Landlady question re:cleanliness, is this fair?

[Vargas]

A quick rundown:

2 bed flat was professionally cleaned 3.5 years ago, absolutely immaculate. Inventory done.
Lead tenant lived in flat for 3.5 years, with 3 different sharers.
He's moving out and last sharer (6 months) is staying with new flatmate, so the flat is still furnished/food in cupboards etc...
Lead tenant and I decided to start a brand new tenancy, return old deposit, start new deposit etc... as if there are brand new tenants.
The tenants claim to have 'had the flat cleaned'.
BUT having gone round yesterday, the flat is not clean enough for 'new tenants'. Oven filthy, hob filthy, cobwebs, dust on architraves, extractor full of dust, washing machine drawer skanky etc... but there's no damage and tenant has been good, always paid on time, let in workmen, etc...

So DH thinks we should take off £200+ from deposit for cleaning as the 'baseline cleanliness' (his words :-)) is not good enough, and we're having new inventory done tomorrow. I'm inclined to agree, but what do other landladies/tenants think? Does this seem fair?

Why don’t you speak to your tenants about the issue and ask what they would like to do.

If they come up with a solution that suit you both, eg they providing a deep clean, then you have a clean flat and a happy tenant who has saved £200.

I would expect the home to be in an immaculate condition as it was found.
The Deposit however is for damage only.
As landlords sorry but that's part of your business. Marigolds on I'm afraid it's part of the job.
I certainly don't pay someone to clean my hotel room before I leave . I would however expect to find it clean on arrival.
It's the same with a house purchase / rent
Good decent etiquette would mean I would leave my house immaculate. There is absolutely no legal requirement to do so though.
Sorry

Any clause that specifies a professional clean is not enforceable and shouldn't be included. If landlords want the cleaning done professionally they have to pay as a business expense.

That doesn't matter. That clause in a tenancy agreement is not enforceable and should not be included. Sadly lots of landlords don't know this.

No, she wouldn't necessarily need to get a professional clean done herself. The tenants are responsible for returning the property in a clean state as if it had been professionally cleaned. Meaning that the tenants don't have to use a professional cleaner but can clean it themselves to that level. (which they probably won't, as a good professional clean is VERY thorough)

As an ex-landlord, I'd negotiate to split the cost of a 'deep clean' with the original tenant (who is moving out/ and also the new./ staying tenants?) in order to establish a new baseline.
If you were to take photos now and compare them with the photos from the original inventory you would absolutely have a case to take to the TDS! But nobody want that hassle, so just come to some compromise.

Or you could do a landlord inspection and send a detailed summary of all the elements that need addressing before a new tenancy is issued. Dirty oven/kitchen can be a health hazard and dusty extractor fan a fire risk. These sort of things are completely within the remit of tenant responsibility.

Ignore all the posters on here who haven't a clue what they're talking about. Inventories exist for a reason, and the key reason is so that tenants can't leave a dirt and damage when they leave.

You are correct Tenancy agreements tend to say "to a professional standard" so I usually advise my clients to get a company in and show the invoice to avoid any argument about cleaning standards, but they are usually people who have more time money than time anyway.
What a "professional standard" is could be open to interpretation so by having a professional do it its safer for the Tenant.

they can't even do a professional deep clean as the tenants aren't moving out! How are end of tenancy cleaners supposed to clean around everyone's stuff?

It's also not enforceable to stipulate the standard (professional or otherwise!) of clean. If you move into a shit hole then you only have to return it in a shit hole state.

The landlord had our place 'professionally cleaned' before we moved in and it was absolutely disgusting. If he tries to keep any of our money when we leave, I'd refuse to accept a single penny off (and have the luxury of not needing a reference as this is an in between sale / purchase rental).

Landlords fighting over £250. Nice.

@Hoppinggreen I hope I never have you "on my side" in a legal dispute.

For the avoidance of doubt the AST says:

"the Deposit shall be returned to the Tenant less such sum as the Landlord may reasonably require:
...to compensate the Landlord for any reasonable cost incurred to clean the Premises to the same standard as at the beginning of the tenancy;"

The AST doesn't say anything about professional cleaning, but the flat was immaculate and fully inventoried.

This 100%

Where does it say anyone is fighting?

It's not arbitrary. This is in the AST:

"the Deposit shall be returned to the Tenant less such sum as the Landlord may reasonably require:
...to compensate the Landlord for any reasonable cost incurred to clean the Premises to the same standard as at the beginning of the tenancy;"

If the oven is disgusting now, then do an inspection and ask them to clean it/ have it professionally cleaned as well as any other specific issues that you are concerned about. Between a few of them, it wouldn't even cost them much to do. It's not unreasonable at all to want to maintain some basic standards in the property you own. Also, if it becomes really run down and dirty, only tenants who are willing to live in this state will want to rent a room, and then it could become a race to the bottom....
Going forward, do regular inspections, set out basic expectations. Also, put the rent up to a more realistic level- maybe 10% below the local market rates for a similar property. This will then cover you better when repairs and maintenance and the need for cleaning arises. Costs of materials, labour, insurance, service charges (if applicable) and legal requirements have all gone up so much in the last few years, and you'd be a fool not to factor in these rising costs.

Wear and tear isn't filth.

End of tenancy clean is standard.

But you've decided not to have the property vacated between tenants so you can't do this. You can't have it professionally cleaned when people are living in it.

A professional cleaner could certainly focus on the kitchen and bathrooms, which are usually the areas most in need to deep cleaning. They could also clean hallways, some floors and doors and any other communal areas. Anyway, if the oven is really filthy, this will take up most of their time in my experience. Worth getting a specialist oven cleaning company for it instead.

That's seems pretty straight forward then. Either the exiting tenant cleans it to the state it was in the inventory or reimburses you to do so. Seems fair. I rented for years and always deep cleaned at the end of a tenancy as I didn't want to pay for cleaners.

There is the AST with unenforceable clauses and then there is the law. The law trumps the AST. I hope the deposit is in a proper scheme otherwise you will face consequences.

Thanks for this. We do regular inspections, whenever the gas safety check is needed we ask the tenants if we can look around. It is amazing how some people live. At one point the living room curtains were hanging from 2 of 10 rings and half the light bulbs were out in the kitchen and living room. DH sorted them all out and the tenant said thank you and he would have done it but he didn't have a ladder. 🙄 There's plenty of storage space for a step ladder!

Whereas the previous tenants were so clean that it looked like a show home every time we went around, and they had a small child...

This is a completely standard Open Rent AST.

OP- MN is generally quite anti landlord. You'd be best to join a good Facebook group. 'Landlord and Tenant Advice UK' is well run, balanced, and supportive and knowledgable re the legal issues.

A hotel room is very different. Linen, cleaning, turn down service, toiletries, replacement bulbs, heating are things one would expect.

Renting you expect the property to be clean when you move in and you leave it clean when you move out. You are paying for accommodation not hospitality.