ds is not good at art - now becoming noticeable - help!!

[zebramummy]

i need a strategy to improve ds' mark-making asap per his nursery report.

i never meant to compare him to his class mates at nursery but their pictures appear to resemble trees, people etc. ds is 4.4 but his art skills have actually gone backwards if anything. he only brought one picture home this term and nothing of his has ever been put up for display at nursery (yes, i do this at home before you ask)

i was apparently so good at his age that my nursery school teacher (a trained artist herself) predicted that i would also become an artist one day (i did not do this though remained quite good). i don't expect him to be that good; just able enough to colour the right bits of the picture in suitable colours and try to keep within outlines. his interest in writing has gone the same way too.

is there anything i can do to remedy the situation? so far, i have made available to him every medium under the sun to try out his 'ideas' - finger paints, glitter glue, crayons, chalks, all manner of paper and card.

he loves playdough though uses it more for imaginative play rather than for model-making. likes gloop, clay, helping with cooking but has had no cross-impact.

i also sense that some of the posters are trying their best to paint me as the 'MN pushy mummy of the month' when the actual content of my posts do not indicate this. just because i am seeking advice behind the scenes, it does not mean that ds is st some kind of regimented home-schooling prog. infact he is none the wiser about my attempts to help in along in his art. i can pull that off - sorry if you cannot say the same for yourselves.

To the poster that asked yes I was talking about Drawing on the Right Side of the Brian' by Betty Edwards.

Edwards agrees that most view drawing as a magical ability that only a select few have and only a select few ever will have the skill.

She says that's because people don't understand how to learn how to draw or learn how to 'see' as she puts it. To learn how to perceive edges, spaces, relationships, lights and shadows and the whole.

When you learn how to draw you have to learn each component and then combine them into one process.

Some people pick this up naturally whereas others have to learn how to do this and put them all together. Thing is, everyone can do it!

What's really interesting about all of this OP etc (at least to me) is that because some can do something with little or not much training it doesn't mean others can't do it - and do it better in some cases - in time.

Carol Dweck explores all this and more in 'Mindsets'.

As she says - 'this is so important, because many, many people with the fixed mindset think that someone's early performance tells you all you need to know about their talent and their future'.

How would you know how widely read a teacher was or how many languages they spoke?

If you've come across quite so many bad primary school teachers, doesn't it suggest that primary school teaching is rocket science (or, OK, not actually rocket science but at least one heck of a lot more difficult than you seem to think it is)? Otherwise all these "mediocre" people wouldn't be so "rubbish" at it. After all, a mediocre person could go into rocket science and be rubbish at it, and that is rocket science . If mediocre people are/were going into primary school teaching and being absolutely brilliant at it, then that might be justification for your conviction that it's easy.

And given your low opinion of teachers, your status as a fantastic parent who doesn't pressurise your son, and your ultimate overriding wish for him to feel that art and history of art enrich his life, why are you worrying about his colouring within the lines in the right colours on the say-so of a teacher?

Do you really tell him that his pictures are "brilliant"? Evidence suggests that steering clear of generic terms like "brilliant", "fantastic", "wonderful" and concentrating on specific comments like "You used some very bright colours" or "You've made very curvy lines" (whether or not prefixed by "I like the way that...") is far more motivational and encouraging in the long term. Saying something is "brilliant" when it isn't can be a switch-off. Your son isn't stupid; he knows that his pictures aren't technically as good as his classmates', but you're telling him how pleased you are when he draws "brilliant" pictures. So he gets concerned that if he can't produce brilliant work then you'll be disappointed, so he scales back on what he does.

well if it is rocket science then there are not many of them taking off i'm afraid judging by the growing levels of illiteracy, awful spelling and mathematical ability at age 11 and eventually filtering into the workplace. maybe we need to start shuffling the crew around in a big way!

as for this "evidence" i would be interested in knowing the source (if you don't mind providing it), in order to judge for myself whether it is worth the paper it is written on (i suspect not, if the majority of widely reported "evidence" is anything to go by (as well as the ever lower self-esteem among increasingly younger people that i have witnessed first-hand). i, for one, will carry on encouraging him however i think best; in the way naturally dictated by our close bond and loving relationship.

btw you don't develop such a bond by dumping your children with people who don't love them and buggering back of to work before they are old enough to understand what you are doing... so unless you have been a sahm from day one, spending a hell of a lot of quality time with your only child; reading and playing with them for as long as they like, taking them to wonderful places and regularly exposing them to as many amazing experiences as you could possibly dream up, then you are really not qualified to comment on my parenting.

ooh, it's all been relatively polite until now!
dons hard hat collects popcorn

"You used some very bright colours"
"Saying something is "brilliant"
since when were these mutually exclusive comments anyway?

I think I must be living on a different planet.

Priceless.

I cant find any words to respond to that

Good grief OP . I hope your mediocre friends don't read this. Take this thread over to AIBU.

Oh, and just in case that wasn't clear,YABU.

zebramummy
"btw you don't develop such a bond by dumping your children with people who don't love them and buggering back of to work before they are old enough to understand what you are doing... so unless you have been a sahm from day one, spending a hell of a lot of quality time with your only child; reading and playing with them for as long as they like, taking them to wonderful places and regularly exposing them to as many amazing experiences as you could possibly dream up, then you are really not qualified to comment on my parenting."

