Mum's moving- Hoarder alert

[Scantilydoesit]

My mum has a large 4 bed house in a smallish town in Somerset.
She's lived there about 15 years and stayed after my dad died.
Both of them were (mum is) awful hoarders.
Her house is rammed top to bottom with stuff.
She's75 and doesn't have good sight and I'm absolutely dreading having to help (it will be me as the others live a long way away).
Her house is also very dirty and dusty. She cooks all the time but never cleans and there are splashes of stuff over the kitchen that have been there forever. Crumbs are all over the floor every time I visit and I just find it incredibly depressing.
I try to clean when I go, only for it to return to it's previous state in about 2 hours after she's cooked again.
However, If I dare mention anything, she goes on the defensive. My sister has totally given up and hardly goes to see her because of this.

She will not throw anything away, nor will she have anyone in to help her.
I casually mentioned today that she might look at storage options while selling the house.
Her reply was that no way, she can't afford that and people want to see a homely home!
I suggested she maybe put away some books and ornaments but again that was a no and so I left it.
The decor is all very old fashioned with homemade heavy curtains everywhere, reds, greens, yellows ....and all sorts of odd bits of non matching furniture.

So, how do you think the house will sell?
Will people see past it?
I know it's awful but I'm hoping they don't and I can't bear the thought of it all.

My own house had awful colours too but I saw past it . However, it was clean with minimal furniture when we viewed. Personally, I could never buy up something like my mum's as I'd not know what wa hiding under the fridge. (there is no way she doesn't have mice and when I have to stay there I lie awake all night listening for them!!).

Does she not need to sell hers before estate agents will let her put in an offer on something else? Not sure on the market where you are but around here that’s definitely the case.
If so, could you get someone round to value it and ask their advice on making it sellable in front of her so it’s not you being the bad guy and making her get rid of stuff?

I feel for you OP. My MIL is the same and the house is becoming a death trap due to both how much stuff is crammed into it but also the fact she’s spent all of her money for the last 30 years on buying more stuff and not a penny on keeping the house in good condition. DP frequently offers to pay for a skip or a decluttering service but she won’t hear of it and says she loves it all.

I have managed this twice with my MIL.

We just took over.

She was not letting anyone into the house - had no heating or hot water. She was an alcoholic living in squalor with 10 stray cats. However she would dress up in fur coats, glam clothes and jewelry. She managed to lose keys etc and lock herself in.

We played to her delusions of grandeur - drove her out to see some luxury new build rentals near us - she was so wowed she signed on the dotted line there and then. She went back packed 2 suitcases, move the next week and never looked back.

She behaved herself in the rental as we had a cleaner in twice a week and the land lord was next door.

I then re-homed the stray cats and just cleared the whole house recycled what we could, skipped the rest - Renotkill do squalor jobs like this - then had the whole place rennovated and sold. She never ever asked about the home or the contents.

At the same time I found her a small bungalow to buy - I had this totally rennovated - she was quite excited choosing curtains etc.

She lived there for 7 years - trashed it, acquired more stray cats to piss and shit everywhere. She then got dementia and went into a home.

So I had yet another of her shit pits to clear out which I did, redecorate and sell.

She was never, ever going to change - so we just took over.

I am comfortable that she had the best outcome and didnt have an accident like the poor PP friend. But sometimes you just need to over ride if you can.

That's ok Frumpety. Yep, unfortunately. This is why she relies on me.
I'd imagine so Fizzy. She has the EA going around next week. I might be able to give them a cheeky call beforehand if I know which ones it is.
My mum spilt water into an electrical socket a few weeks back and called me saying all the lights had gone off. Someone went around and found that she'd tipped a glass of water off her bedside cabinet and it had got into a socket and tripped the electric!

My neighbours Parents were like this and she basically hired a skip and then she filled it and asked for same day collection and delivery of another one - she filled about 6 skips of just general junk and took no end to the charity shop as-well - it was very very difficult;

A skip or 6 could be the answer perhaps - neighbours parents went to siblings for afew days and barely even noticed x

Ssslou, that much have been so much work for you though and money!

Tiredmum, weird thing is, she does notice stuff. I threw an ancient, tea stained tea towel away once when she wasn't looking and all hell let loose! I throw away old dishcloths that are covered in food and grime and she says 'that's new!'

God my opposite neighbours house was like this
Long story but he hasn’t lived there for almost a year and the family were regularly taking bin bags of clothes and personal stuff out of the house over last summer .
Once I saw them with a flat back truck taking furniture so I assumed he had left only for them to return a month or two later and remove more stuff .
Then the council turned up did work on it out in a new kitchen & bathroom so I thought ok that’s it he’s gone now .
Then last month a skip was filled 4 flat back trucks and a scrap metal bloke came to take away even more stuff .
Being nosey I looked through the window yesterday and there is still stuff in the house
I swear if any wants to know where that lost plane is the one that disappeared a few years ago I reckon it’s in my neighbours garden .
The amount of rubbish that came out was unreal you couldn’t really identify what it was .
It’s been a year at the end of the month he hasn’t set foot in the house and it’s still not been cleared out properly .
The strangest thing is that it’s a tiny tiny 2bed house like a tiny miners cottage terrace house I can’t figure out how he’s managed to get so much crap in it .

