Landlady question re:cleanliness, is this fair?

[Vargas]

A quick rundown:

2 bed flat was professionally cleaned 3.5 years ago, absolutely immaculate. Inventory done.
Lead tenant lived in flat for 3.5 years, with 3 different sharers.
He's moving out and last sharer (6 months) is staying with new flatmate, so the flat is still furnished/food in cupboards etc...
Lead tenant and I decided to start a brand new tenancy, return old deposit, start new deposit etc... as if there are brand new tenants.
The tenants claim to have 'had the flat cleaned'.
BUT having gone round yesterday, the flat is not clean enough for 'new tenants'. Oven filthy, hob filthy, cobwebs, dust on architraves, extractor full of dust, washing machine drawer skanky etc... but there's no damage and tenant has been good, always paid on time, let in workmen, etc...

So DH thinks we should take off £200+ from deposit for cleaning as the 'baseline cleanliness' (his words :-)) is not good enough, and we're having new inventory done tomorrow. I'm inclined to agree, but what do other landladies/tenants think? Does this seem fair?

Take photos as evidence , as it your word against theirs .

No.

What relevance does it have that the flat was deep cleaned over 3 YEARS ago??

You would have to get it professionally cleaned again anyway for the new tenants.

The old tenants should also have left ut in the state that they moved in cleanliness wise.

I would offer them to ensure they have the cleanliness brought up to the appropriate cleanliness for a check out by themselves or a cleaner at their expense or the deduction whichever they would prefer.

You can only take money off deposit if you have proof you have paid out that money to clean/repair flat so are you intending to send a cleaner in?

Luckily the law prevents you from taking arbitrary amounts from people’s deposits

No!
You need to allow for basic wear & tear

This is fucking mad

Why should people already living in the flat do an end of tenancy clean? They are obviously happy with how it looks.

You can do an inventory with a bit of dust and cobwebs you know.

This is exactly why people hate landlords.

I wouldn't do this, no.

I'm a bit confused but it sounds like there are not actually any new tenants moving in, just new tenancy agreements for people who already live there? In which case no, you cannot charge them for cleaning.

If you were re advertising it to new tenants I think you would have a point. But that's not what is happening - it's just a change in the lead tenant who presumably has not asked for a deep clean to be undertaken at the start of the 'new' tenancy. So you are not actually going to use the £200 to clean the property. If I was the ex tenant I would think you were mean and spiteful.

I'm a landlord - I wouldn't do this. If I was worried about something actually getting damaged, like the cooker or the extractor, I'd mention it and ask them to sort it out. Otherwise if I was happy with them as tenants I'd leave them alone to live their lives.

What does the tenancy agreement (the old one) say about how the property should be left?
The problem is with existing 'sharers' still there, your tenant who has left can say its been cleaned but made dirty again by those that are still there, therefore not his responsibility.
You need to give them the opportunity to have it cleaned to a reasonable standard and wouldn't be able to deduct from the lead tenants deposit.

So if I am understanding you correctly- the issue is you now have an inventory that says “clean!”, as the baseline to be returned to. And you will shortly have and inventory that says “bit grubby” as the baseline. However, you do not have a void period, or a finders fee to pay an estate agent for new tenants.
If I were you, I’d allocate some of that savings towards a deep clean when the tenants who are taking it on now, eventually move out, leaving it, as per inventory, a bit grubby. By then you will also need to redecorate in any case due to normal wear and tear. Financially, you win- so leave their deposit alone!

Well really, the previous lead tenant needs to clean the flat and leave it in the state in which he found it. So if he has not done that, then it's HIS deposit that should be impacted.

You are obligated to provide the flat in the state in which you want it returned to you. So you should be using the money you take from Lead Tenant 1 to have the flat professionally deep cleaned, then take inventory, then when Lead tenant 2 leaves, he/she should leave the flat in that state.

Just to add, I probalby wouldn't bother with any of that, I'm just pointing out what would be technically correct. I'd probably say to the new lead tenant that on their departure, you would expet the place to be deep cleaned professionally.

Since you have no void, and continuing with a tenant you know, and want to start a new inventory and deposit, I'd arrange and pay for cleaning and have the inventory done after.

Then there is no argument.

Either way you will have to pay for a professional clean. At the end if you don't do one, as the new inventory will say not clean.

This way it's done now, onus is on tenant to clean to same standard when they leave, and you have good will and a clean slate, and a positive start to their new tenancy.

Totally all moving out yes, change no

I would pay yourself to have the place deep cleaned. If these are good tenants, it's really not worth rocking the boat over a one off fee that will not break the bank for you. You could have faced other costs in finding tenants, having a break between tenants etc.

They will probably be quite pleased with the place getting a good clean and a good relationship can continue with baseline "clean".

I think the issue might be if you have started a new contract then it might be reasonable for someone to assume that they would return the flat at the end of the contract as it was at the start (if the contract says that).

So if it is in a state at the start of the contract you might not have any backing for claiming cleaning money at the end.

If you photo it now at the start of the contract it will be "dirty" so you will have no backing to be able to claim it should be cleaned at the end.

You also have no clue what they are going to do re cleaning when they leave at the end of their current contract. Some people don't do anything then have a blitz when they move out. So all a bit tricky.

I would probably just be thankful there was no void and maybe try to claim some money at the end, but my guess is that the TPS will be the ultimate decider of whether any money is owed or not.

Love your username (and the drink!) Exactly, I can't get my head around this either.

Why do they need to clean it if its the same tenants? Then going by the same principle, if it was brand new tenants, then it would be the landlord's responsibility to ensure it was up to a clean standard anyway for them moving in?

I'm so glad I'm not a tenant, or a landlord. 🙄

You can deduct money from the deposit for the costs of cleaning the property to the same standard it was when they moved in as long as you have the property professionally cleaned.

It is a bit of a tricky situation because presumably you will want the property to be cleaned to the original standard when the “new” tenants move out? The new inventory will reflect the current poor cleanliness, so they will not have to clean it to the original standard.

I think the fairest thing to do is to let the tenants know that the property needs to be cleaned to the same level as it was when the original tenant moved in and specify the things that you have already noted so that they have chance to rectify things tonight.

Then, if they don’t, you need to send in a cleaner to rectify any issues after the check out inventory and get new photos after the clean for a check in inventory, preferably before things have been replaced in cupboards, the fridge etc after cleaning.

@Vargas to be honest, I am a landlord, you cannot dictate to tenants how to live their lives! that is not fair. create a new tenancy agreement and just get the lead to sign it.

No.
I’m a landlord.
Return the deposit.

You would also need to provide a receipt for the cleaning that was done professionally.

Just throwing out a figure of £200 for cleaning sounds like CF landlord behaviour. I'm not a landlord but I have worked for a lettings agent in a previous life.

There's lots of wear and tear, it's only the cleanliness I'm concerned about.

It's about £250 for end of tenancy clean where I am.