Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

I'd assume the OP was referring to this: www.rsnonline.org.uk/urban-schools-get-more-funding-than-rural-counterparts

I currently live in a tourist town and many houses have been split into HMOs with rents that are affordable for people on NMW. I imagine the same could happen to Cornwall, where more houses are split to accommodate more workers. These workers tend to be young and choose to live here because of the lifestyle it affords by the beach and with other young people.

The fact the housing type isn't appropriate for families isn't necessarily a problem if you can find enough people willing to live in this kind of accommodation to fill the NMW and essential jobs.

I feel though that in reality the heart of the argument isn't really about this but is instead about local people that have grown up in a lovely area feeling that they should have some automatic entitlement to stay and raise their own families there. I have very limited sympathy with this outlook because like I stated earlier, many of us did not have the good fortune to be raised in such a beautiful places and actually if we work hard and earn enough, why shouldn't we be able to live in a beautiful area? If the locals want affordable housing then I can list a whole series of towns and places in the UK (including the one I was born in) that can offer this but I don't suppose that is quite as appealing. Strange that....

Bumpity, it's not about living in a beautiful area so much as living near your family, friends, support network, the place you know and love.

It's all about family and community, not about young people being shipped into areas, living in possibly crowded, substandard HMOs, doing the waiting, cleaning and bar work, but that's OK because they can go surfing every afternoon.

And it's not so much about people moving to an area with the intention of living and working there full time, using local amenities, kids going to local school, it's about houses occupied for a few weeks a year, or houses occupied by a transient population who are not part of the community.

@Bumpitybumper you say:

I feel though that in reality the heart of the argument isn't really about this but is instead about local people that have grown up in a lovely area feeling that they should have some automatic entitlement to stay and raise their own families there. I have very limited sympathy with this outlook because like I stated earlier, many of us did not have the good fortune to be raised in such a beautiful places and actually if we work hard and earn enough, why shouldn't we be able to live in a beautiful area? If the locals want affordable housing then I can list a whole series of towns and places in the UK (including the one I was born in) that can offer this but I don't suppose that is quite as appealing. Strange that....

You are advocating the wholesale destruction of social cohesion and less well off communities, out of what appears to be pure jealousy. How very very nasty.

Yes it is a shame and I agree that the 2nd home owners and air B&B make it so difficult and there should be some affordable housing for the people living in the counties. I've always thought this though for areas not just the West Country

OOH my dc have moved away and are priced out of the area I grew up in

I understand that people want to stay with their families and support network but it simply isn't sustainable when demand for housing massively outstrips supply. The housing is desirable (and therefore expensive) because it is objectively a beautiful place to live and lots of people either want to live there or holiday there.

It isn't just the SW that suffers from this problem as any area with rising demand for housing will experience the same. More people want to live there, house prices rise and it pushes those least able to afford the housing out of the area. Those less wealthy people tend to move to other less expensive areas and set down roots there. Over time they will raise their family in the new place and develop a support network. This has happened many times in my family's history as I'm sure it has also happened to many other people.

Conversely if you are in a less desirable area with limited economic opportunity then you are often forced out of the area and away from your support network and family if you want to 'better' yourself. You see this with immigrants from other countries but also from parts of the UK. If these people are successful and make enough money then they may well be adding to the demand for housing experienced in nicer parts of the country. Personally I don't see anything wrong with this and believe that 'nice places' shouldn't just be reserved for those who happen to have been born or raised there.

I'm not jealous as I live in a lovely tourist town myself that has a mix of holiday homes but also a lovely, vibrant community formed of people from all over the country and world. Very few people are local but everyone has meshed together wonderfully. It is probably a far cry from the community that existed here decades ago but I'm not sure that's such a terrible thing. The people that live here love it and really appreciate the beauty of the town.

But that doesn't work - who is going to service the wealthy holiday home owners and tourists? Who is going to look after them if they fall ill or have an accident? Need to buy groceries or a potato peeler? Have a fire in their expensive holiday home and need it put out? Are the victims of a crime? Want their rubbish collected, streets swept, snow ploughed?

And does your lovely tourist town have more than 20% of homes occupied by permanent residents?

@Bumpitybumper you really don't get this do you? There are plenty of homes to meet local demand but this is being totally undermined by incredibly entitled outsiders who knowingly see the destruction of local communities as their right, and you are a perfect example.

You are advocating the involuntary relocation of families to suit the desires of a wealthy elite. This is not sustainable and it is entirely avoidable. Please don't head west any time soon with that kind of attitude.

As mentioned upthread, in my town a substantial amount of lower paid work is done by younger people living in HMOs, often from other countries learning English at the same time. They seem happy with the setup and do a fantastic job.

Equally, some jobs command a higher wage than they would in other parts of the country. For example, I pay my handyman and gardener very well and good cleaners get paid a premium too.

I feel though that in reality the heart of the argument isn't really about this but is instead about local people that have grown up in a lovely area feeling that they should have some automatic entitlement to stay and raise their own families there.

