Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

Minimum wage renters in Cornwall difficult but no way near as difficult as minimum wage renting in London.
Loads and loads and loads minimum wage in London.

Think so easy for the poor in London so move there. Soon find out reality.

Where are these grammar schools you mention OP? I lived in N.Devon for years and there were no grammar schools there. A few independent schools in the area but the state schools were comprehensives and,when we lived there,were very good.

Elsie, very ignorant if you think all Jewish people are rich and none poor. I know several Jewish people in London who are on minimum wage or benefits. Ignorant stereotype you're thinking. Not all Jewish people are religious btw and don't all need to live in particular infrastructure areas. People I know aren't religious and good thing cos they can't afford to rent on those areas you're thinking of and can't really afford to rent anywhere in London.

Btw my grandad left school at 12. Couldn't afford to stay on. That wasnt something only happened to people in Cornwall. Dad passed 11+ but couldn't afford to go to university either.
You so ignorant about London.

OP ignorant about London. Says people sold London homes and moved to her area and got worse last two years. People done that to Londoners for long time. Years and years and years. Move to London and price out Londoners. It's happening maybe to you now too but nothing new to Londoners.

Turfed out into B&B's been happening in London many years. You look at how long Londoners stuck in B&B's or homeless temp. Longer than in Cornwall. Years.

You probably don't even have 80,000 children in Cornwall. 80,000 London children homeless.

Sorry if problems poor Londoners have suffered many years starting to happen to Cornwall too but no way is it as bad as London situation. You have no clue of being poor or vulnerable Londoner. Lives destroyed for many years.

Was someone on another thread I read here maybe 2 months ago. A domestic violence or housing person. They said only place in UK where refuges have big problem rehousing domestic violence victims is London.

London very bad and dangerous place to be poor and vulnerable.

Sorry upset but the people who angry about bad things with housing starting to happen where they are. Am sorry cos promise you that no one understands what it's like more than a non rich Londoner.

Very bad and ignorant to think it's worse in Cornwall than London. Maybe bad there and sorry for that, but situation in London is extreme.

Hope you don't get that bad too cos wldnt wish it on anyone.

Sorry again for so many posts and being upset but life as Londoner who's poor is hell. Housing one of most expensive in world but loads and loads of Londoners on low wage minium wage.

Support services bad. Social services and other places.

Sorry getting bad now where you are but please don't think it's better in London cos it's worse. Don't wish that on you and hope you don't get that bad.

@nosafeguardingadults my DH's mum earns below minimum wage. Also owns a house in north London worth 750k as you could buy a house for 100k in 1996 which she did. If she downsized and had 2 kids instead of 4, she could afford to give each child 100k deposit each plus whatever they could save living at home. That is the advantage established London locals have.

Good lord guys, we are trying to have a debate resulting in solutions for Cornwall here. So yes please do stop posting @nosafeguardingadults at least until you learn to proof read one decent post to a legible standard? Please?

Housing is the main issue. There's no point in doing a degree while living in a tent, I've tried. There is an agenda run by Cornwall's 1% and a good place to start is by looking at those who can buy up that which should be public property, eg beaches, eg. Fifteen Cornwall, the Watergate Bay Hotel, Lusty glaze, Eden project and its board of trustees. Some of these names just keep popping up. They are going north now too. And why does our council seemingly hemmorage money into the pockets of solicitors and consultants?

When the industry begins to collapse because Cornish peasants don't want to fetch their drinks for a pittance any more, or theses not enough migrants, they come for your kids promising accommodation, a slave wage and "training". It's about to happen again.

"only place in UK where refuges have big problem rehousing domestic violence victims is London"

Absolutely not true, been in two refuges before the crisis got worse, it was bad enough then because there was no where to move the women on to.

Now it's worse, they send high risk women into standard b&b emergency accommodation. I saw it first hand, in the emergency accommodation August 2021.

I'm in Falmouth and it has changed drastically over the last ten years. Our MP (despite what some think) gets this problem as I heard her say she also cannot get on the housing ladder and rents.

It's not about building more, although that will help, it's about freeing up the existing housing stock and making those properties accessible for locals.

I don't know what the answer is to be honest.

Interesting post OP and thanks for sharing.

