Mum's moving- Hoarder alert

[Scantilydoesit]

My mum has a large 4 bed house in a smallish town in Somerset.
She's lived there about 15 years and stayed after my dad died.
Both of them were (mum is) awful hoarders.
Her house is rammed top to bottom with stuff.
She's75 and doesn't have good sight and I'm absolutely dreading having to help (it will be me as the others live a long way away).
Her house is also very dirty and dusty. She cooks all the time but never cleans and there are splashes of stuff over the kitchen that have been there forever. Crumbs are all over the floor every time I visit and I just find it incredibly depressing.
I try to clean when I go, only for it to return to it's previous state in about 2 hours after she's cooked again.
However, If I dare mention anything, she goes on the defensive. My sister has totally given up and hardly goes to see her because of this.

She will not throw anything away, nor will she have anyone in to help her.
I casually mentioned today that she might look at storage options while selling the house.
Her reply was that no way, she can't afford that and people want to see a homely home!
I suggested she maybe put away some books and ornaments but again that was a no and so I left it.
The decor is all very old fashioned with homemade heavy curtains everywhere, reds, greens, yellows ....and all sorts of odd bits of non matching furniture.

So, how do you think the house will sell?
Will people see past it?
I know it's awful but I'm hoping they don't and I can't bear the thought of it all.

My own house had awful colours too but I saw past it . However, it was clean with minimal furniture when we viewed. Personally, I could never buy up something like my mum's as I'd not know what wa hiding under the fridge. (there is no way she doesn't have mice and when I have to stay there I lie awake all night listening for them!!).

@HavelockVetinari the only help was students with bin liners and told to never be so silly again. I've no money to afford any kind of counselling, and I've no help at all now with MH or physical needs. The NHS/LA don't recognise it as an issue other than "being filthy and disgusting" (how it was written up), them throwing everything away without any support (when all I really had was a few items on the floor - I'm in a single tiny room, not even room for a wardrobe which doesn't help either) anyway it made the problem worse as it was devastating losing essential things like photos i can't replace from the 70s and my birth certificate/passport which I can't get replaced because all my documents were chucked, pots, pans, bedding (all of which I used daily and were fine). I was left with nothing but a shopping list. There was no working with me just two students turning up shoving their way in with packs of bin liners and taking everything I owned away.

I won't let anyone in again or even try.

Most people don't understand that's all LA/NHS can offer - students and bin liners and they call that "specialist support". Zero support. They didn't even tell me they were coming (which is how it works). All it does is make things even worse.

I wonder how many have asked for help and ended up like me - much worse than before because this is all they will do and I've no money to pay for any actual help, and because everything you own gets thrown, literally you must then go and buy loads of new stuff!

Becca, that is horrifying.

I watch hoarding programmes, and the hoarders' need for physical objects are sensitively addressed. Like in Stacey Solomons's recent decluttering programme.

Hi OP,
You have a MUCH MUCH bigger problem than your mother or her hoarding.
You can't say 'no' to people - you feel guilty and hate causing upset.
You have lent out money repeatedly and not got it back - when you are a single parent with children to support.
It seems to me that it is urgent and imperative that you prioritise yourself and get the help you need, so that you become strong enough to put yourself first - this is what your children NEED you to do.
I wish you well.

I do feel for you. My Mum was a hoarder because as a child she hardly had anything during the war. She refused point blank to declutter and when she moved I found about 100 empty egg boxes, about 1000 tupperware boxes without lids - all treasure to her, she was saving them for 'just in case'.

Now I'm older I'm decluttering so my kids don't have the problems I had with my Mum . If you can get the rest of your family on board to help your Mum say goodbye to some things.

@Scantilydoesit

Thanks SSloou, Spider and ABC, It's an awful thing when I'm already 40 myself. I feel really stupid and embarrassed that I'm still in this damm situation. Our whole family was just some kind of show to the outside world. I can't stand drama as I'm an introvert and I'd be so much happier rid of it all.

I've been reading your comments with interest. . .. and a lot of sympathy. What you are describing sounds very like narcissism to me. (Not all narcissists hoard but clearly your mother does.)

What screams to me most loudly of narcissism is:

1. your mother's habitual bad-mouthing of you to various people she has built up around her as a kind of defence. Suggestible people who appear to buy into her lying and her misrepresentations without ever questioning whether or not she is telling the truth. People who are willing to then contact YOU in order to berate you for not helping enough, for not being loyal enough, etc etc. The terminology for such people is "flying monkeys."

2. This comment "Our whole family was just some kind of show to the outside world. I can't stand drama. . .and I'd be so much happier rid of it all."

Narcissists aren't interested in genuine relationships, they are only bothered about image. How other people perceive them. The opinion of virtual strangers means far more to them than the wellbeing of their partners and children. And they totally love a drama, any drama as long as they are at the centre.

