Landlady question re:cleanliness, is this fair?

[Vargas]

A quick rundown:

2 bed flat was professionally cleaned 3.5 years ago, absolutely immaculate. Inventory done.
Lead tenant lived in flat for 3.5 years, with 3 different sharers.
He's moving out and last sharer (6 months) is staying with new flatmate, so the flat is still furnished/food in cupboards etc...
Lead tenant and I decided to start a brand new tenancy, return old deposit, start new deposit etc... as if there are brand new tenants.
The tenants claim to have 'had the flat cleaned'.
BUT having gone round yesterday, the flat is not clean enough for 'new tenants'. Oven filthy, hob filthy, cobwebs, dust on architraves, extractor full of dust, washing machine drawer skanky etc... but there's no damage and tenant has been good, always paid on time, let in workmen, etc...

So DH thinks we should take off £200+ from deposit for cleaning as the 'baseline cleanliness' (his words :-)) is not good enough, and we're having new inventory done tomorrow. I'm inclined to agree, but what do other landladies/tenants think? Does this seem fair?

@MiserableMrsMopp I think certain agencies attract landlords who want to do the absolute least for their tenants whilst making the biggest profits and are therefore looking for opportunities to deduct money. I have previously been represented by larger agencies who were similar. My current agency charges more and expects more of its landlords and consequently tenants are happier, stay longer and respect the properties. Personally for me it’s a no brainer but I think perhaps others don’t see that

@anon2022anon but it’s not their responsibility to have it professionally cleaned! They are responsible for leaving it clean but if a professional clean is down at the start of the tenancy then unless they are professional cleaners then they are set up to fail.

No, it's their responsibility to leave it in the same condition that they found it. They don't have to use professional cleaners, they can do it themselves, but they can't do a crap standard and expect the landlord to pay to rectify it. If they are handed a toilet with no limescale, a defrosted fridge freezer, and extractor fans with no grease, that's what they need to give back. If they don't have the skills, they need to pay someone who does, or the landlord is well within their rights to use the deposit to pay for it.

This is from the shelter website. Return it to how you find it, pay someone else to do it or the landlord can use your deposit.

I'm actually a bit shocked that you're a landlord of over a decade, and not aware of the legalities of deposits/ enforceable clauses. The TDS website has lots of information if you dig about enough, though they don't make it easy.

Landlords aren't allowed to stipulate a professional clean.

Why not offer the new tenants an option of 200 off the deposit if they deep clean it? It's money you'd spend on a cleaner but your technically paying them to do the job.
I had this offer with old LL when it came to decorating

Back before the deposit protection scheme I was privately renting. Paid for a cleaning company as we were moving out but the landlord still took a significant chunk of our deposit for cleaning. We had three properties sold under us as tenants in the space of three years, each one taking some deposit for no good reason. It left us homeless in the end because we ran out of money for new deposits!

My point is taking even a little bit each time can leave people struggling unless there it is really necessary.

Luckily being left homeless meant we ended up with a council property which was a relief after being forced to move so many times.

@Tumbleweed101 I'm sorry you went through that, and I'm very glad the deposit schemes are now in place to stop landlords stealing money they shouldn't. However that doesn't mean that some tenants shouldn't have to pay cleaning charges/ have them deducted from their deposit. It's in a contract for a reason, and the tenant has to follow it or pay for it to be followed.
There was nothing stopping this tenant from spending a day cleaning out washing machine seals, extractor fans and ovens. It's in his contract.

But for all intents and purposes it's a new tenancy. The new tenants are being issued with a new lease etc etc.

I think that @Vargas is being very reasonable.

As I said earlier, you sound very uninformed about the legalities here “various sharers” - so he was subletting? The terms flatmate/lead tenant/sharers/tenant etc are not interchangeable and have different implications for you legally as a landlord, and as PP said, possibly skirting along HMO territory depending upon location.

You’ve also avoided the issue of how the deposit has been protected and in whose names, whether it’s been changed upon amendment of contract etc.