I also am not clear on how you can go from 11 As at GCSE to not being able to go to university - couldn’t you sit your A levels? And your dad - as others have said, the 11 plus was free?

This is so sad OP.
hobwsky holiday lets and second homes should be strictly regulated . No more than X percentage

Also IDK why unrelated stories of London, refugees etc.

BTW if you want to play poverty top trumps being able to flee as a refugee is ABSOLUTELY a privilege. Because the majority of war/natural disaster/etc victims are internally displaced. Comparison helps nobody!

OK name changed...

I have informed thoughts on this because I'm working class Cornish and have lived in London for 18 years (the horror!). I left at 18, getting great A Level results (no grammar schools in Cornwall) went to a RG university. I'm just over 40 and I don't know anyone who didn't go on to college, whether for A levels or for something vocational, but maybe the OP is much older than me. I couldn't do any open days though- train fares and hotels out of the question- so just guessed. It worked out fine, as it did for a lot of my friends. My brother left too, but has gone back. My dad left school at 14 and has worked manual jobs his whole life.

Cornish poverty is deep, grinding and miserable. It is all the more compounded by recent rocketing house prices but has been bad for a lot longer than that. The weather is often grey, everything is expensive.

The village I am from has almost totally sold out to holiday cottages. But some of the responsibility for that has to be taken by a lot of the families from the village who have been perfectly happy to sell those houses as lets- there are also a few 'old families' in my village who are basically slum landlords, letting out badly maintained damp cottages at high rents to locals, who don't feel they can challenge it because of the social network of the community. The parish and county council (also dominated by a set of families) have continually refused to pass bylaws or legislation to impose extra taxes or restrictions on development because they profit. Locals could vote better and get better.

I've also worked in social mobility in London. It is exactly the same set of factors (geography, income, housing, community aspiration) that impacts young people in London. Lots of kids in Tower Hamlets barely leave their estates, let alone head a couple of miles into the city. Proximity doesn't equal access.

Comparison is totally unhelpful and doesn't help Cornwall. We don't eat gold in London.

Progressive taxation on holiday properties and tourism, A progressive county council, not voting for brexit, embracing a diverse economy (fondly remembering a relative telling me recently they 'didn't see why cornwall needed high speed broadband'), but also national level action on housing which is an issue everywhere. Blaming 'London' is so boring and doesn't move things on.

I, and lots of my friends who also left, feel pretty much alienated from our heritage now because we feel seen as the enemy when we go home. It's even more of a shame because cornwall has been so proudly diverse for so long- we have Spanish and Breton ancestry mixed in there as we're a fishing family.

It is shit. But blame the real targets, successive governments, not people who live in London, most of who are from somewhere else (even Cornwall!) themselves.

Yes I’m struggling with this part. I don’t understand how the op could achieve this high level at her secondary school then be unable to achieve passing grades at a level at her same school, to enable her to go to university. Funding has pretty much always been available for further education, I grew up poor but was able to get a grant to go to college, and then it changed to loans and I’m in my fifties.

As someone that was born and raised in a 'sink town', I do have limited sympathy with people who were fortunate enough to have been raised in some of the most beautiful parts of the UK and then feel that they should be automatically entitled to stay there their entire lives.

The reality is that housing in these places is a finite resource and lots of people would love to live or at least holiday there, hence why there is such demand in these areas and prices are so high. Sure that might price out locals who can't afford to buy, but what other system would be totally fair?

I think OP and others have massively overlooked the fact that living in these areas is a privilege that is out of reach of many people. Giving locals rights to housing in desirable areas is entrenching privilege and making it harder for anyone from undesirable areas with aspirations to move to better areas through hard work.

Unless you're going to build lots of new housing in these areas which would probably ruin their beauty and essence anyway, then why should locally born people and all subsequent generations hog all the houses whilst the rest of us are left to reside in the less desirable areas for entire lives. How is that fair?

I’m an incomer in the southwest, bought a very modest house in an unfancy village a couple of years back. I’m aware that I’m part of the problem although I live in my house. BUT when I was house hunting, two of of eight properties I viewed were second homes. One of my friends here lives in a rented house that is owned by people who live abroad. One of the houses in my small street is a second home and was empty when I moved here. I am pretty sure that if there were a block on buying second homes, the local housing crisis would evaporate. Another point: I spend my money locally, in the village, where I can. I donate to the foodbank, I give to local causes, I take part in community events. What is very noticeable here is the strength of the community. The people who grew up here all know one another and look out for one another and if you’re an incomer you aren’t part of that network. You have to work at it.