Given all this, your mother is not going to change. She won't start to listen to your point of view and start to make some changes because that is not how such people operate. Whatever you do will be wrong in her eyes. Sometimes she will appear to be nice to you but only because she wants something. It is all manipulation and she will continue bad-mouthing you to people gullible enough to accept what she's saying.

My own parents were the same/ my mother is still alive and still is. It is heartbreaking because you probably only want a genuine relationship with your mother like many other people have with THEIR mothers. But someone like this is not going to change. Put yourself and your own immediate family first, you and they are what matter.

There are some good resources online about narcissism. Especially the ones focussing on the experiences of people unfortunate enough to have a narcissist or two in their own family. (Ones written by psychiatrists tend to understate the sheer misery such people inflict on those close to them. Even going as far to suggest, in some cases, that you can try and improve your relationship with them. It is just not possible to do and professionals ought to know this!)

For what it's worth, I'm older than you and I still struggle with it all.

Switch that feeling of being stupid and embarrassed to “I just tried to hard for too long” - always look around difficult people to see who else they have in their life - is they have burnt many bridges and you are the last man standing then know that your boundaries are weak.

I suspect that it suits your siblings and any friends / acquaintances she has left to burden and judge you.

Your DCs are the only ones that matter - when she drains your time, money and headspace - know that this should / could be going to your DCs and making your own lives more calm, peaceful and fun. Choose that instead.

@TheSilveryPussycat thats not the reality, that's what happens when you pay privately for help and support, or, apparently go on a TV programme.

The reason I replied to this thread was to make that point. All social services will do is throw everything the OPs mum owns in the bin. That's it. Zero help beyond that.

Sorry, likely will do.

@Scantilydoesit

💐you've been controlled & manipulated your whole life. It's turned you into a people pleaser who can't say no & you've done things to your detriment!

Right now, THIS, is your opportunity to say 'NO MORE'.

YOu need to put yourself first!! You & your kids.

I wonder if your mum has been honest with the EA? I seriously doubt it. It's a sellers market & the EA have no need to BIL in viewing of people who haven't yet sold, let alone those unlikely to sell

Anyway, time to practice saying 'No, you can't, that doesn't work fir me. You're welcome to stay x nights'. (That suit YOU).

Do you speak to/message your other 3 siblings. Would be interesting to see what they've been told AND to put them in the actual picture.

Becca I'm sure you are right about professional declutters and TV programmes. (I also think that most, if not all, start hoarding again.) Was just meaning to say that there are other ways. Horrific that they did what they did to you.

I would be wanting to see SS's policy on house clearing. They surely don't intend that pots and pans etc are thrown away, or do they [angy]

You need to tell your mother "No!".
No she isn't going to be staying with your for a few weeks.
No her house is not 'tidy'
No if she is moving she can't keep all of her belongings backdated to 1970-something
No she is not going to 'pack her belongings herself' if and when she moves
No you didn't suggest to anyone that she moves, it's entirely her decision and idea

Picture the scene that you're telling a small child that they can't have something or do something and be the adult in that conversation. Except that you are the adult and your mother is the child. She is displaying very childish behaviour - throwing a tantrum if you suggest to throw out something that is old or dirty or past its use, and when you do, she still throws a tantrum. Stop feeding the bad behaviour. Ignore it. When she started having a go at you for throwing out the tea towel, you should have responded "No mum, it's not new. It's been used, it is covered in dried in food stains and is a health hazard. It's going in the bin and will be thrown out in the rubbish!"
So what if she is on the phone or saying to her friends how horrible you're being. You're not, you know that yet the thought of what some people you don't know is impacting on how you speak with your mother??
Time to dig deep and find that assertive bone that you say you don't have. It's there. We all have one. We just need to uncover it every once in a while.

Look is right. The people she is bad mouthing you to will know she lives in a hoarders house. My Father lived like this but he was lazy, has been single of over 40 years and didn’t do a thing around the house. Much easier to invite yourself around to other people’s houses for Xmas etc as it meant he didn’t have to make an effort. After many many years his 5 bed house was almost uninhabitable, a complete disgusting mess with rooms so full you couldn’t enter them. Old TV’s, clothes from his own Mother who had long since passed.

We got the fire service in but he didn’t take any notice. Eventually after many many years it got so overwhelming he asked me to help him clear it and move to a care home. I made it very clear that once I had started there was no going back. I live 2 hours away and hired specialist clearers. It took van after van and we booked him into a hotel. Even then he asked whether I got any money for his stuff......

You need to look after your own health and well being on this one and you set the ground rules otherwise leave them too it. They won’t be able to tackle it and might end up staying where they are. Do expect that to be the outcome

You won't change her OP, just step back. The advice to come up with a few techniques to avoid committing to a decision is good advice.

For heaven's sake don't let her come and stay with you, you will end up not being able to do your work. Just tell her maybe later.

Ultimately she is an adult and you are not responsible for her.