You can tell people to “get a grip” for giving you this advice (which you asked for!) but at the end of the day, it’s to protect you as well as the tenant. There are huge implications financially as well as legally. It’s in your interest to get proper legal advice (not from Mumsnet! As you can see we all differ in our opinions as well as knowledge of relevant legislation). If you’re freewheeling being a landlord without correct legal and professional knowledge or advice, you’re risking A LOT personally. In addition to the tenants own safety and legal rights. Providing housing to people isn’t a hobby, it’s a serious business. Treat it professionally - you aren’t at the moment and it’s obvious from your posts as well as the very fact you’ve come to MN to seek legal advice from random people from the internet. (Yep, like me! So feel free to discard it and insult people to have taken the time to give advice - it’s you that will be on the hook for any fuck ups. I’ve seen cases where tenants (including children) have died due to landlords who haven’t provided safe or substandard housing and landlords prosecuted for this, as well as financial things like tax evasion. Civil penalties like paying a tenant for not protecting their deposit correctly…it’s not for amateurs.

I'm a landlord. I've only had 1 issue with end of tenancy cleanliness with regards a stinking carpet the tenant had 'spot cleaned' despite contract saying, as they had dogs they had to professionally clean. I kept the extra dog deposit of £100 ...as an aside when the carpet was cleaned, the cleaner said the water was black! I returned rest of deposit as everything else was fine.
I'm generally pretty pragmatic about end of lease cleanliness but we have people in usually for many years so by the time they leave the house needs not only a deep clean but redecoration and renewal of things anyway.
We will fix and replace things promptly and last summer did a tenants bathroom whilst they were away and whilst there sorted a number of other minor jobs just to get the house nice and sorted for them.

Not RTFT.
The way I'd look at is cost of a void period vs a deep clean when they leave.
What's the rent? Let's say £1000pcm

Cost of void:
No rent for minimum 1 week (because there will be odd jobs to be done): £250
Finder's fee from letting agent: £500
Council tax, utilities: £50
Total: £800 minimum.

That is loads cheaper than a full clean. I'd pay back the first tenant's deposit, for the sake of a good relationship with new lead tenant and the overall saving.

.@exAgent
I think you've misunderstood the use of 'lead tenant' here, and there's no suggestion that the original tenant is subletting, so I think you can stop with the various accusations and patronising tone.
'Lead tenant' is a term used by the deposit schemes to indicate who they will correspond with and return the deposit to. The OP is using the term in this context!
I'm surprised you were't aware of this yourself, if you are an ex estate agent. I guess every day is a learning day...

Hands up to patronising tone, I’ve been called on that before on similar threads and I apologise as I really don’t mean to be, I just find amateur landlords trying to justify unfair costs really infuriating, as it (ironically!) contributes to landlords being bad money grasping fuckers reputation. And let’s not even go there on the estate/rental agent reputation My communication here can also be poor as I find it hard to balance the casual forum v work tone, especially as I’m terribly impatient too, not a good combo!

I do read it as possible sub letting though as three various sharers and one only being there six months, gives impression of turnover of people “sourced” by tenant rather than landlord. “Sharers” as a term throws up possible scenarios to me. It’s not obvious to me that OP was using “lead tenant” in the deposit sense, it read to me like “main guy who has mates to stay at various times”, if that makes sense!

Anyway I think the fact OP doesn’t realise the “statute overrides contract” aspect as well as wanting to charge unfairly (IMO) and coming to MN for legal advice, it gives the impression she doesn’t really know what she’s doing. I can’t word that any less patronisingly btw, that’s the best I can come up with! I try not to be directly rude eg “is a shit landlord” as it’s, well, rude so I think I’m being subtle but obviously coming across as a pompous dick Occupational hazard

@ExAgent - you seem convinced otherwise, but there's been no subletting. The new tenants have been 'sourced' by the lead tenant because they're friends or work colleagues, a completely normal way to turnover tenants surely?! The contracts are updated every time. I can link to the Open Rent website if you want to know how to do this?

