Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

"The wellies that cost more than my own car."

Oh, grow up. Got no idea why the inhabitants of the South West think they have a god given right to live in the same place for 500 years. People get priced out of London more, not less, than Cornwall. But just get on with it rather than endless complaining.

My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer.

I’m interested by this comment-when was this?

Lots of my family members went to grammar schools. There was no tutoring for any of us (including my parents/grandparents) until my own kids sat the test in the last 20 years. For me/those older than me, it was just a low key test, children sat in their own primary school.

As much as I understand your issue, you say you got eleven a star or a grade GCSEs. But couldn’t go to the grammar, was there no way to get three decent a levels at your secondary school and go to any uni? Is it totally failing and no one achieved three a levels at a pass? You skim over this totally.

I'm in Cornwall and in both my current and previous workplace we have difficulties recruiting skilled, experienced staff because it is so expensive to live here and pay in my line of work isn't great. I heard last week of a chap who'd come down to work on a major construction project who'd had to sleep in a tent for the summer because there was no accommodation available anywhere and rentals were getting 60+ applications for every house that came on the market. Yet I also hear of people buying two or three properties to use as holiday homes.

To whoever asked about voting down here - when I was a kid, Cornwall was either Liberal or Labour. Since then, many people have retired down here and brought their right wing tendencies with them. Disaffected young people don't bother to vote, but older people do, hence the county turning blue in 2010. However, Penryn voted in a Green councillor last year, so perhaps the tide is turning. I live in hope.

I feel like it's too late to do anything about it. To change the situation would require government will, but they've all got their snouts in the trough, so why would they change it?

I’m southern. I’ve bought homes in Norfolk. Your narrative is familiar and it’s the most common complaint with locals. Rich southerners taking housing stock and out-pricing future generations.

I’ve never seen locals at any of the open houses I’ve attended. They’re mostly developers because people don’t want to renovate old cottages.

When speaking to estate agents younger generations want: off street parking, right to buy, entirely modern houses with building guarantees and the ability to choose new everything and not have to worry.

People like me who want to convert traditional buildings are providing a service and it has a value. It’s a labour of love and it’s very costly rehabilitating buildings. It revitalises rural communities that are losing inhabitants in their droves.

I notice you don’t have an issue with the land barons - the landed gentry who own so much housing stock.

I almost bought a cottage off one of the Suffields (Gunton Estate in Norfolk). In exchange of paperwork it came to light that this person owned over 1,000 pieces of property in the surrounding villages. This person was a lesser family member and I can only imagine how much real estate the entire clan owns.

Lord and Lady Clinton who kept generations of your family on the breadline and yet you speak of them with fondness…

@starlingdarling yes, you’re right. I’ve just been sitting here scratching my arse for the last decade rather than trying to look for a good job. Beyond patronising 🙄

dubyalass · 04/05/2022 22:53

To whoever asked about voting down here - when I was a kid, Cornwall was either Liberal or Labour.

That's not true....in the 21 General elections since 1950. The Conservatives have been the largest party (by vote percentage) in all but 4. The Labour party has - in that time - never held more than one of the five (6 since 2010) parliamentary seats in Cornwall.

The housing badly needs tackling. I am also in Devon. It should be mandatory to apply for planning permission to turn a permanent residence into a holiday home, even temporarily. And there should be limits on the numbers of holiday homes granted in each place. Places where there is tourist accommodation designated already by the planning system such as holiday parks would be exempt but their beds would count towards the limit for the area.

Where I live businesses are struggling to recruit cleaners, baristas, retail, restaurant staff that support the tourist trade. Some places have closed down because of this. But also skilled professionals are turning down job offers because they cannot find anywhere to rent or buy. That’s worrying when the school doesn’t have enough staff or the doctors surgery can’t recruit new GPs, or your child’s nursery can’t get qualified staff and you lose your childcare.

I moved to Cornwall 15 years ago (from the Midlands). I moved here for a 'better quality of life'. And in many ways that's what I've got. We thought it would be a good place to raise children, and it is. Rubbish schools is the biggest negative in that regard though.

There are 4 local secondary schools to us (when I say local, they're all about 10 miles away in different directions). Three of them have GCSE results 10% below the national average. So, statistically every child underachieves by about one grade in every GCSE they take. The best school is just about on the national average, but of course that's totally over subscribed. There are no grammar schools in Cornwall, but it is possible to go to the ones in Plymouth. Just that getting to them is impractical.

Housing in particular is reaching breaking point. The coastal/touristy areas are predominantly second homes as the locals are priced out. This then puts pressure on the non touristy areas (typically inland), pushing prices up there too. People are being evicted because landlords want to cash in on the big house price increases. AirBnB is bad enough, but 2nd homes that aren't let out are even more damaging - at least the holiday lets bring lots of holiday makers in, who spend well (at least that's injecting cash into the local economy).