There is huge inequality in the South West largely due to the fact that house prices are driven up by swcond homeowners. Local wages are not high enough in most cases for locals on lower wages to afford. This is different to the north because in many rural areas where you have lots of people working in agriculture etc there isn't the same lack of space and second home ownership so prices are more balanced....in general, although I know there are places where this isnt the case.

I grew up in Cornwall and now live in rural Devon. I teach in a rural school and the thing it does frustrates me that there is low aspiration and lack of value on education from parents. However, this is because we have been left behind, inner city schools have all had new builds they can make use of short distances for cultural and educational visits. We work really hard to give our students the same opportunities as the local grammar and private schools but we don't have enough funding to do this and distance makes it too expensive. Coach travel to run visits to our nearest Univerisities is hundreds of pounds. Our town has no A level provision. Bus links are shambolic. It is very hard for children living in this environment to get out. I've had parents refuse to let their child study A levels bevause they didn't want them doing a 30 min bus ride (not a funding issue).

I am lucky, I didn't have a wealthy background but I went to University back when grants and fees being paid for you existed. A lot of young people who leave for uni now incur so much debt they need to live elsewhere in order to get a decent wage to make it worthwhile.

As someone that was born and raised in a 'sink town', I do have limited sympathy with people who were fortunate enough to have been raised in some of the most beautiful parts of the UK and then feel that they should be automatically entitled to stay there their entire lives.

Not everyone feels entitled to live in the exact place where they grey up but if the people earning minimum wage serving the tourists industry can't afford to live close to where they work, then what happens?

Say they work in St Ives but live in Camborne, rent on the small flat I used to own there has jumped £300 per month in the last year. That's one of the cheapest towns in Cornwall and one of the poorest too.

What do you think would happen if the people earning minimum wage in the tourist sector could no longer live there? Do you think tourism in Cornwall would just stop?
Look at what's happened in London or other places in the UK/around the world where similar has happened? It hasn't led to the end of industry/tourism that's for sure.

Housing housing housing at the moment are the issues. I can't remember who did the research but recently there was a report which outlined that in villages like mine there were literally 100s of Airbnb rentals (granted some are just rooms in houses, but still) and literally ZERO residential rentals.
The report was in the last month. I'll try and find it.
As far as I can see it's only the Lib Dems down here who are campaigning. It really doesn't help that we (collectively) keep voting for numpties like Eustace and Thomas. Sorry not sorry to be political

What do you think would happen if the people earning minimum wage in the tourist sector could no longer live there? Do you think tourism in Cornwall would just stop?

Of course not, but last summer, some facilities were closed or operating reduced hours or with fewer services due to lack of staff. It makes holidaying in the area less appealing if you can’t book a meal where you want or have to wait ages to get served.

And tourism isn’t the biggest industry, at least in Devon. Most residents don’t rely on it for their income. Can’t speak for Cornwall. I’m more concerned about parents being unable to work due to lack of childcare staff, or lack of carers for the elderly is a bigger issue. Things that massively affect quality of life for residents.

Here it is

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwall-hotspots-over-2000-airbnbs-7018524?fbclid=IwAR3dLg5-Ufp7gjPw51FMS7QPa3lTxS7iOQe3h2seIBWTkptO11_W-0rO0Xs

What do you think would happen if the people earning minimum wage in the tourist sector could no longer live there? Do you think tourism in Cornwall would just stop?

It wouldn't just stop but it is already becoming more different to find staff to employ. It would help if they employers paid a bit more. You can't advise people to up skill and get a better job if you then complain that there are no people to fill the minimum wage jobs.
Cornwall isn't London or any other city, cities have houses divided up for people to share to reduce the costs of living, Cornwall has these but in much fewer number and they are not suited to families of course.

My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer.

Did you come back and explain which year this was @GraceJonesBiggestFan ? There was no additional expensive tutoring when I (40s) my siblings (50s) my uncles (60/70s) my parents (80s) or my grandparents (now long gone, but would be 100) passed the 11+.