Landlady question re:cleanliness, is this fair?

[Vargas]

A quick rundown:

2 bed flat was professionally cleaned 3.5 years ago, absolutely immaculate. Inventory done.
Lead tenant lived in flat for 3.5 years, with 3 different sharers.
He's moving out and last sharer (6 months) is staying with new flatmate, so the flat is still furnished/food in cupboards etc...
Lead tenant and I decided to start a brand new tenancy, return old deposit, start new deposit etc... as if there are brand new tenants.
The tenants claim to have 'had the flat cleaned'.
BUT having gone round yesterday, the flat is not clean enough for 'new tenants'. Oven filthy, hob filthy, cobwebs, dust on architraves, extractor full of dust, washing machine drawer skanky etc... but there's no damage and tenant has been good, always paid on time, let in workmen, etc...

So DH thinks we should take off £200+ from deposit for cleaning as the 'baseline cleanliness' (his words :-)) is not good enough, and we're having new inventory done tomorrow. I'm inclined to agree, but what do other landladies/tenants think? Does this seem fair?

Kindly, OP (from someone who ended up being a reluctant landlord at one point in my life) you've had a reliable tenant for more than three years. The very least you can do is not punish him/her for three years of minor wear and tear. The flat isn't going to be vacated, the tenancy is going to swap over smoothly and cost you very little. No void, no advertising, no agency fees to check references etc. If everyone concerned is happy to live with a few cobwebs and some dust then leave them to it. You can't enforce unrealistic levels of cleaning on a rented flat and expecting it to be cleaned to a professional standard at all times. Many landlords, after three years, would have an awful lot of work to do when tenants left. You've been lucky: don't push it.

Sounds incredibly tight to me and will cause bad feeling for no noticable benefit. So glad I don't rent anymore.

And that should be included in your costings when you are calculating rent.

A deep clean at the end of a tenancy is an expected cost paid by the landlord. You can’t hold on to a deposit for things like dust on architraves and a dusty extractor fan etc

If they had trashed the place that would be different, but you need to expect that not all tenants will keep a place immaculately. People often care less about a rented property than one they own, especially if they’re intending to move on. That’s natural and to be expected.

Don’t keep the deposit. It’s the sort of thing that gives landlords a bad name and with good reason in this case (and I say that as a landlord).

Yes, the issue is when the 'new' tenants move out, there won't be a correct 'baseline clean'. I really don't mind if they want to live with it filthy (the oven really is disgusting), it's what happens when these tenants leave and brand new ones come in. I guess the consensus on here is that we just pay for it to be professionally cleaned in a year or two when this set of tenants move out.

And also, thinking about it, the inventory is more important from a breakages and damage point of view, so we should still get that done, and just ignore the filth!

For those inclined to believe I am a dreadfully cruel landlady, I would note that the rent is well below market and we respond to issues immediately!

Good luck getting that past the TDP.

No, you can't knock money off just because you feel like it.

Our previous tenants have always had the flat professionally cleaned when they left. Is this not standard practice? It's what I always did when renting too...

Really? When I was a tenant, I always paid for or did the end of tenancy clean.

No, it is most certainly not standard practice. Not where I am anyway.

Tenants, by contract, are required to leave the property in the state it was when they started their tenancy. This is standard practice. Have you never rented?

It all depends on what the tenancy agreement says, my ds moved out of a flat and one of the clauses was that it was deep cleaned at his cost.

This is in the AST:

'to compensate the Landlord for any reasonable cost incurred to clean the Premises to the same standard as at the beginning of the tenancy;'

That isn't true. If it is in the contract, it is up to the tenant to leave the place the way it was found. There is no obligation to use the deductions to actually do it.

Mostly people clean themselves here. Standards do vary. A professional deep clean by the tenant is not part of our contracts.

Usually we need to do maintenance/redecorating and deep clean afterwards anyway. Deposit is always returned unless there’s egregious damage to the property. Normal wear and tear and some dust, badly cleaned washing machine drawers etc are very usual.

Yes, a long while ago privately, not through an agent. I would always leave a property in a clean and well maintained condition before ending my contract.

But in this case its different as the same people will be there. There are no major damages, just a bit grubby.
Who is asking for the deep clean, the agency? Is it a requirement from them that new photographs are needed at the end of each tenancy to show it in its original condition?

Or do you just want to piss the "new" tenants off and cause bad feeling so they'll leave anyway?

Because the contract states that the tenant needs to leave the flat in the good condition it started in.
If she doesn't charge this tenant, the new tenants inventory will not be in 'clean condition'. At the end of the new tenancy, the tenants leaving will only have to leave the flat in the condition it started in, ie. Dirty. The landlord will then have to pay to have it cleaned.

That's not enforceable.

The tenant just has to hand the property back in the state it was on occupation, allowing for wear and tear. Inventory and agreement together with photos can indicate how clean it was - the tenant should match that, but it's up to them how that happens. You can't have a clause requiring expenditure beyond rent!

The TDS will almost certainly side with the landlord on the flat not being cleaned to the same standard, as long as you have clear check in and check out photos and inventory.

OP, to the letter of the law, you are probably correct. But there are some situations where it will be more favourable to you all round to take a cost on the chin. This is one of those situations. You pay for a deep clean, the tenants will be happy that it's clean, they'll be more inclined/able to keep it clean. They are good tenants. You could have all sorts of nightmares with a rental property. This is a small issue that you can fix easily. Honestly, I would just pay for the clean and keep relations good. People aren't perfect, but these people seem to be good/decent and that is valuable.

Would I pursue it: yes.
I would estimate a standard end of tenancy cost, including oven clean, and tell the tenant leaving that cost. I would give them the opportunity to have another go themselves if they want, but provide images from when they moved in to the standard needed- quite often it's things like ovens, extractor fans, limescale, fridges, freezers needing defrosting, washing machine seals and drawers.

I would then discuss with the new tenant whether they would like to move as many of their belongings as possible out to start the tenancy on the same standard, or whether they would like the current standard marked on their inventory and then use the money for the cleaning at the end of that tenancy.

I work in lettings, and we absolutely wouldn't let this slide, as we wouldn't be able to let a flat in that condition, so at some point you'll be paying for it otherwise.

You should always, as a LL, cost in a clean between tenants. They are not obliged to have a place professionally cleaned.

All of the LLs I know (and I've been a LL for 18 years now) see end of tenancy cleans as a basic expense. It's just a bonus if the tenant does one (or cleans to a professional standard themselves).

Why would I want to piss off the tenants? What a strange remark. I have no wish for them to leave.

It's not the same people, it's one new tenant and one who's only been there 6 months. I think it's only fair that the old tenant pays something towards cleaning the flat, but I can see that this might not work in practice, that's why I was asking the question here.

Most landlords have a gap between tenants during which they need to have the property brought back up to scratch. This always involves an additional deep clean payable by the landlord but tax deductible. Usually there is a loss of rent during this period.

You are actually saving a lot of money by not having a gap between tenants and not having to renovate between tenants. I would just complete a new inventory with the actual state of the property and resign myself to paying for a clean once these tenants leave.

Deposit monies are there to compensate landlords for serious damage. You are running a business so should expect to pay reasonable expenses.

Well obviously the thread letting agent recommends fleecing the tenants. Quelle surprise.

Thank you. I'm inclined to agree. Although if they're happy to have it grubby I might just go ahead with the inventory as is and pay for the professional clean when this set of tenants eventually leave.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree, thank you.