Honestly for me personally it's not about the local beauty but having the network of family close by which is often needed for people working in lower paid jobs.

These threads always go the same way and no one has a suitable answer and I am not sure there is a solution. Yes the homes will be bought up by people who are willing to pay the price and feel they work hard and deserve to live here and in the meantime we will watch this space to see what happens with the supermarket employees, fisherman, factory works etc who can't work from home and are even priced out of the rental market.

No, you don't get it. There is not sufficient housing to meet the total level of demand. That demand is driven by local people, people from outside the local area that want to live there and people that want second homes for whatever reason.

You believe that the current community that lives there should be priortised which inevitably would limit the ability of outsiders to move there. So by sheer luck of circumstance, a child born in Cornwall will be offered assistance to live in a beautiful area whilst a child born in Croydon will have very little prospect of ever living in Cornwall, no matter how much they love the area. Do you believe in other forms of privilege being passed down generations?

A community changing and newcomers joining is not the same as a community being destroyed. How closed minded!

@Bumpitybumper you have a handyman and a gardener, cleaners are well paid, students do all the menial work and you have little sympathy for families and communities being separated. You totally live in a parallel universe.

I feel though that in reality the heart of the argument isn't really about this but is instead about local people that have grown up in a lovely area feeling that they should have some automatic entitlement to stay and raise their own families there. I have very limited sympathy with this outlook because like I stated earlier, many of us did not have the good fortune to be raised in such a beautiful places and actually if we work hard and earn enough, why shouldn't we be able to live in a beautiful area? If the locals want affordable housing then I can list a whole series of towns and places in the UK (including the one I was born in) that can offer this but I don't suppose that is quite as appealing. Strange that....

I agree with this.

DH and I plan to move to Cornwall when the dc's have left home (from the north).

Are you saying we shouldn't be allowed to live in one of our preferred (desirable) locations if we can afford it? We shouldn't move to Cornwall as we are displacing people who's families have lived there for 500 years?

Surely you realise at base level this is an utterly ridiculous and entitled attitude?

I would love to know where these HMO are going to suddenly spring up from? A large number of rentals are being sold to become Air BnBs.

I was listening to a social worker in London say that over half of children in London don’t travel over 2 miles away from home in their summer holidays. That debunks the idea that the city is teeming with libraries and universities just waiting for children to walk in. The nearest library to me is 3 miles away which in London terms is far away when you’ve no car and the bus is £3 return. That might as well be 30 miles if your parents are also uneducated and possibly don’t speak English.

No, I live in the same universe as you.

As mentioned upthread, my wider family has been geographically separated many times either because members could no longer afford to live in desirable places or because members have tried to better their lot by moving to more economically prosperous areas. Of course, everyone would ideally like to live near their family and friends but many many people don't have that privilege. This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. You believe people should be entitled to live in the community they grew up in near their family, irrespective of the push/pull economic factors that influence us all and affect every aspect of our lives. I believe (and through lived experience know) it's a privilege to do this.

You are trying to portray me as the one with unrecognised privilege whilst ironically you are fighting for unearned privilege yourself.

I wouldn’t. You’ll be chased out with pitchforks.

Listen to yourself, you sound deranged! This is a free country, people can go where they want.

I wouldn’t. You’ll be chased out with pitchforks.

No but I guarantee at some point they will be sat in an understaffed restaurant with the owner moaning how they can't get the staff.

@Bumpitybumper You are so wild of the mark, please don't tell my I don't understand the community I live in, so so condescending. It is very beautiful to be sure but it isn't all Doc Martin.

This thread is generally not about people moving to the area to live. It is about 2nd homes that stand empty for 50 weeks a year, it is about wealthy elites who buy holiday lets as investments and rent them out on Air BnB while serving section 21 notices on the previous tenants.

Demand can be managed, it's just that local and national councillors and MPs have vested interests in the status quo. Solutions are pretty simple - 10% property value tax on all non primary domicile homes (nationwide but to local authority). Compulsory seizure/sale of non registered property (nationwide but to local authority). Full council tax on holiday lets or they attract business rates.

@Tryhard40 you need to educate yourself on sustainable communities, please don't come here thinking the locals are entitled for wanting a home for their children.

I repeat there are plenty of homes to meet local demand and those wishing to move here on a permanent basis, but holiday lets and 2nd homes in particular are destroying local communities. Be careful what you wish for @Tryhard40 .

No but I guarantee at some point they will be sat in an understaffed restaurant with the owner moaning how they can't get the staff.

Where we live in a landlocked northern city this is a problem too so...meh. May as well not be served quickly by the sea!

I think if you take local to mean someone that lives and works in a community, then it's obvious why second home / holiday home ownership in large quantities is problematic.

Yes I concede that nobody has a right to live anywhere just because they were born there. But the already desperate situation of housing is only being made worse by large amounts of stock being taken out of circulation for general living.

As someone pointed out, the people that work in the lowest paid jobs (which are vital for a functioning society) need somewhere to live. Community is really important and that's what is being lost. It's more than just economics, it's the very heart of what is needed to make an area thrive.