The appeal hearing was yesterday.He had to wait with the homestart lady,who he really likes.He was a bit cheeky,but did ok.

Was very quiet when told the outcome.....but xh was snivelling and apologising to him in the lobby of the chambers!!!!
DS shrugged him away and went off to my car.

Xh cried and wrung his hands saying "what do we do now?" (about school) then answered his phone and said he had to go,and left.....

The homestart lady was speechless.

I am at home with him today.He says he is determined not to grow up like his Dad.He is a bit sad and worried about school.I am shattered.AD's have wiped me out.
I have to start ringing the only other school we haven't tried yet.

He needs to go asap ,he is missing out on so much.I wish I had not taken him out of the old one,but don't want him back there.

SOOOOOOOO T I R E D ......

not surprised you are tired pm, it is great you have hs coming in once a week, what do you do with her normally, I was under the impression you should not leave children with hs volunteers during my hs training!

How are you going to plan getting some more sleep to gather your strength which you need right now!

When you posted about your outburst at exh over dd, why do you think that gave your exh the green light to ask for dinner on Sunday and no longer feel down?

No idea why..he just ignores anything that he can't deal with...and he is angry because he still believes he is ENTITLED to everything his children get from me....
He is impossible to communicate with.
I'm not going to bother any more.
Assume he's waiting for me to sort school out and let him know....

Yes,hs lady had to have ds and baby in the council chambers lobby,by agreement as not allowed to have them alone.Usually she chats to me and holds baby.With ds here,she has been playing board games with him - like a proper granny would ...we don't have one of those...

I really wish I knew how to get sleep.There is no one who can help with baby,and she is still bf;ing 4 hrly at night.

Did I read you right when you said the father of the older children was not a narc also?

if it acts like one and smells like one.....

I also assume the children matters are your problem to sort out from what you have said about him in the past.

Pm, you have been there before and I imagine your exh did not get up and break his night's sleep when the older one's were babies, if you are woken every four hours and your sleep is broken what do you think the answer may be? What time are you going to bed at, what are you doing when baby has the long day sleep?

Both my xh's - dd1 and dd2's dad and ds and dd3's dad - are similarly useless and disengaged.
But they aren't N's.I'm sure.XH2's mother may well be,though.
They are both emotionally immature and hopeless at basic life skills and social interaction.But xh1 is less irritating in a general sense.

Yeah,neither broke their sleep with any child!!
I can't get to bed before 10/11.I'm doing homework,music practice ,collecting from orchestra etc until 8.30/9.

I have to drive dd3 to school and collect her - or a walk which is an hour round - often walk but too tired now.This is when baby sleeps....

plus I have ds at home all day

Pm , im glad things seem to be better with ds. Without being negative , do watch out for empty sorrys though , and do insist on consequences despite how sorry or upset he is. Mine were a bit sneaky, saying sorry tearfully then a load of poor me , i cant help it sort of talk , then a big fat chat about whatever issue it was. And i fell for it , every time !

I know its not at all funny , but i cant help but smile when you describe you ex snivveling and hand wringing , he sounds just like mine and seems to think i am his substitute mummy.

Youve certainly got your hands full pm. Wuld you consider baby going to nursery or a childminder perhaps just one day a week to get some well earned rest ?

pm, thought you just had the baby and the two older one's at school, did not realise you had a fourth!!! I see, you do not have much time then! i understand about school runs and acivities, I ran around like that for the children and with friends and family for the first few years after ex left and before actually, last year i stopped it and took time out, that included after school activities, I did that for autumn and winter terms, after paying for autumn term things for the kids, and started things up again slowing in the spring, it was a good idea, we were left with gym membership and the odd pt session for the kids, so we swam and exercised as and when, I am glad i took the pressure off us all, it helped!

Thank you for that fascinating post, UA. This must be why professionals say the lines between Bipolar and NPD/BPD are blurred. I knew a very rich & famous (at the time) man - he was a fellow patient at the mental hospital. Diagnosed with bipolar, he was in a manic phase and had just launched an initiative that became hugely successful. He was weirdly charismatic. I followed his news for a couple of years - the enterprise floundered and then sank spectacularly. Apparently this was typical of his whole life: I didn't know about NPD then, but your post describes his cycles very well. No wonder his wife kept sending him to hospital!!

