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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

860 replies

IseeGraceAhead · 03/09/2010 01:13

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 02/10/2010 23:05

I was just wondering if it was any help at all, because all I'm envisaging is (a) that he will lie through his teeth and appear mr. reasonable for the whole session and then revert to his ordinary self but in subtle ways so I can't complain about it afterwards, and (b) that he will hear what I am saying and insist on doing the opposite just to get back at me!

Currently I'm playing dumb to his lies and being oh so accepting of everything he says, because it's no skin off my nose if he doesn't want to see DS (sad for DS though :() but at the same time I just want something consistent for DS.

ItsGraceAgain · 02/10/2010 23:56

Mediation put the official seal on him shafting me, BB :( I'd been following the line of least resistance for some time, too, and by the time we got in front of the (female) mediator I hadn't got a leg to stand on. Everything we'd supposedly agreed - ie, I hadn't argued - was what he wanted. I tried to restate my actual terms, but he just whipped it around and the mediator followed his line. In the end, she did say she couldn't proceed until we'd produced full financial disclosure. He made out as if the only problem was my uselessness with paperwork and then, once we were outside, went into a rage saying he wasn't about to disclose his finances to anybody. He didn't, either. I walked away from it, losing about £350k in the process.

There should be protocols within mediation to allow for this - as couples counsellors aren't supposed to counsel both parties where there is abuse. Medaition is fairly new, though. I'd reccomend getting your own solicitor to specify EVERYTHING before you even go, and to advise the mediator that you are not a 'reasonable' couple. My mistake was trusting the procedures. Off to read your other thread now. Good luck!

Mummiehunnie · 02/10/2010 23:59

my ex did A

Unlikelyamazonian · 03/10/2010 00:12

grace I thought you didn't have children? bit confused.Did ex have dcs?

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 00:16

my ex and i mediated over children, you can over finances also!

ItsGraceAgain · 03/10/2010 00:25

Yep, it was about property. Thanks, MH!

BertieBotts · 03/10/2010 00:35

Argh, just deleted my whole message! Will come back to this tomorrow, it's too late, sorry.

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 02:19

bb sorry to hear that!

Grace asked me to post something here!

I was speaking to TA ed psy about an issue and she gave me the following advice...

she explained when people dont feel part of the solution to a problem they feel victimised and lash back out at you to victimise you to feel better about themselves... not sure if any of you are farmiliar with drama triange, so you move around in places...

Is that what you meant Grace?

I also gave an example, when I was attending mend programme with the children, they wrote title rules, they got us to verbally and physically to make up the rules as a group that we would adhere to. I noticed that this method was used lots, so instead of feeling dictated to you felt involved and came up with your own solutions, the programmed was devised by great ormond street psychologists... did you want me to elaborate further Grace?

ItsGraceAgain · 03/10/2010 02:42

Thank you, MH :)
I learned very similar stuff as part of my business training, but there's a huge difference in the circumstances. With a business "opponent", both parties are actually hoping for a successful negotiation. This technique worked to help the other person feel they were being duly respected - all the thrust was towards a win-win outcome, with everyone as happy as possible.

I don't know how to make this work in a more warlike situation, where the other party wants to win and you to lose; to beat you. So with a loathsome ex, or an enemy, can this technique really help you to gain common ground? Would it help, and how?

Sorry for all the questions! I'm going to bed now - hope to read you in the morning.

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 02:52

When dealing with ex in court, I don't tell him anything anymore until we are in the court room as normal techniques do not work with him he is so underhand, as you say just wants him to win me to loose.

An example of it working with a npd one...

I am still working on it and trying out various tacts... with narc mil instead of travelling a distance that would hurt my health for contact with lo's, as she wants me to run around after her, i did it on the phone, that game look how hard i am trying... she felt that she was part of the solution by me giving her ideas for her to find excuses and to reject, she does not feel the children are being kept from her and so feel like a victim (she does not want to see them really) she felt she had won something, she had me run around after her, I felt I had won something I did not have to travel, she did not feel like a victim and I did not feel like a victim... I suppose you could say it was manipulative etc, I treated her and me like we were both ok, I did not try to harm her! I was happy, she was happy!

mathanxiety · 03/10/2010 03:44

I did mediation about the custody and visitation. It was in the US so it might have been a different experience from mediation in the UK. The mediation was handled by the mediation section of the county court which adjudicated the divorce. We went through the courts for the financial end but for the reasons MH has outlined (giving the N a share in the negotiations and therefore a stake in the resulting agreement = pacifying him to some degree) about the mediation process (which involves writing the rules regarding conduct wrt the children) and also because I didn't want a random judge with attitudes I wouldn't be able to gauge deciding how I and the children would have to live our lives for the next whatever number of years.