I would assume she is not going to move
Dont ferry her about looking. "We will look once your house is sold,"
Book 3 estate agents. Listen to what they say. Then put is straight back to her. "You will need to put it on for X pounds" et c etc.
I have this with DHS family. They will never move. If we outlive them, the estate will be paying for specialist cleaners and house clearance.

@Scantilydoesit

Tiredmum, weird thing is, she does notice stuff. I threw an ancient, tea stained tea towel away once when she wasn't looking and all hell let loose! I throw away old dishcloths that are covered in food and grime and she says 'that's new!'

I think what worked for us was out of sight out of mind - there would have been ZERO chance to go into her house and sort t when she was there. It was quite a cathartic experience for me - I enjoyed getting rid of all her shit as we had to watch and wait patiently and silently or years as she was resistant and volatile.

Is your Mum moving a signifcant distance? This helped us - even though it was only 10 miles from her home - it was a new more attractive life for her.

I would also be looking medium term with regards to health and lousing needs - so do this strategically. Your DM falling out with her church might indicate onset of dementia. All of the signs were there for us much earlier than we noticed.

Financially she had cash savings - but we also need to preserve her equity in both homes for the move and her care home fees. The work did and clearing costs were a tiny fraction of the 100K hit another PP suggested would be the likely hit of selling a home in a bad state.

Additionally the housing market - especially in places like Somerset - is on fire...dont let an EA undervalue it by taking advantage of your DM - just clearing it wll be fine - people are happy to take on a project.

On reflection both house moves and clearing were v empowering and satisfying for me personally compared to the decades of stasis, worry, resistance and frustration we endured.

@Scantilydoesit

Llikk, yes, I was trying to be very careful with what I said to her. Her rooms are packed with stuff. One bedroom has heaps of papers and music all across the floor so you can't get in it. Others have clothes, books piled up so it's difficult to open doors. The kitchen is big and has a lot of surface space. You cannot see any of that surface.

I'm sure there are many worse but I think it will be extremely difficult.

This is going to be very difficult for potential purchasers to see past, if it stays as is. So can you, as you’ve said, speak to the EAs in advance of them coming, and get them onside, if you think she’d listen to them if they told her rooms needed clearing in advance of it going on the market.

Sssloou, if you don't mind me asking, what signs did you see?
Personally, I think it's because she's not getting much attention at church atm because of Covid and she likes to be in the limelight. But what you say is definitely possible.
She does repeat the same things on the phone to me very often.

Elizabeth, How much furniture do you think is acceptable?
All the rooms are big but pretty much all floor space is taken up.
For example in the dining room, she has this massive table which takes up the whole length of the room with 6 normal chairs and two big ones at each end (you just just squeeze in to sit at the ends), a piano, a big dresser, a keyboard type piano and a bookcase. You literally have to squeeze through the room. The other rooms are the same. There's very little floor space left anywhere.

My mum hoarded and checked the bins each day to see if anything has been thrown away....it was all very depressing...a nice 4 bed house full up of junk and old magazines and newspapers...I gave up trying to clear it out while she was alive as everything became an arguement...hoarders are very defensive and all items are seen to be useful...mum even told me that she hid money among the papers to stop me clearing them...so later i checked each paper and magazine before chucking them and found nothing !

I would step back and focus on counselling for yourself. We've just sold our house and the Estate Agents refused to arrange viewings until we had a mortgage in principle and an offer on our own. TBH, if the hoarding is that bad, they will struggle to even take photos.

It sounds like she wants to move to get more attention from you, as she no longer gets it from her church. I can also guarantee that if she does sell up, the next house will end up the same (or worse), with the added bonus of failing health, for you to take care of.

You are a single parent; your kids come first. Save your energy for the bigger battles ahead and rope your siblings in, so you don't carry all of the burden. It's no coincidence that only one of the five of you remains within hailing distance!

@TheABC

I would step back and focus on counselling for yourself. We've just sold our house and the Estate Agents refused to arrange viewings until we had a mortgage in principle and an offer on our own. TBH, if the hoarding is that bad, they will struggle to even take photos.

It sounds like she wants to move to get more attention from you, as she no longer gets it from her church. I can also guarantee that if she does sell up, the next house will end up the same (or worse), with the added bonus of failing health, for you to take care of.

You are a single parent; your kids come first. Save your energy for the bigger battles ahead and rope your siblings in, so you don't carry all of the burden. It's no coincidence that only one of the five of you remains within hailing distance!

I agree with this. You need to think strategically and not paint yourself into a corner where you become her carer if that’s not what you want - and I would recommend prioritising yourself and your DCs.

It suited us to have my MIL near enough (but not too close) rather than my DH being stressed and dashing off for hours on end on a 20 mile round trip for the twice weekly “emergencies”.