I'm glad DS is making an effort, pm. It's sad that your DCs are having to develop emotional maturity so young - and a wonderful credit to you that they are doing! The more external agents, like the Homestart lady, witness the weirdnesses of their fathers, the more validation you gain - and, hopefully, the easier it'll become for you to access the levels of help that you need.
Sending you a firm shoulder squeeze

Mh - I have 5!!! dd 14, dd 12, ds 9 , dd 8 and baby dd 6 months.

It's meeting the individual needs that's a challenge....

I had systems and routines with the 4 ,but baby has blown that away....

Plus,they are all vying for attention and probably anxious that they aren't too displaced.There's so much less of me to go round...

pm, FIVE!!! my goodness, no wonder you are tired, so are there two or three ex partners to the children, i thought it was an ex and the lastest ex was the father to the baby is that right or is there a third one?

Grace, that is interesting that you could follow someone else's progress to note their cycles which followed the pattern that was blogged!

I don't know why I need to write something as obvious as this, but I do. I was OK when I was narc-free. However, I never was for very long. Wherever I went, even up remote bloody mountains on the other side of the world, the Ns found me and I welcomed them. Then I'd start to get a bit weirdy; nervy; self-doubting, and another vulnerable cycle would begin. When I felt vulnerable, I'd run to my (dysfunctional) family. Throughout all of this time, those adventures, the cycles of my fortune - I never knew I was damaged. Most others didn't know it, either. I was functional.

The fact that I was living in some looking-glass world did become evident as people got to know me, of course. I guess the sane ones backed away gently, while the mad ones homed in on my weaknesses. Sure, this happens in everyone's life to an extent. It's the extent that's dysfunctional.

I was always quite successful, but never very successful. My grip on success was limp: I didn't feel I deserved it, and my Narc parasites only wanted to take it off me. Reading the papers these days, I see people - movers & shakers, magnates and millionaires - who were my friends, back when we were all full of potential. I know the reason I'm not on the business pages is my dysfunctionality. Now, this is starting to sound like sour grapes but that isn't the point! I suppose I'm trying to say: it's the fact that I have identified the problem, which makes me seem less able than I am. Yet, before I identified it, I seemed more able than I was. It's a pity I didn't identify it sooner, but better late than never.

Dreadful ramble, sorry! I'm going to post anyway - you never know who'll pick up on something worthwhile, and help us all along our journey ...

Grace, what industry were you in? I got confused when you and I think it was dignified were talking about past careers, were you working in the city? and I remember someone wrote somethings that may have gotten them into trouble, I remember the other was music, as we have been reminded of recently!

I don't think it is sour grapes, it is a case of you are not allowed to forget people from your past as other would who could do that by moving away, if you knew people who are reported in the papers then you can't escape them and their lives as easily!

Is there someone in particular that you have seen in the papers who has affected you today?

Yes, there was one today, mh. I knew the name & recognised the face, but had to rack my brains for a minute - then I remembered! I am PROUD to have been friends with so many winners, and take pleasure in their achievements. I'm battling with myself somewhat, as I know we all had equal capability. The difference between those of us, who fell off the ladder, and those who achieve great things even now is not a difference of ability. Nor is it a difference of birthright, as some had money & clout from birth but most had none, like me. It's a diversity in expectation & encouragement.

I can see, right now, my family dynamic affecting my nieces & nephews. They are all intelligent, beautiful & gifted. They carry within them the seeds of their own failure and I can see it, like mine. It's the family gift (along with the looks & brains: a poisoned chalice!) There's nothing I can do to save them - but, in the back of my mind, I hope my outpourings on the Web will reach them at some time when they need to hear it.

Thisis is a musician. I was a media business bod. I'm nurturing a side-trickle from my old career now; I make websites. Thisis is making music again

thanks for filling in Grace x

Well it is natural that you had those thoughts if you saw that in the news!

Do you think it was your family or you that you are angry at re your career not being as you had hoped?