The mediation process was so-so, but they took pains to keep men and women separate in the offices until any face to face meetings were necessary, released each party to the lift separately, and had metal detectors for everyone to walk through upon arrival.

We ended up with a huge document that crosses every T and dots every I imaginable. Every single minute of the DCs' lives is accounted for as far as where they will be on any given day and at any given time of every year until they are each 18. It was necessary not to have any time unaccounted for with my exH. There are different categories of time, with ordinary weekends, special days, school holidays and vacation times. The precedence of one over the other and the order thereof is spelled out. The birthday protocol is spelled out. The protocol for unusual circumstances like attending funerals or visiting dying relatives is spelled out. Contact methods and frequency of contact is detailed, badmouthing of the other parent or the other parent's kin is forbidden, arrangements for each school of the DCs to have contact information for each parent are detailed.

Really, there is no stone left unturned. I felt I needed this because exH tends to push until he meets a solid obstacle, and is a bully, plus he is a lawyer, and lawyers love a vacuum. ExH has threatened me with contempt of court proceedings three times so far over what he sees as infringements of the agreement, so even without much wiggle room, he still feels aggrieved. However, I feel the agreement we got through mediation has protected me and saved my sanity. Because I can interpret it just as well as he can and argue my case if needs be. I can also cover my ass and keep all his texts, etc., when he throws the book at me.

We did not gain common ground, that would have been too much to hope for, and dealing with him was like dealing with someone while the ground continuously heaved beneath my feet even at the best of times, but the mediator was business-like and a good referee and kept the process focused. You need someone very experienced and able to dominate the proceedings if you go to a mediator, no wimps or people easily cowed. I noticed the mediator's body language was very well suited to her role.

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 10:39

that sounds great, the mediation we had was together in a room, he had primed the mediator as he paid for and organised it... I wanted what you have, sounds great, what a shame my solicitor did not tell me about that sort of mediation if it is available...

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 11:01

Just going back to the Drama triangle...

lets look at as it is a Sunday biblically:

Jesus said turn the other cheek...

Lets look at Israel...

Muslims and Jews...

One did something to the other, the other retaliated, on and on it goes, one hurting the other, the other hurting back, moving around in the drama triangle from persecutor to victim, with people like the US as rescuer, it has not worked... as neither the jews or the muslims want to give it up...

Look at Norther Ireland, with the Pros and Caths... one would attack the other, the other retaliate, moving around the drama triangle as persecutor and victim, Mo Molam came in as rescuer, somehow both sides gave it up... on the whole the drama has now gone, they have on the whole given it up... turned the other cheek, I imagine that Mo got them both to contribute towards the solution hence the good friday peace agreement, as as the leaders were part of the solution they on the whole stuck to it...

ItsGraceAgain · 03/10/2010 14:00

Hmm, it comes back to correctly evaluating the other party's needds, doesn't it? With your MIL, mh (love what you did there!), you're giving her theopportunity to say No a thousand times, which is what she wants. I guess that's similar to what I do with a new client - I propose several ideas I know they'll criticise, so they gain some control of the creative process.

But with somebody aiming to kill you - literally or metaphorically - you can't make 'compensation' offers without sacrificing yourself! My mediation with X2 failed because I was trying for a win-win, where he needed me to lose. So he used my own approach against me. I wanted a mediator like Math's, too! I should have set firm, hard boundaries and made him fight for every inch, even the inches I was prepared to give. In everyday assertiveness terms, I was 'fogging' where 'broken record' would have been more appropriate. Game-wise, he was playing 'Try And Collect' (which, come to think of it, characterised his whole life!) but I was stuck in 'Look How Hard I'm Trying'. His was the harder game, so he won.

