💰 Archers thread #121: Brookfield digs for treasure, Alice & Philip try to bury the truth. Dish the dirt here if you dig The Archers. PS Send nudes.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you long to hear Pip again, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3853783--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-5-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LillianGish and @PersephonePromotesEquanimity for the title suggestions.

Current events: as @Bailey0703 has astutely spotted, it's Anti-Slavery Day tomorrow - could this herald the beginning of the end of the horses storyline? I do hope so. Horrible stuff, but what a blow for Kirsty. They're laying on the dramatic irony with trowel at the moment.

What do we think will happen to Alice and Chris? I can't see this pregnancy going to term and ending well. I don't think the marriage will survive either, giving Brian a chance to revisit his classic line about having to treat this as Alice's starter marriage.

Will Elizabeth end up on a date with Vince Casey? That would put the cat among the pigeons at Lower Loxley.

Over to you ...

He knew that he was not welcome to anyone but the woman he is hoping will become his next bit of fluff. He set it up that way.

I'm afraid "making the examiner welcome to afternoon tea" is a completely different thing from "not actually being rude to someone who is not welcome".

They were not rude, except in the matter of having nothing in particular to say to him, until he started to attack them.

And where was his actual hostess? Either she was completely silent (such good manners, right?) or she'd gone off somewhere (which really is bad manners.)

The whole thing was deplorable, but I refuse to blame the people who were ambushed and attacked.

Lily started it by interfering and bad-mouthing VC, based afaik largely on hearsay. I think his tactics were unusual, but I can't say I blame him for taking the bull by the horns.

I'm totally reserving judgement on VC at the moment - well, after what the SWs did to Philip moss there's no way of knowing. (Im sure it was discussed at the time but was there any hint in the past that he wasn't a genuinely good guy?)

I think she invited him specifically so they could ask him questions and he could answer them. The twins behaved appallingly in my opinion and what Vince said was spot on.

And where was his actual hostess? Either she was completely silent (such good manners, right?) or she'd gone off somewhere (which really is bad manners.)

I would need to check the handbook to be sure but I think that it’s ok to leave a guest with family members if you need to absent yourself momentarily eg to freshen up the teapot. It is just an error (for which you would fail the badge) if you leave the guest alone. So Lizzie was fine to leave VC to be entertained by the twins from a manners point of view...

I can't stand Pip.
I tried imagining if I'd feel he same if she was male, and I would.
She is so unpleasant towards her brothers.

They were astoundingly rude to Vince. Lily had embarrassed her mother in public the day before by saying something obnoxious about Vince in his hearing and probably in the hearing of others. They are both overstepping the mark by trying to restrict their mother's choices in the name of 'only thinking about her' and 'wanting to protect her' or whatever they said. The truth is, they don't like the choice she's made and they want to put her off Vince for their own selfish and snobbish reasons.

I don't take to Vince but I thought he outmanoeuvred them at every turn and I was cheering him on. I almost want him to get involved with Elizabeth now so I can hear the reaction of the entire Archer clan. The only one I can see coping with it is Jill.

I don't think Vince and Lizzy will become an item, but I can see them doing business together.

Perhaps they'll set up a reformatory school for spoiled and entitled heirs. I can see the brochure now.

@Darker

I don't think Vince and Lizzy will become an item, but I can see them doing business together.

Perhaps they'll set up a reformatory school for spoiled and entitled heirs. I can see the brochure now.

They could set up LL as a teen bootcamp, with iron rations, dawn hikes up Lakey Hill and camping in the grounds under tarps cooking their own foraged meals over campfires, all the while charging parents a fortune. I remember seeing a documentary about camps in the American desert and wondering what kind of parent would send their child there, but acquaintances in the US have done just that to an only very marginally wayward teen so maybe its not that uncommon. I think Freddie and Lily are a lost cause.

Oh I think you all missed what this episode was really about: Vince Cassy has an estranged daughter called Bethan. Estranged because he didn't approve of her relationship with an "unsuitable man" I agree - and came on here to say the same. However I don't think the unsuitable man will turn out to be CMR - that would be a step too far and I don't think he needs to for this to be an excellent plot device. The point is that Elizabeth is finding some important common points with Vince - they both had the same problem and they both dealt with it in different ways. Maybe Elizabeth will end up helping Vince mend his relationship with his daughter and Vince will spell out some home truths to CMR (can you imagine how he would have reacted to CMR as artist or his insistence on the three speed kettle!) Finally we could have something character led - a bit like Jazzer and Jim - except I don't think Elizabeth and Vince are really so far apart. They are both in business and struggling to bring up older children alone. Vince seems to make Elizabeth laugh and Frilly's objections seem to be having the effect that Vince's objections had on his daughter (objections that Elizabeth held back from expressing to avoid being estranged from Lily). I think Elizabeth's parting words that she and Vince are just friends suggests they will definitely become more and I really hope so. This would be a much more interesting pairing with far more possibilities than anyone else mooted so far. As I think I've already said, I think they are more like the new Piggoi and Jick - Piggoi always seemed more refined than Jick because of Jick's Brummie accent, but really she came from humble stock. A bit like Elizabeth - she lives in a stately pile through marriage, but she's just a farmer's daughter underneath (albeit an Archer).