The house price to earnings ratio stats mask the true reality of the poverty levels in Cornwall. There are quite a few very wealthy residents, and a huge number of very poor, poverty stricken ones. When you average things out, it looks very average, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 'average' people/families in Cornwall. Public sector jobs are some of the best paid, most desirable roles here, much more favourable than in other parts of the country. Also, because of the way the stats are skewed, Cornwall gets put as a medium priority for Levelling Up funding, way below a lot of other, less deprived overall areas.

What tends to happen is that most of the smart kids move away at 18 (typically they go off to uni and then get graduate jobs elsewhere - there are practically no graduate jobs in Cornwall, and not that much skilled stuff at all). The ones who stick around are the ones that flunked school or just never had a chance due to being raised in poverty. And the cycle is self perpetuating. The ones who do move away can rarely afford to relocate back down here until retirement.

As an emmet, I have to say that I've never had an issue with animosity from the locals, or been treated as an outsider. If you get involved within the community, make an effort to integrate and fit in, you quickly get accepted. Conversely, I've seen incomers get alienated by the locals, those who display a superiority complex, and look down their nose at the 'backwards, inbred' yokels.

I think the geography of the place is a major factor behind the issues - everything is just so spread out down here. I was spoilt living in the midlands - good transport network (roads and public transport), most facilities within easy reach. Down here it's hours drive to the nearest hospital, the nearest supermarket is a 25 mile round trip, secondary school is a half hour coach ride. Public transport is almost non existent (I think we get two buses a day stop here). If you don't have a car, it's very isolating.

The only other place that's kind of comparable to Cornwall is probably the more rural parts of Scotland. But of course they benefit from Barnett formula which makes a big difference.

Students don't have to study and live at home - most students take loans to facilitate them attending uni and there are grants for those form low income households.

There are also transport schemes (and bursaries etc for low income households) to allow children to attend college and school.

I am not suggesting that in the past what you have described wasn't a problem but the support is now there for those from a low income if they want it.

I moved away from where I was born and brought up - I had nothing when I moved. A lot of people have to do that to get on in life and improve their lot. My DS has moved from where he was born and brought up and is now living in London. There is nothing stopping young people in the SW doing the same.

The issue of not having any young people left though, and the housing crisis in the SW is very real and a complex problem to manage but agree something needs to be done - it needs a lot of investment (oops to the cornish voting for brexit as the EU used to give them a lot of money I understand - shot themselves in the foot there) and control of house ownership most likely.

As others have said though the issue isn't just in the SW - there are lots and lots of deprived areas across the country where young people really struggle and have few opportunities, all with their own unique issues and challenges.

Lots of rubbish there's better opportunities in London if poor. You try going to university of one of 80,000 children in London in homeless slum temp. Lots in one room sharing bathroom and kitchen with strangers. All family in one mould covered room.

More opportunities for joining gang and getting stabbed or prison for stabbing someone than university.

That's just the ones allowed to stay in London. Loads of London homeless sent away far away Birmingham or even further so far from family, no support and not even secure housing. Just 1 or 2 year private rent usually slum. That's just mainly if children. No children and streets or slum temp.

You think bad where you are. Waiting lists 10 years for social housing in London. Lots of people can't even get on list including domestic violence victims.

You think it's so good being poor in London, move there. You find out quickly reality of housing crisis and poverty there.

There's universities in London but how does that help London poor who being banished 100s miles from London.

Disgusting to think you have it worse. Problems everywhere including your area but London hell for poor. Support services very bad for vulnerable. There's domestic violence service with closed wait list for one year and another one with 8 week wait.

Look at how many domestic violence murders and also gang crime stabbings in London. You think good opportunities for poor in London? Massive ignorance.

You ignoring it's a fact with evidence that London housing problems worst in country. Doesn't mean not bad in other place but London worse than everywhere else.

The pensioner riding bus all day cos cant afford heating and only eating meal a day and you think London poor have it better. You have no clue.

Can fully relate. Same happening here in Wales.

Great post OP. My DH grew up on free school meals in London but was able to go to a RG university in London and live at home to save up a deposit while working in the city. It is the reason why we could buy in London and have not been priced out by landlords and investors.

Well said

There are a lot of similarities to the Lake District where I live; we have 80% second homes. Communities lose their critical mass at that level and can't function. Meanwhile we have a "recruitment crisis" in hospitality jobs - hardly surprising when the accommodation is all filled by tourists.

But the Lake District has a 'local occupancy ' rule making many houses unable to be sold as holiday/second homes?
Does Cornwall not have a similar law and if not, why not?