I was widely praised for holding the moral high ground. Sometimes that's a weakness: you can't put morals in the bank. If our mediation had been over childcare it might have turned out differently; I'd still have lost, though, thanks to my damn morals.

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 14:53

must look up try and collect...

I agree with you re killing you thing... I am still learning wtih ex, his mother it seems needed to feel she was not having the children kept from her, and needed a story to give people around her that did not make her look bad and she got what she needed, I needed the worry of her taking me to court off my back and to not have to travel the long distance...

I know what broken record is what is fogging?

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 14:58

Grace, yes yes yes, he plays try and collect... and his fav now I got you... he will do anything and bend anything to play now I got you, his most fav game ever! He was quite disappointed when we last went to court that I did not play it much with him, I bit mildly for it in one instance,but how he would have liked though, I quickly realised what he was doing. Playing now i got you with me a wooden leg and kick me player was a dream come true for him...

Mummiehunnie · 03/10/2010 15:17

The get my mind straight, can't believe this is happening to me thread! I know Grace has had a look! Have any of you got any advice for this lady, she has another thread going elsewhere in lone parents!

mathanxiety · 03/10/2010 17:59

I posted on her Can't Believe thread. She is in a terribly lonely and frightened place.

HitGirlGrownUp · 03/10/2010 19:20

I have name changed to post on here, although I am probably still quite recognisable, just don't want it to come up on a search of my name iyswim. I have posted many times about ex in the past but he is still very much in my life due to 50/50 shared parenting and there are definitely still issues although I think I am managing better than I used to.

We have two dc, one of whom is ASD. During the course of our marriage:

he was repeatedly unfaithful
abused alcohol and drugs, even bringing drugs into the family home. He would drink 5 - 10 cans of lager a night. He lost a couple of jobs through alcohol.
So verbally abusive I would feel as though I was going mad, so unreasonable, unfair accusations, threatening divorce if I ever wanted to go out alone, was fine as long as I was with one of his sisters, telling me I was mad, noone liked me because I was mad and SS would take our kids away or he would run off with them.
When our first child was born he would disappear for days at a time, I now know he was with prostitutes and other women quite often during those times.
Financial decisions were never taken together, he earned quite a large salary but for almost a year would take me shopping but not give me any actual money for myself, I threw him out in the end but let him back and one of the provisos was that he would give me an allowance each week. This allowance was a third of his overall wage, the rest he kept for himself and spent on himself. Although did pay for a few holidays, he often tells me that it was all the holidays that made him get into money difficulties in the end.
He never did a stroke around the house, not a thing. Even childcare was an issue, if I ever complained of being tired, then I was lazy. If I ever asked for time to myself, again I was lazy and on one occasion when a row escalated after me asking him to take the dc to the park to give me a break he threatened to "slit my throat". He would pull disgusted faces about milk stains on the table or orange peel not being put straight in the bin.
He did not support me in trying to re-train for a career when dc were older, told me I should have done all that before. I started college but was only able to attend for six weeks before his work hours changed and I had to stop.
Everything was my fault, absolutely everything, our dc having asd, my fault, a child having a tantrum, a woman once swore at me in a shop because my 1 year old ds in his buggy kicked her when we were standing in a queue and he blamed me.

He pawned my engagement and eternity rings and on three occasions I came back from weekends away to find he had pawned all our stuff to go out drinking or put a bet on that was going to sort everything out.
He freely admitted that he would often start on me because he was feeling bored and restless. Every disagreement would end in me being called terrible names and accused of the most awful motives for every single thing I ever did.
He was physically violent at least 10 times during the time we were together and would often roar and throw things around the house. Usually after an argument about HIS unreasonable behaviour. Couldn't stand to be thwarted in any way when it came to going out or drinking.

Still to this day though he tells me I am awful for breaking up the family, he is furious that he is not allowed to live with his children and be in his home and wonders why I should have the right to make that decision? The day I finally got rid of him he had attacked me in front of our ds for not lending him money when he had spent all his money from being paid before on a big weekend binge.

For years I felt like I was going mad because everything he said and did seemed designed on purpose to make me feel as unimportant and uncared for as possible, as though I was this useless, stupid, unattractive, worthless person who had no right whatsoever to be asking for respect, help, love. He really meant it too, not just a way of keeping me in line, he really looked down on me. In every way it is possible for a man to neglect and mistreat his wife I think he did to me. But he can't see it even now, this is just how marriages are and I should get over it for the sake of "the Family". I don't matter, "your peace of mind means fuck all to me" he said many times.