I was thinking

• fruit picking (shagging an authentic picker optional)
• being in one of Lynda’s plays (bit part)
• being a LL tour guide for a day with Berts poetry
• an afternoon having tea and cooking an evening meal with Bert Horrobin
• morning pig duties with Rex
• a night out with Jim

The daughter is Beth not Bethan.

I thought I heard Bethan, but I'll have another listen to check. Thanks for pointing that out.

Jack moved to Ambridge in 1962, and Peggy got together with him in 1990. She may possibly have known him slightly better than Elizabeth knows Vince.

(It was indeed Beth, MUM. Thanks.)

I'd have picked up on Bethan as it's a name that was hugely popular in my age group.

And also very nearly the name Vicky chose for her child.

Yes. 2 Beths.

I know what I think of someone who goes into someone else's house where they know perfectly well they are not welcome and takes it upon themselves to talk about that person having been in prison. It doesn't endear the intruder to me much, put it that way. I certainly don't like them for it! Good grief.

When someone is invited into another person's house and encounters her two young adult children being gratuitously rude to him, I think he's perfectly entitled to point out the flaw in their delusions of superiority.

Pip seems to be really jealous of her brothers, doesn't she? She can't talk about or to either of them without bitching. It's all pretty odd given that she's the golden child and heir of Brookfield.

Yes, and it seems to be so at odds with the farming families I know, where it's usually (but not always) the eldest son who is encouraged to go into farming.

The parenting is odd that the children weren't encouraged to work as a team but instead PFB and spares.

The dynamic between Pip &Joshnben seems so different between other siblings - even Ed & Will.

I don't think you can blame the twins' low opinion of Vince on snobbery alone. In earlier storylines about the abattoir he was definitely portrayed as ruthless and nasty. And when he was visiting Brookfield he made some comment about, oh your auntie owns Lower Loxley does she? And then he pops up by coincidence when she's been stood up. He's set it up.

I think the storyline is going to be Elizabeth continuing to date him just because the twins and David are so horrified, to make a point. It will be amusing when David finds out! But will she live to regret it?

MoonJelly
When someone is invited into another person's house and encounters her two young adult children being gratuitously rude to him, I think he's perfectly entitled to point out the flaw in their delusions of superiority.

If that had been what had happened, Vince's behaviour might have been forgivable. But it wasn't. Elizabeth set the meeting up to "take her revenge" (BBC one-liner, not my phrase) for Lily having "gone too far" the day before, and Vince went into it in order to teach them by action as he had advocated to Elizabeth earlier. He intended from the moment he agreed to ambush them that he was going to be unpleasant to them: if he had intended to be pleasant, he'd have made sure they had more than no warning at all of his coming for tea.

He is not the victim in this; they are.

Again? Seriously?

Just hurried someone off the phone so I could listen to ...

Beyond ridiculous now.

Yes, and it seems to be so at odds with the farming families I know, where it's usually (but not always) the eldest son who is encouraged to go into farming.

A bit depressing that's still the norm in the 21st century.

As to Philip: (Im sure it was discussed at the time but was there any hint in the past that he wasn't a genuinely good guy?)

I didn't like him from the start pretty much. They way he inserted himself into Alistair and Shula's marriage/divorce. He was taking confidences from both sides.
Then Kirsty wasn't sure she really wanted to move in with him but both Roy and Helen pushed her into it.

And we should have spotted that he could undercut the Grundies on price. And Gavin's racism when him and Kirsty took Gavin and Shelly (?) out to an Indian restaurant. I'd think twice if my new partner had a racist/snobbish son, I'd want to know where he'd got the attitude from and why my partner wasn't having words.

Jack moved to Ambridge in 1962, and Peggy got together with him in 1990. She may possibly have known him slightly better than Elizabeth knows Vince I was waiting for you to pop up Askingquestions - I can’t really remember the details (but I knew you would) - I think it’s the Brummie accent that’s making me think of them. Can you tell me if Vince is a widower or is he divorced? If the former I’d say the chances of them becoming an item are high, if the latter less so. I am enjoying the dynamic and I think that it’s interesting and realistic that Elizabeth’s (and our) initial assessment of Vince are giving way to something more nuanced. Personally I can’t wait for David to find out - I think his reaction is likely to drive Elizabeth further into Vince’s arms.