Landlady question re:cleanliness, is this fair?

[Vargas]

A quick rundown:

2 bed flat was professionally cleaned 3.5 years ago, absolutely immaculate. Inventory done.
Lead tenant lived in flat for 3.5 years, with 3 different sharers.
He's moving out and last sharer (6 months) is staying with new flatmate, so the flat is still furnished/food in cupboards etc...
Lead tenant and I decided to start a brand new tenancy, return old deposit, start new deposit etc... as if there are brand new tenants.
The tenants claim to have 'had the flat cleaned'.
BUT having gone round yesterday, the flat is not clean enough for 'new tenants'. Oven filthy, hob filthy, cobwebs, dust on architraves, extractor full of dust, washing machine drawer skanky etc... but there's no damage and tenant has been good, always paid on time, let in workmen, etc...

So DH thinks we should take off £200+ from deposit for cleaning as the 'baseline cleanliness' (his words :-)) is not good enough, and we're having new inventory done tomorrow. I'm inclined to agree, but what do other landladies/tenants think? Does this seem fair?

I'm starting to realise! 😂

Thank you.

No, that is fair wear and tear for 3.5 years of normal use.

I had similar as a tenant when I rented. Lived in a place for 8 years, it was cleaned and maintained by me to a good standard, rent always paid on time, never late.

And due to a petty issue like this from the landlord's side I moved out. Matter of principle. It was not a popular part of the town and he struggled to find my replacement, the house stood empty for a good while. Eventually he did, how it went from there - I don't know, could have been fine, could have been not.

Can't stand petty, penny pinching bastards.

Yea, the renting market is different now and you probably won't struggle to find new tenants. Will they be good ones, without issues and pay on time - that's another question. But if you'd try to fleece me like your husband suggests, I'd definitely move out, if I was your tenant.

At one point the living room curtains were hanging from 2 of 10 rings and half the light bulbs were out in the kitchen and living room. DH sorted them all out and the tenant said thank you and he would have done it but he didn't have a ladder. 🙄 There's plenty of storage space for a step ladder!

Kind of surprising that you would expect tenants to buy a stepladder rather than supply one if it's needed for basic household tasks in your building. What are they supposed to do with it when they leave?

All the people who rent on here are in for a world of surprises when they try to leave a shit hole of a house that hadn't been properly cleaned and expect a landlord to foot the bill.
That is NOT wear and tear. Wear and tear is scuffs on the wall after 3 years, a carpet needing replacing after 5 years.

No, a landlord cannot enforce a 'professiomal clean'. But they can enforce a clean to a professional standard, as long as they have photos, an inventory, and a correctly worded contract, and TDS will side with them paying for a professional cleaner to rectify it back to the standard, and charge the tenant for that cost.

And any landlord who doesn't do that- let's see if they carry on doing it when profit levels are reduced drastically for a multitude of reasons, when they're being driven out of the market by ridiculous changers to the legalities of renting and things are basically a lot shitter than they have been.

I know some people are going to say boohoo landlords to this, let's see if the same is said when there are no rental properties left for those who cannot buy for whatever reason.

Yes, and thankfully it also protects the landlord from dirty tenants leaving it like a shithole!

What OP has described isn’t a shithole though? Apart from the dirty cooker, it’s smaller things like a washing machine drawer, dusty extractor and architraves.

Mumsnet isn't anti landlord, but many of us are or have been long term renters and don't have a lot of time for landlords who try to deduct money from deposits unjustly or put legally unenforceable clauses in tenancy agreements.

As a landlady I’d have the oven cleaned and get a cleaner in ready for new tenants. It isn’t that much money and unless you’d been very specific with the cleaning requirements you can’t claim they haven’t cleaned as required.

The tenancy agreement is a standard Open Rent AST, used by thousands of landlords and tenants...I didn't add any clauses.

PPs are correct, it isn’t permitted to have a clause that compels a tenant to professionally cleaned, only that it is cleaned to the same standard as it was at move in.

PPs have made a good point that you are saving marketing costs and won’t have a void because of this arrangement so that offsets the cost of having the property cleaned at the end of the new tenancy. Compromise might be the best solution as both you and the tenants are benefiting from the arrangement, especially as it is such a tricky situation and it isn’t really possible to do an end of tenancy clean with a tenant in situ.

I would probably ask that anything that can be damaged or have its life expectancy reduced by poor cleaning/maintenance or is a safety/health risk is cleaned to the original check in standard eg the oven (grease can cause grill fires), mould in the washing machine, grease on an extractor fan, limescale, mould or bacterial film in the bathroom (all health risks). I would give the tenants chance to rectify it themselves by letting them know before the inventory.

Good lord, so much misinformation on here.

You cannot insist on a property being professionally cleaned, whether you have receipts or not, whether you have proof or not. Even if it's in your tenancy agreement, you still legally cannot insist on a professional clean. Terms in a tenancy agreement do not override legality!