Late night tonight , ive just read this entire thread and gone over a few others . Weve come quite a distance havent we.

I had to inform ex that I was not able to meet a court order for something to do with finances court. His responses, were giving away his annoyance at me, he did not ask how the children were, he wanted medical evidence as to the delay etc... it was all about him and me not giving him loosing a few days to respond, which I don't mind if he is late with, it won't make any difference at the end of the day for the submission of all information to the court. Yet he is angry, kind of feel sorry for him again, being such an angry person, why I can't stop feeling sorry for a narc I don't know... it is so confusing!

Hey

Hey everyone, how are you all? Thought I'd rejoin you all again. Haven't been here for a while as RL has been so time consuming.

I'm in a real precarious situation at the moment. My N knows that I've tried to end the marriage but isn't really having it.

I had a 'really nice' email from him this week saying all he wants is happy times and promising me nice things. It was charming and humourous in places - he can be very charming - this from a man who last week was screaming down the phone that he f'ing hated me, always has, I've ruined his life, I'm ruining his business, I'm dragging him down, I'm a lazy c**.

phew....

He has agreed to no contact for a while as that was what I requested but I just feel like he's building up to a suicide threat, I really do. Either that or another resignation threat - (he's threatened to resign 3 times recently).

I know there's never a good time to end your marriage but the timing couldn't be worse. It's our little girls birthday party next week. She's unaware of all this obviously. I physically can't be in the same room as him but if I try and keep him away it's just going to be nuclear in terms of fallout.

I don't know how to handle him he's mad, volatile, hysterical. Blames me for absolutely and utterly everything. Thank God he works away in the week and isn't here this weekend

If it was me I would not even look at him, pretend he was not there etc, and it seems you believe in god, go and read the bible for some strenght for peace for dd's birthday, it would be a shame if you could not control yourself to be in the same room for her sake!

If he kicks off at dd's birthday, try not to react, it will be the hardest thing you will ever do, give dd a hug and walk her into another room...

good luck x

I've read UM's thread...but really need to read it several times there is so much to take in. Still in the process of fitting it all together, I feel like I've opened a Pandora's Box, that I would have rather have not known even existed. I've always taken the approach that we learn from life's lessons, just as I will from this one..but I so wish that this was a lesson that I would never have had to learn...the problem now being that I've changed from a fairly trusting person..to seeing N's at every corner.

I have been following the thread to keep up, but it seems to have gone a little quite...how is everyone doing???

It does get to you like that, Antalya - don't worry, it wears off! When I first learned about Asperger's, I 'diagnosed' about a third of the people in the checkout queue Later on, as you say, I saw NPD in everybody everywhere (including myself). It's all very useful information, once you've satisfied your information needs and the shock's faded. They estimate about 10% of adults have NPD. Given that many Ns end up in influential positions - and that everyone in these threads is a bit of a Narc-magnet - it's bloody useful information. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

Several of us went through a very intense few weeks recently; it can take time to consolidate what we've learned, and get on with making the resultant changes. Everybody's process is unique, of course. I'm sure you'll find friendly ears here when you post ... I remember posting seven times consecutively on one of the earlier threads, though I thought I'd scared everybody away! But it was just a 'down' time for the regulars on that thread. And, as others pointed out, for every poster there are ten readers. So whatever you write is helping others, also struggling to come to terms with things :)

Hi all. I don't suppose I could ask you to take a quick look at my thread tonight, could I? It's this one (Thanks mummyhunnie for your contributions already :))

Sorry I don't have much more to add tonight. Am shattered after various uni related enrolments and inductions and sorting out things for DS' party tomorrow! Happy though :) If I hadn't have learned about NPD in the first place I'd never be going to uni this year. Itching to incorporate some study of NPD in my degree at some point as well!

Also on the ex front, if anyone has experience of going through mediation with an NPD ex I'd be interested to hear about it. Should be seeing a solicitor soon but the social worker (loong story) thinks they will want me to go down the mediation route first.

went to family, divorce and still finances court with ex, if any help to you, went to one mediation session, what do you need help with?