Archers thread #142: Kill Jill? Is Ambridge heading for a Tarantino-style bloodbath on Stir Up Sunday? Discuss The Archers here!

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that , or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Well, things have taken a turn for the better in the last few days! The SWs have re-discovered their form and the actors and directors have risen to the challenge. I won't say much more than that for fear of jinxing things. Over to you!

(Thanks to @JanglyBeads for the thread title idea!)

Oh I like that.

C8H10N4O2
She wasn't careless she had a failure of contraception.

That depends on the definition of "a failure of contraception" being "we didn't use any". That was what Chelsea told Tracy had happened: "we forgot to use a condom".

Dates back to 1900 or thenabouts, so not all that ancient but pre-Halloween tat.

I think for Chelsea there’s a sense of relief. She’s no longer pregnant and she can now get on with life. Ben has lost his girlfriend, is estranged from his gran who has moved out of the family home and his family are having to sell land to the tune of £40,000. He’s not going to be a father, but his life has not gone back to normal. This has been more life changing for him than for Chelsea (without in any way wishing to downplay what Chelsea has gone through).

The sad thing is that while Chelsea obviously had every right to tell Ben she was pregnant and he was the father, by doing so she gained absolutely nothing (as it turned out) but suffered a serious loss of privacy, because she seems not only to have destroyed Ben's stability but also made herself a local scandal through his inability not to talk about it, but her pregnancy was used for an attack on him.

Also, had she not said anything to Ben (unless and until she had decided to keep the child) he would still be with his girlfriend, would not have fallen out with Jill, would not have caused Vince's public attack on him and incidentally on Chelsea, and would not now be having this breakdown.

It's unfortunate that she had this unintended effect; she really couldn't have caused him more harm if she had actively set out to. And I am certain that she didn't mean him any harm at all.

I'm not sure we can say Ben never would have had this breakdown though. Maybe it just needed a trigger.

Well said @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I’m another hoping for clarity on Joy’s backstory. I loved that episode:

I've always liked Joy.

I want her and Mick to perform "Islands In The Stream" à la Nessa and Bryn at the Massed Choirs of Ambridge Christmas Spectacular (conducted by Little Gareth Malone)

Joy and Ben were both written and acted superbly. I found the whole episode highly realistic and also so emotional. To be pouring all of his distress into this fear of losing Bess was a very clever and plausible way to emphasise not just how much Ben had lost, but also how his distress centred around letting people down.

I’ve always liked Joy and I hope we hear more about her past now.

There obviously was a suggestion of her having the baby, otherwise she wouldn't have spent so long saying she didn't know what she wanted to do and talking to Tracy about her potential as a parent.

C8H10N4O2
She wasn't careless she had a failure of contraception.

How is faiing to use contraception a failure of contraception?

The MAP failed.

I meant there was never any suggestion of them coparenting @Suffrajitsu. No talk along the lines of "that's what Pip and Toby and it hasn't been so bad how might that work for us". Ben, quite reasonably, said it was Chelsea's decision and she then went off and prevaricated (again entirely her prerogative). I think what this storyline quite brilliantly illustrates is that we might worry about our daughters getting pregnant, but at least in that case we will be on hand to counsel and advise, in fact it is our sons that we should be worrying about. This only really occurred to me when my son got to an age where he was sleeping with his girlfriend and I absolutely drummed this into his head even more forcefully than I had with his sister - no matter what she says, you take the precautions. Never take a risk - she might be the one to get pregnant, but you will have no choice in what happens and it could be life changing. This obviously goes double for a ONS. To be honest, you'd think Ben of all people (training to be a nurse, living on a farm and with a sister who got pregnant by accident) would have known this. To be quite clear, I sympathise with both of them, but quite rightly Chelsea has always been in control when it came to making a decision about what to do and I think this lack of control is what has caused Ben's life to spin out of control.

Yes this - whilst Ben, as the man, was able to give it no thought the next day Chelsea had the sense to think and go and get MAP which is still classified as a method of contraception.

She told Ben because she felt obliged to - this is really common.

We will have to disagree on this one.

I do not see why the woman should have to "sit and reflect on her behaviour" any more than men do. It smacks of finger wagging and village gossiping and old tropes about girls that "get themselves pregnant to trap men".

She has already borne the load of an unwanted pregnancy and dealing with it when barely an adult. I think she has dealt with enough. It is not her fault that Ben threw Beth out or that the Dopeys went into business without reading a contract.

I agree with Caffeine

I still dislike the concept of a young woman’s unwanted pregnancy being the trigger for a man’s mental health storyline, but I have to admit Fridays episode was well done. David’s reaction was a very realistic depiction of someone who has never had to deal with a loved one having a mental health episode. Joy was magnificent and I agree this looks like a clue to the mystery of Rochelle.

Comparing the situations of Chelsea and Ben - I think Chelsea was depicted as having her crisis before the abortion, through her paralysis and inability to make a decision. Once it was over, she was released to resume her life, and she had that conversation saying how she was determined to make something of her life and was going to focus on her college course.

I am interested to see how the realities of current mental health services are depicted. I suspect either it will be provided through the student services (as signposted by that conversation with his tutor) or maybe Lizzie will feel guilty for persuading the Dopeys to accept Vinces money and will be coughing up for private care (remembering her own depression a couple of years ago).

The MAP not being able to prevent conception during a few days days every month (and not in fact being needed during most of the rest of them) is not a failure; it is not designed in a way which makes it possible for it to do so. It doesn't kill nor make infertile either sperm or ovum.

What the MAP does is prevent ovulation until after the sperm from an occasion has died; it can't retrospectively prevent ovulation from having already happened.

Chelsea must have taken the MAP shortly after she had already ovulated, which is about as much use as the man putting on a condom when they've already had sex.

She wasn't to know that though. I expect a lot of contraceptive failure is due to it not being used properly.

She couldn't remember when she had last had her period when asked, so it's quite likely that she took it at a time in her cycle when it wasn't likely to delay ovulation. The MAP hadn't failed.

It was a brilliant episode. I have always liked Joy, and I love her a bit more now. Joy was right that this incident did at least alert Ben's family to his need for help.

I am glad that Chelsea is being depicted as focusing on the future. I hope that in twenty years she will have a chain of salons, a loving and supportive husband and two children who have the perfect combination of Brad's academic abilities, the whole family's kindness and empathy and Chelsea's people skills. I hope that Ben gets all the help he needs to recover and manage his condition long term. He too should marry happily one day, have a great career as a nurse and train animals as a hobby.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime Thanks for that explanation of how the MAP works. Since my reproductive years are 20 years behind me, I’d never given it any thought.

We will have to disagree on this one

Suits me @C8H10N4O2 as I'm getting tired of you trying to make this a feminist issue by putting words into my mouth.

So is it better for a woman who finds herself unexpectedly pregnant not to tell the father, if she's not going going to give him any say in what happens next?

@JanglyBeads , yes. Under no circumstances should you risk upsetting the man who upduffed you, or, god forbid, expect any CM or co-parenting. You should either slip away discreetly for a termination, or rely on your own resources to bring up the child.