You can only ask that it is returned to the same condition, having allowed for fair wear and tear. This can be done by a professional, or by the tenants sisters friends auntie - you cannot insist it is done by a professional. If the same tenants are staying in the property and just having new contracts, it is not worth rocking the boat over this. If YOU want the property cleaned, you will need to pay for it and then you will have more evidence to use at the end of the tenancy if the property is not up to standard.

I work for one of the accreditation schemes for landlords and agents

I'm confused as to why an end of tenancy clean is required when they are not moving out?

Can you not just write it into your new contract that as this is a sitting tenant moving onto a new contract, an "end of tenancy" clean is not required but will be required upon the instance the tenant completely vacate the property at the end of the new tenancy agreement?

If it was me it would leave a nasty taste in my mouth if you made me do an end of tenancy clean when I wasn't moving. It's a pain in the arse to do so when all your shit is still there!

As PP said, you can put whatever you want in a tenancy agreement - it may not be enforceable however as statute overrides contract i.e. the legislation and law sets the legal requirements and obligations, not your own printed contact from the internet.

You have not mentioned at all who (as in scheme) is holding the deposit and which name it is registered under. If it’s lead tenant only and they are moving out, it will have to be returned to them and a new deposit taken and registered as the tenant. Have you drawn up a new tenancy agreement to reflect changes?

That is also a huge area you seem under informed upon. “Lead tenant” with its implications of subletting, or permitted occupiers etc…it sounds very murky indeed.

As a landlord YOU have statutory obligations and requirements which are extensive. Amateur landlords leave themselves wide open to fucking things up (nice legal term there!) and it can have huge implications. Complying with legislation such as safety like electrical regulations, financial including money laundering checks etc, it’s a huge long list and if you’re going to do it without an agent, at least please pay for your own legal advice to make sure you are compliant. The “asking MN” on something so important demonstrates you don’t have the right knowledge (and don’t know where to look!) and a complicated situation implying your tenancy agreements aren’t correctly worded eg your “lead tenant and a revolving list of other tenants” and the implication the deposit hasn’t been protected correctly is alarming.

(I know you haven’t said this term yourself but please don’t get me started on the MN favourite term of “accidental, or reluctant landlord” which is my pet hate…

Honestly I would advise you to pay for proper legal advice on this to make sure you’re protected, as well as your tenants. It’s a worthwhile investment considering the potential penalties.

No she can't put that in because all they are required to do is return the property to the condition it was in at the start of the tenancy. That's why she's worried about it being grubby now when the tenancy commences. However it's all pointless as there's no way to accurately document the condition of the property at the start of the tenancy since the tenants aren't actually moving out - and after having tenants in non stop for such a long time the landlord will have to to a full clean and repaint from their own business expenses anyway.

I can understand your dilemma OP.

If I were you, I'd get the current, exiting lead tenant to arrange for a professional deep clean so that you can have the inventory done. If they refuse to do so, you should arrange for it and deduct the cost from the deposit.

Whilst the new tenants are already in occupation, the property should be in the same condition at the start of their new tenancy as you'd expect them to return it to you at the end of their tenancy.

She's not allowed to do that! Firstly she can't make the tenant pay for a professional clean, and secondly she can't insist they leave it as they found it because they are leaving it with tenants in situ! OP wants to have it all ways - not have a void period, not have to pay to fix wear and tear or market the property but also wants to set conditions for the new tenants that she's not meeting. There is NO WAY to set a standard of cleaning and repair for the property that the new tenants have to revert to while they are living in it.

Personally, I'd want to keep the goodwill. I'd pay for the cleaning myself. A pp mentioned the dusty extractor fan potentially being a fire risk - I'd want this sorted asap, along with the dirty oven.

I've used this before and would recommend it:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/antibacterial-cleaning-spray-wipes/dettol-5-in-1-antibacterial-washing-machine-cleaner/910002053945

@Glorybox2025 you're right. What I meant was the OP should insist the exiting tenant should either clean or arrange for cleaning to a professional standard (assuming it was cleaned to that standard at the start of the tenancy).

She could, but she's not enabling a vacant property for them to clean because she prefers to run from one tenant to the other without any of the expense and effort of a void period. Obviously that is also better for the current tenants too, but she can't have it all ways. Sounds like the outgoing tenant has cleaned as well as they can and if that's not good enough that's not going to be possible to enforce given that other people are still living in the house!

I'm not insisting on professional cleaning, and one of the tenants is changing, and one has only been in for 6 months.

The outgoing tenant has not 'cleaned as well as they can' 😂. I'm not sure why it's difficult to clean appliances just because someone is still living in the house. Carpets I understand, and I'm not bothered about but the oven? The washing machine? The extractor fan? The hob? The dishwasher?

Tenants should leave the flat in much the same condition as when the tenancy started less reasonable wear and tear.

Of course, definitions of reasonable wear and tear may differ …

🙄🙄🙄take it with them, like the rest of their furniture. Not everyone lives in furnished housing. Most adults have their own stuff.