Archers thread #142: Kill Jill? Is Ambridge heading for a Tarantino-style bloodbath on Stir Up Sunday? Discuss The Archers here!

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that , or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Well, things have taken a turn for the better in the last few days! The SWs have re-discovered their form and the actors and directors have risen to the challenge. I won't say much more than that for fear of jinxing things. Over to you!

(Thanks to @JanglyBeads for the thread title idea!)

It's interesting that we're only getting the storyline from Ruth's side also - as in we hear Ruth talking to David about it, but we're only hearing Jill in the argument itself and second hand reporting from Leonard. Obviously I'm sympathetic to Ruth's side here but it does seem like unbalanced storytelling.

Total agree with all of that @Fink

I thought Jill was keeping her cards close to her chest, being unusually quiet but not giving out on anything. Leonard was surprised by her reaction but he is ridiculously understanding and diplomatic.

Jill was ridiculously over- infested in Ben’s relationship with Beth. She almost seemed to see Beth as a version of her younger self - a city girl marrying (because that’s what she seemed to expect and encourage) into a farming family. I never found this believable mainly because Ben is still so young - too young to be getting married off and settling down. Vince is also far too over-infested in his daughters’ lives - lending the money in the first place and then withdrawing it because things weren’t going the way he wanted (I actually knew a father like like this - who used his money to try and control his kids - his daughter moved to Australia to get away from him). The true upshot of this state of affairs and the real winner here is Ruth - who now seems entirely reasonable and has all the best lines (and the best delivery). Maybe it’s all about making Brookfield’s new matriarch a sympathetic character who listeners can love (something which felt like an uphill struggle until now).

I'm so glad it was David and not Ruth who had the plaintive 'but I thought we'd done a great job as parents' lament the other week (approximate words, not direct quote). Such a dizzying height of self delusion and unawareness would be difficult to overlook in someone who, I agree, is now being painted in a generally strong light.

‘You won’t understand this, Ruth, but land is important’ ohhhh feck off Jill!!! That was enraging.

All of the above.

Love the fact that David can challenge Jill when she criticises "his" plan to sell land but not when she treats his son and his wife badly and lectures Ruth on what it means to have a farm.

Ruth has always had a DH problem.

I'm also wondering if the cop out will be Jill is losing her faculties.

This is dementia, as we suggested a few days ago - the kind that gives you a personality change.

That's also why we've had the change in voice tone and generally sounding weaker, IMHO.

Of course you wouldn't "diagnose" from one thing forgotten but

A) of course Jill would have normally remembered anything about Brookfield land potentially being sold, and

B) there's a reason for every line written.

I wonder if it's dementia causing a lack of inhibition rather than a true personality change. Jill was always going to be horrified at them selling Hollowtree (I hadn't realised before last night that that was the area they were getting rid of) and it's in character for her to be against an abortion as previously discussed. Lots of this seems like loss of filter/inappropriate behaviour, which is unlike Jill who I've previously thought of as being quite measured and calm.

Maybe we're going to hear her unfettered thoughts on all sorts of things and people now. She isn't very pleasant in this mode, certainly. Poor Leonard last night. Agree with @Therapist that the quip about Ruth not understanding the value of the land (she's only been farming Brookfield for 40 years after all ) was particularly horrible.

It's been a cracking week though, even allowing for the teenagers at the hunt ball. BOOP for the SWs and actors.

I thought when Ruth said sorry to Leonard Jill would walk in and Ruth would say sorry to her too and I thought NOOOOOOO! dont do it Ruth but that didnt happen. When Jill said shes leaving I said see ya! I dont think shes got Dementia I just think shes been awkward and nasty and thinks David and Leonard will be all on her side. Bloody old Bat.

I agree with @Fink about Ruth's being delusional that they did a good job as parents. Remember the ridiculous scene where she discovered her caring side while Ben was having a breakdown: it sounded so false because we hadn't heard a smidgen of warmth from either parent till now. Are we meant to believe she loves her sons as much as she does gold-plated Pip, or are we meant to see her hypocrisy? If I were Ben her emotive caring voice would have made me feel even worse.

I don't think they are selling all of Hollowtree @Prestissimo, just some strip of land in that area of the farm.

If this does turn out to be a dementia storyline I'll be surprised because Jill is 92. At that age it would be the first explanation anyone would jump to for extreme or out-of-character behaviour, but it doesn't appear to have crossed David, Ruth, Leonard or trainee nurse Ben's mind. Surely we're not going to have them all racked with guilt for not realising?