I agree with this. DM isn't a hoarder, though her flat is more cluttered than I am comfortable with. She is however very manipulative and as she gets older, it has been a hard lesson trying to become more assertive in the "parenting" role. I have always been a people pleaser and for yrs worried about what she was telling her friends. They have all got older, many moved away/ few have died, and almost all saw through her. Get your sibling on side as they are the important ones (took a few conversations with mine before we both realised that she was blaming each of us), and don't worry about her friends.

Sorry - my post was supposed to quote a PP. should say my DM

Start to emotionally detach from her in your own head. Visualise a bubble, suit of armour, moat that she is the other side of.

Know your triggers and how she makes you feel - then intercept your knee jerk impulses / urges / behaviours - so that you don’t say or do anything when triggered by her manipulation. Give time to let the feelings rise and slowly subside.

Then slowly withdraw physically - be less available. Be busy. Take time to respond to calls. If she asks you to do something practice saying “No” frequently - or if you do want to do something for her - deliberately kick it into the next week that she wants your favour so that she doesn’t hold all the power.

Slowly create distance and space.

As PP said just be vague and let this all drift along.

She doesn’t have the capacity to see it through. Sounds like her physical and mental health will more likely soon need assisted living. Maybe to let this play out until then which might be much sooner than you think.

[quote Becca19962014]@HavelockVetinari the only help was students with bin liners and told to never be so silly again. I've no money to afford any kind of counselling, and I've no help at all now with MH or physical needs. The NHS/LA don't recognise it as an issue other than "being filthy and disgusting" (how it was written up), them throwing everything away without any support (when all I really had was a few items on the floor - I'm in a single tiny room, not even room for a wardrobe which doesn't help either) anyway it made the problem worse as it was devastating losing essential things like photos i can't replace from the 70s and my birth certificate/passport which I can't get replaced because all my documents were chucked, pots, pans, bedding (all of which I used daily and were fine). I was left with nothing but a shopping list. There was no working with me just two students turning up shoving their way in with packs of bin liners and taking everything I owned away.

I won't let anyone in again or even try.

Most people don't understand that's all LA/NHS can offer - students and bin liners and they call that "specialist support". Zero support. They didn't even tell me they were coming (which is how it works). All it does is make things even worse.

I wonder how many have asked for help and ended up like me - much worse than before because this is all they will do and I've no money to pay for any actual help, and because everything you own gets thrown, literally you must then go and buy loads of new stuff![/quote]
That's awful, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

The NHS can and does offer CBT, but you'd need to get referred by your GP and there'll be a waiting list in many areas. It's worth doing though - you'll get to the front of the queue eventually, and it might really help you. Surely better than living in squalor for the rest of your life, unable to let anyone visit you?

A friend lives in a county that has a service available to assist hoarders, counselling, befriending etc. No pressure. I think it's run by their voluntary services. Might be worth looking on the net. However, covid has probably sucked up all volunteers so may have been withdrawn.

@HavelockVetinari

Only mindfulness available here now.

I'm not strong enough now physically or mentally to go through that again.

In my experience hoarders often do t recognise the impact their hoarding has on relationships and the people around them. Quite apart from the stress it puts on ones kids, we have friends whose next door neighbour was a severe hoarder. Council involvement resulted in repeated promises to sort and get rid of stuff, but nothing really happened. Her house went up in flames and our neighbours were very lucky not to lose theirs. Imagine losing your home and biggest financial asset because the person next door can’t part with their collection of old newspapers , flyers and other combustibles.

And this is why the fire service should be made aware that she is a hoarder.

Thank you everyone. I've just got back in from a day out and just catching up with all the new posts.
I know I have a problem myself Bean which I desperately need to sort out. I know I am enabling all this because I can't say no.
Turquoise, I agree with the narcissism post and I see lots of traits of this.
I believe my father was one too. They always came first, no matter what us kids needed. It was not a loving home. I don't remember feeling safe and loved. We were one family to the outside world and a different family behind closed doors. EA also and punished quite severely for minor things. For example (one of many), I remember when I was young my brother pushed me into one of my dad's bushes and I was slippered really bad because I broke some of the stems.

Need to detach emotionally. I've looked a bit into negative emotional bonds and ties and I think it's something like this. Very hard to break away from.

I'm still hoping that it just doesn't go anywhere. It will be interesting to see what the EA says next week to her. I'm just keeping schtum for now and gritting my teeth.
Whatabout, that's a huge worry. The fire service visited our street a year or so ago and went door to door checking everyone had fire alarms and giving them out for free. I wonder if they could disguise it as something like this. She's be in her element to have the fire service around and be offering tea and cake to all of them.

And I meant physical punishment up there. Shoe or slipper.

Yes, I think a visit from the fire service, disguised as “they are visiting all pensioners in the area” if needs be would be a good idea.

The fire service honestly wouldn’t want to risk their health by eating or drinking in a house like this. I wore rubber gloves and a mask when I went into my Father’s house and this was pre COVID!

It sounds like attention seeking as well.