Does this sound like NPD or just a run of the mill abuser. He pays Child Support but says he would never ever pay me maintenance.

Sorry so long, I feel like I am at a point now where I can begin to come to terms with all he did to me, I don't react the way I used to. Today for example our ds had a huge (ASD) meltdown and ex just walked out half way through and left us all to it with his parting shot of "see what YOUR lazy parenting has brought us to?" then sent me a great long message about how we need to deal with ds (apart from stick around and support ds and see it throught that is!) and I didn't even bother to reply. He then rang and started yelling about it again and I just hung up. This is a very recent development, until very recently I would feel as though I was going mental and try to explain and justify and defend myself but somehow never get anywhere. I hope I can keep it up.

Again sorry so long but feels so good to get it all out. Believe it or not I actually protected my dc from most of this, although I know they picked up on some of it. I am glad that I found the courage to end it I only wish I had done it much sooner.

HitGirlGrownUp · 03/10/2010 19:21

And do you know what? I have just read that back and I still can't quite believe that it was me that all that happened to and still feel guilty for throwing him out and wondering if I caused it all.

ItsGraceAgain · 03/10/2010 19:39

God. I'm glad you wrote that down, HitGirl, though I bet you feel shocked on re-reading it. And a bit guilty, maybe, as if you were being disloyal?

You do need to stop him coming to your house. And reduce his contact from 50%. As you've just begun to stand up (and think for) yourself, that might look wildly unrealistic right now but hold the thought! Well done on seeing through the 'FOG' (Fear, Obligation & Guilt) that abusers use so effectively to control their targets. You've taken an important step towards freedom :)

If you've read this thread and the others, you'll know that many other posters have been through weirdly similar scenarios. Is there anything in particular you want us to tell you about, point you towards, or ask you, so as to help you get stronger?

silveryfox · 03/10/2010 19:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

HitGirlGrownUp · 03/10/2010 19:48

I suppose I just want to understand why he is like this? Did I make him this way? I was a bit demanding at the beginning and he always says that I set the scene for the relationship, I think that is why I put up with it for so long because I felt like I had brought it on myself. Do you think it is NPD? His sense of entitlement is bigger than the world iyswim. He honestly believes it is perfectly ok to borrow money of me (a single mum on benefits) to go out on the piss (him a pretty large wage earner) and leave me skint for 3 days until he gets paid and pays me back. I just don't get that thought process. He sulks and makes everything so uncomfortable till he gets his way, he constantly tries to make me responsible when things go wrong for him, train late? well if you would just let me drive your car. Ds has autistic meltdown? - your sloppy parenting HitGirl. He has even in the past tried to make me go halves with him on HIS days out with the dc if they ended up costing him a lot, when I wasn't even there. Money is his God by the way. It totally rules him.

I need to read the thread in full I think as I skimmed it and suddenly felt like bursting to get it all out.

Thanks for replying to me Smile.

Unlikelyamazonian · 03/10/2010 21:55

Hitgirl, I agree with Grace. If you are starting to stand up for yourself at last it will be a rough road but a rewarding one in the end.

50/50 parenting is not working is it. Can you go back and see your solicitor and tell him/her what is going on?

You need to have much less contact with your ex: reducing contact only to arrangements over the dc. You can insist they are by email only. Change your phone number and mobile number.

Do not lend him money, ever.

Is he paying maintenance/CS?

freedomfrom · 03/10/2010 22:10

'FOG' (Fear, Obligation & Guilt) hmmm think thats what I'm suffering from! Havent posted on here in a while as I have a lot going on at the moment.

But just wanted to ask, am I allowed to phone Womans aid helpline if I havent been the victim of domestic violence as its says thats what they are for....? I was meant to phone them tonight, after X told me today he was going to record me, then turned up with his son to see our DS after I said no as DS was asleep. I feel too scared to not let him in cus of what he'll say about me, how he'll twist things. And today was the 1st time he has denied out right saying something, (over text he denied asking to record me).
I think I'm too scared to phone them in case they laugh at me, or tell me I shouldnt be calling as its not 'bad enough'..... Sad