But I think dementia in a close relative can be harder to spot, iyswim. Too subjective.

I don't think it's a dementia SL. Jill had been out and about a lot in the past week or so. Selling land in a hurry to pay off a relatively small loan is a ridiculous idea, so in that respect Jill is right. Selling it with planning permission and not at a difficult time to sell (economy and seasonal) would raise a lot more.

The obvious place for Jill to go to is Leonard's, but I think she'll go to LL, where Lizard will set her straight, I hope.

Ben's mistake was to impregnate a girl who didn't have a pro-lifer father with a shotgun.

David and Leonard are on her side, she is right. David has always taken Jill's side where she and Ruth rub up against each other and Jill has always favoured David.
Whilst her behaviour is particularly horrible at the moment its actually consistent with her past attitudes and treatment of people so it might be a dementia problem but its also not surprising she thinks its perfectly OK to behave this way.

True. My mother had always been difficult and unreasonable so when she gradually became more so it wasn't obvious that she had dementia for a while. It was physically attacking my Dad that made it obvious.

If anyone has a link to a recoding or transcript of Jill's reaction on hearing about Lizzie's abortion, I'd be interested.

although I’ve been on record saying how unrealistically healthy all the old folk are in Ambridge, I’d be disappointed if it’s another dementia storyline. There are plenty of other conditions that would also cause forgetfulness and loss of filters. Just normal old age does it too. I type this from my mums house where i stayed overnight because she’s not been quite right the past few days and the neighbours let me know she went round to see them in just her dressing down and not a lot else. Shes fine, just very old and her body and mind are worn out and she can’t be bothered getting dressed some days. Funnily enough I always associated her with Jill when I was growing up due to the domesticity and always cooking, and I’m similar in age to Lizzy.

Has there been a dementia storyline before?

Agree that it can take a while to spot dementia / Alzheimer’s, especially as many older people are embarrassed by the symptoms so hide them. My grandad would find himself confronted by gaps in his memory so would just make stuff up and assert it, so confidently that listeners would wonder if they were wrong. It was other symptoms, not the memory, that made it clear this wasn’t just forgetfulness - refusing to wash, becoming aggressive with my grandma when she tried to help him wash. It was a relief to him as much as the rest of us when he admitted he had Alzheimer’s: he could stop pretending.

I think people often think dementia / Alzheimer’s are just forgetfulness; I didn’t realise until they took my grandparents that that’s just one of the symptoms.

Here’s the full story of Jack Woolley (Peggy’s second husband) and his decline into dementia.

www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thearchers/entries/949bc08e-bf04-38c5-90d0-b501e4015a59

amp.theguardian.com/society/2008/oct/29/archers-dementia

Yes, there was a dementia storyline around Jack Woolley.

I do hope David has the sense to tell his mother that the need to sell the land does not arise from anything Ben ha done, but from their stupidity in failing to read through the loan agreement properly.

Good point @LaGioconda. They knew perfectly well what kind of a man they were dealing with!

Yes there are other conditions but dementia increasingly common?

Can’t remember why I was searching now, I think I was trying to find a link to show DH (who’s not really an Archers fan but puts up with me) - anyway, I came across a summary of the episode a fair while back where it was Jill's birthday and she was having cake and a lovely tea-party.

She threw a massive strop because Pip mentioned in passing that Toby (all pre-Fairchild, he was still her 'boyfriend' then) was going to drop in. Totally out of the blue, everyone's favourite purveyor of flapjacks and chutney flew into a towering rage and yelled that it was HER party, SHE chose who could come, and if Pip didn't like it, she could SPIN on it (I paraphrase slightly here). Everyone was stunned.

I remembered that ep as soon as I read about it and tbh the current situation seems like an extension of that mindset, albeit very extreme. I do agree that Jill's always been happy as long as things go her way. But if they don't…..

It is of course totally feasible, despite the above, that they might be lining up a dementia SL for her ☹️

But wasn't that back when everyone hates Toby - oh and Jill esp had issues with the Fairbrethren bc of the Grace memories etc?

That could have been an early sign? Hmm five years ago maybe....

So perhaps her whole Ben'n'Beth "shipping" was part of it. Extreme views either way about The Family?

It could also just be inconsistent writing/editing of storyline scripts too…