It sounds like her MH and physical health are not great. She will likely decline. People who hoard don’t do self care - even taking medication etc is a battle. Have your medium term plans agreed and pencilled in with your siblings.

Early dementia signs for us were MIL repeating herself, being paranoid and aggressive about others (developed a pick on her own DD) and poor self care. All hard to attribute to dementia specifically - but you should appreciate that your DM already has an established MH issue (possible PD / anxiety / hoarding) and this will likely progressively decline. So look ahead and make sure you don’t take on anything that is unsustainable.

Other PPs are suggesting not supporting her in this move and maybe they have a point. Anything you do is likely to be enabling her issues but from my experience nothing is likely to happen as someone who can’t decide to throw away a newspaper doesn’t have the mental capacity to see through a house sale.

I’ve picked a random 4 bed house in Somerset from Rightmove, that I’d say probably reflects what most buyers expect to see.
I’ll PM it to you, as it’s probably unfair to link it on here.
Given what you’ve said. I think it will be quite tricky to achieve. Hence, if you could get the EA to deliver the message, they’re the expert, they see houses all the time, etc.. it might be easier coming from them.

Not unachievable though, if your Mum would agree. You’d get a house clearance company to get rid of the stuff that isn’t needed. And then hire a team of cleaners to do a full deep clean.
Is any of her existing furniture ok to use? (Assuming you could declutter)

@ElizabethTudor

Not unachievable though, if your Mum would agree. You’d get a house clearance company to get rid of the stuff that isn’t needed. And then hire a team of cleaners to do a full deep clean. Is any of her existing furniture ok to use? (Assuming you could declutter)

My experience is to get her out of the house and moved into temp rented to do the clear out and also the viewings. You won’t be able to do the clear out with her there and she will just mess it all up again for viewings especially as you suggested she has poor hygiene around cooking etc.

Yes, very good point there from sssloou

Tell her it can't all go. insist that when she moves she can only take 15 ornaments or 30 books or 75 this or 25 that. and tell her she needs to decide now.

Sadly, this just does not work. Late DM could not see why the contents of a four bedroom house would not fit into a 2 bed bungalow and could not throw anything away. Things like grandfather's electricity bills from 40 years earlier, a wardrobe full of clothes from the 1960s etc. DB hired a skip for the worst of the rubbish and got it in the neck.

The house will sell, but almost certainly at a much lower price that it would have been worth if it had been kept reasonably tidy and maintained.

Estate agents will tell you to declutter and slap on some emulsion, but with hoarders their houses are usually too far gone for this to be possible.

Sorry, I am no help to you, but can sympathise.

It will sell if the price is right.

I wouldn't stress yourself trying to change your DM, just sell as is.

I am a clean freak, but I have got enough brain cells in my head to realise that places can be transformed, and I personally would love to get a bargain and be able to put my own stamp on a house (as long as the place is emptied at some point!)

It will sell if price is right. We were looking to move to Somerset to be closer to my elderly parent but pretty much given up as housing market been so buoyant. I’m only worried about location really and there will be others like me.

Huge sympathy though, my Aunt and my Mum were hoarders. Mum not as bad as my Aunt as she had to deal with hers but bad enough and took weeks to sort.

It sounds as if there are lots of issues with your Mum and these will be ongoing for the rest of her life. My Mum had dementia’ and was really difficult. My GP told me to step back as my children wouldn’t thank me for it as the situation was making me ill. I had counselling in the end and kept saying how guilty I felt, hadn’t realised before. She asked ,e if it was my guilt to feel and most of the time it wasn’t.

For now I would step back and think about your boundaries. I think I’d let it play out with the estate agents for the moment. I’d also ‘be unwell’ mad not at her beck and call and if she needs help do t be the one to do it. Really hard to get people to accept help but it will be necessary at some point, now is a good time to start.

I don't see her moving. She won't let the stuff go. The agent won't be able to market it. She'll be given low offers.
You may need to back off now and say 'sure, I'll help you organise things once it is sold'. Make that your contribution at the moment.
The truth is that she should move into sheltered accommodation (for her own safety and nerds going forward). But she won't.
It's hard, but she has been like this all her life. It's who she is.

She won't change and you will only get further into her mess. Perhaps the only thing you could do is involve adult social services to come and assess because of her eyesight and change of circumstances.

I had a family member who was a hoarder. It was my fil partner. When he died she had to leave the (council) bungalow. I am eternally glad he died at the start of the pandemic which meant we didn't have to get involved with emptying the property.

My ex's nans house was a right state. The viewers were all warned beforehand, but there were so many that were keen as it was 50k less than the other houses in the street, and so was a bargain. They couldn't even view a couple of rooms as they were so full it was dangerous for them to enter.
There were dog turds on the carpet and it was running alive with mice and rats.

So if it's priced well it will sell, we thought it would go to a builder, but it actually went to a family and now they are sitting in a property that has risen in value by half a million pounds. Not bad in 7 years!