You think Grenfell victims had good opportunities in London?

You think even if someone going to university good opportunities if poor. They can live at home? Studying in slum temp hostel or B&B or slum rent place that they may get evicted from in middle of studies and sent 100s miles away from London.

Lots of university people don't get jobs paying well. You try renting on minimum wage in London. Lots of people on minimum wage in London.

London has one of worse housing crisis in world.

You say about your privilege that London poor don't have. You had privilege of near family 100s of years. London poor been forced out of London many years.

You think it's bad where you are. Look at difference in wait time for social housing. Your people in homeless b&bs and homeless temp don't have to stay as long as in London. Years some Londoners have to do.

Things maybe bad where you are but nothing compared to London and been going on many more years in London.

You think it's so good though so move there. See how much opportunity poor have. Opportunity to be homeless for years and years in homeless temp or sent away from family 100s of miles. Opportunity to be in dangerous condition social housing after 10 year wait, somewhere like Grenfell.

Says everything about people on here if they saying refugees have privilege.

The person whose family had to flee as refugees who said they were Jewish. Majority of Jewish refugees that came 100-150 years ago were same as OP family. Worse I think, cos lots were from Russia where wasn't labourers, they were serfs. Maybe similar. Definitely not privileged.

No refugee is privileged. Feels unbelievable people would even say that.

People get priced out of London but many of them end up in places like Manchester and Bristol or even a commuter town in the SE so not the end of the world. My DH's 2 sisters were priced out I suppose but now live in Tel Aviv near the beach and are happy. They are also the great grand children of Jewish refugees who escaped being drafted by the Tsar's army/Poland and they originated from the East End...however they have been homeowners for the last 3 generations so have been able to settle in London. I suppose Jewish people have different problems; its not so much the house prices as the anti semitism people face that prompts them to leave the country..though many are also affected by house prices and arguably they do have community infrastructure that is not easily replicated outside London/Manchester- synagogue, kosher bakeries, kosher supermarkets, Eruv, schools.

I am interested to know where people do move to if they are priced out of Cornwall and also OP, what attracts you to stay in Cornwall when wages are low and the prices are high? People outside London always tell non millionaire Londoners to move out for a 'better quality of life' but most of us have family here and also for me, it's not that we cant afford it, it's just a question of buying a flat instead of a house but we also don't need to own a car and can plough all the money in the mortgage while earning London salaries so that is my justification for living in London as a non millionaire.

London doesn't have that law and you all know about the Russian oligarchs and other rich people buying lots of London homes but you think it's better for Londoners. A few not affordable help to buy too expensive for most Londoners sometimes have temporary local connection requirement but cos too expensive for most Londoners, it's only 6 months then sold to anyone.

@nosafeguardingadults that PP like my DH is not a refugee, she is the descendant of refugees..DH even has an anglicised name so no one even knows he is descended from russian and polish Jewish people if not in the know..

Jewish people do face different problems also with housing because we too need to live in a community with Jewish infrastructure which is often in pretty expensive areas and there is also the anti semitism dimension. But none of this is because their forefathers were refugees. More recent immigrants like Pakistani and Bangladeshi face the immigrant penalty more, they live in the east end where Jewish people used to live before they moved to the north London suburbs and part of their poverty is because their families are not established and often still doing gig economy jobs in London. However I do know many who have prospered.

You're talking about priced out of buying. The ones who go to Manchester and Bristol.

I'm talking about the poor cos OP was. Londoners who are poor are forcibly moved out by councils when homeless. They get sent anywhere. Sometimes Birmingham sometimes Bradford sometimes Gillingham and sometimes somewhere else.

No choice where sent if homeless and not nice bought place. Sent out of London to temporary private rental or stuck in London or outside for years in slum homeless temp.

You don't seem to recognise how unusual and how privileged it is to stay in the same place for centuries on end.

Tell that to the Palestinians. Or maybe a girl trying to attend school in Afghanistan.

As for students getting tuition loans and jobs, I don't think people realise just how remote Cornwall is in terms of transport.

There are no motorways and only one diesel train line.

Most students can go home for the odd weekend, SW students can't, or at least can't easily. London to Truro is a 5 hour train journey, it also costs a fortune.

Student loans don't often pay for uni accommodation so you either have to work or you move into a shared house.

I've lived in deprived areas, I've lived in areas of contrast but Cornwall is different (I can't speak for Devon).

I do think people should pay council tax on holiday homes, in fact I think there should be a surcharge, a holiday home is a luxury,it is even more so when the people living next door can't afford to buy a home at all.

You say not end of world if Londoners priced out so no end of world if Cornwall people priced out.

You say rents high and wages low in Cornwall. Loads and loads of Londoners on minimum wage. You compare rent in Cornwall with it in London.