I use the term 'lead tenant' as it's in the AST and on the OpenRent website. There's no HMO issue, I've checked and I re-check regularly. You can believe me or not, I really don't care.

The deposit has been protected via an organisation called mydeposits (tenants' choice and used by Open Rent) and is in both tenants' names. I haven't changed the amount since the first tenant started 3.5 years ago, but the names get changed every time a new tenant replaces an old one.

@MadinMarch is correct, you do sound ultra-patronising. I'm not a shit landlord. The lead tenant (yes!) just sent me an email thanking me and DH for being great landlords. Again, believe me or not, I don't care.

For amateur landlords, tenants sourcing new tenants can be popular as it saves advertising fees. There is also a temptation not to reference as they’re “known” to the tenant especially if they’re a work colleague. It doesn’t take away your obligation though to check their identification and right to rent in the UK etc which is still a pain in the arse. And if there is a complete switch of tenants (like your situation) you have the obvious problem of no void period to carry out the correct check out procedures - things like meter reads as well as inventory check, arranging works that need doing like any minor repairs and cleaning so a new updated inventory can be issued. Exactly like your problem here. So carry on thinking you’re a great landlord, after you have solicited advice from MN with your question:
“So DH thinks we should take off £200+ from deposit for cleaning as the 'baseline cleanliness' (his words :-)) is not good enough, and we're having new inventory done tomorrow. I'm inclined to agree, but what do other landladies/tenants think? Does this seem fair?”

You are not a “great landlord” you are an amateur landlord. I stand by my opinion that there are just too many landlords who don’t understand the system and their obligations and “don’t know what they don’t know” if that makes sense! I’m retired from the industry now not just for health reasons and age but just saw too many problems in the housing market these days especially private rental sector. I started work in the property industry before BTL mortgages even existed! So have decades of experience of how it has developed and have worked up from the very very bottom of the career ladder in sales, lettings and property management “on the ground” as well as CPD, gaining qualifications and developing training and holding roles in regulatory bodies, carrying out research, and speaking at conferences. So yes I probably do come across as a pompous dick on MN.

I just get generally fed up with the way that the basic need of housing, and families having a safe roof over their heads, has changed to an investment vehicle for individuals, a lot of whom don’t know what they are doing. (Also the way public rhetoric sees universal credit claimants as scroungers, and doesn’t realise that it’s not claimants who directly receive all this “taxpayers money”, a huge amount is going to individuals, amateur landlords who are basically having their mortgages paid off by the governments UC housing allowance). While so many tenants lack security and are put at risk and exploited by landlords who don’t have enough professional knowledge (as your post demonstrated). So I’d rather work with Shelter and Crisis and local services instead and really really need to learn not to engage on MN when landlords ask things like if they can take £200 off their tenants as they can’t agree with their DH! It never ends well! On MN landlords are always great landlords with professional tenants not claiming UC, they charge well below market rent and haven’t put it up for years and respond to all enquiries quickly. Sometimes they even let them have a pet!
Anyway I really will step away. I accept I come across as a patronising pompous dick, I know that’s how I come across when I communicate on social media and I really don’t mean to be! I can never get the tone right. I’m just so fed up with how fucked up housing is in this country. (ATM I’m watching the current debacle of flats and scandals of leasehold charges literally through my fingers).

@ExAgent

But you're being unrealistic and idealistic here - what's the alternative, that the OP makes the remaining tenants homeless so she can meet a legal obligation to complete the perfect inventory pre-tenancy?! Don't be silly! (Can just imagine the MN thread on that!)

I can see you have lots of experience in the industry, and you sound very jaded and bitter here, but most of what you say isn't relevant to the OP's situation.

In my experience the 'professional' landlords and agents my DC have experienced have been the worst - ignoring emergency calls, lying on paperwork and inventories and making bogus deposit claims (which we fought and won) so I'd prefer a landlord like the OP any day!