Well, I did all this and then I became a primary teacher so I would know what I was talking about!
Sorry but markmaking is just that, making marks. It is the precursor to emergent writing and requires gross and fine motor skills to be practised and refined. Perhaps you should be working on these rather than Art appreciation and History ( which I think he will get to for A level) Just pull your horns in, settle down, stop acting like some sort of drama queen and actually listen to the advice you have been given or you will be turning your child into a nervour wreck worrying whether he is ever going to be good enough to reach your exhalted standards

Oh dear, I think your son's biggest danger is of growing up with the arrogance and bloody mindedness of his mother. You've had plenty of good advice on here and in your last few posts you have slate half the mothers on here (WOHM and teachers).

You sound like you need to give your son a break, and yourself too. All this perfection must be wearing (I don't mean that sarcastically).

To OP - wouldn't you find it easier to HE? If all the teaching professionals you've encountered - your friends, your school, your ds's nursery - are all truly rubbish why bother to stay in the state education system?

This has been a fab thread to read. Worrying about a 4 yr old's artistic ability has made me cry with laughter.

OP.
You seen to have decided that anyone who disgrees with you is either a fool or is judging you from a position of ignorance.

For the sake of your boy can I ask you to take a deep breath and contemplate the notion that many ofthe people trying to encourage you to focus less on your childs performance and more on his happiness are doing so with the best of intentions.

There is actually some very good and measured advice in here should you choose to take it.
It is possible, just possible, that you could get some perspective and some useful advice from people on here with a different life experience.

( Pag is a SAHM, has been at home every minute with her DCS since giving up work 14 years ago, has studied behavioural techniques, developmental milestones etc etc and has three very happy children all doing well relative to their abilities. DS1 has 6A* and 3As at his GCSE and is aimimg for Oxbridge if he gets his expected 4 As at A Level. DS2 Still has svere SN but is doing really well and very happy and DD has a crush on Zac Ephron)

Takes the for pushiest parent ever.

OMG

Perhaps we should all do the same pag, just so the OP knows we are talking from experience, rather than bullshit!

primarymum. Stopped work ( middle management, civil service) as soon as knew I was pregnant. Child listened to classical music whilst in womb to accustom/develop intellect ( although did throw in some Queen and Heavy metal for light relief) Once born he was subjected to numerous intellectual and physical stimulating experiences, lived near London (so took regular vists to cultural and historical landmarks from a very early age (the National Portrait gallery was a particular favourite as he giggled incessantly at the paintings)) and round the corner from Ascot-regular exposure to high quality cultural and social activities. When joined by DS2, began broadening their horizons by visiting other countries. Expanded their multicultural understanding by living abroad for 2 years, including Caribbean and central America. Returned to London for second cultural and historical input. The concentrated on improving aesthetic appreciation by moving to Lake District ( excellent for landscape/naturalism) . Then decided to ensure I had the necessary expertise to further develop their skills and understanding, so trained as a primary teacher with early years specialism (also invaluable for ensuring I understood the difference between mark-making and artistic masterpieces) and have taught ever since. DS1 and DS2 seem to be coping fairly well with my mediocrity, eldest applying for university, youngest currently sitting GCSE's and on track for 9A*'s ( and possibly a couple of A's as well)

Do you think this is Ok or should I add a list of my qualification too?

Sorry, sarcasm and sense of humour failure becoming apparent

Riven and pagwtach you are disqaulified from commenting because you have more than one child.

Therefore you cannot possibly know what the OP is talking about or be as 'fabulous' a parent as she is.

Evidently.

I have two fairly average (but gorgeously adorable children) and work part time, so my opinion is worth shit BUT, OP do you think you are taking motherhood just a bit too seriouslly?

It must be very hard for a young child to have such an intense mother, who views everything as structured activities to devlop somehting or other and 'experinces' to improve or develop something else. Just let him be.

I have some experience of this when my son was 5ish and was upset at bathtime, so I sat in the bathroon chatting about how he can always talk to mummy, tell me how he feels, nothing is ever too bad to tell mummy etc etc etc, and finally asked him 'what can mummy do to help?' to which he answered 'stop talking.'

I think many of us in our enthusiasm to be good mothers inadvertently and without meaning to or realising it make the children feel some unspecified pressure.

Do you seem to be quite an extreme version of this.

Let him draw falcons-all will be OK.

(you were the one who was trying to start art activities by saying 'no falcons' as that's all he ever drew weren't you? if not ignore falcon commnet.)

was actually really enjoying this robust debate, especially tethersend;s really informative posts about art,until this little gem from the op

:
btw you don't develop such a bond by dumping your children with people who don't love them and buggering back of to work before they are old enough to understand what you are doing... so unless you have been a sahm from day one, spending a hell of a lot of quality time with your only child; reading and playing with them for as long as they like, taking them to wonderful places and regularly exposing them to as many amazing experiences as you could possibly dream up, then you are really not qualified to comment on my parenting."

I would politely suggest to zebramummy she enlarges her world view and stops thinking one way is the right way, manifested in her obsession with her child being good at art and all promary teachers beign crap and her assertion WOHM are evil

you and your son are going to come into contact with a lot of diverse people, and some of those will have had to work to keep a roof over their heads

best not to let on how superior you think you are, just in case you and your DS end up friendless.

have rarely read such a parochial and horrible statemtn on MN.

and I have been a WOHM and a SAHM. i also have a law degree and a pottery diploma, am also a doula and member of maternity services committee. so i hope my opinion counts for something

(FFS)

it must be my fault DS is dyselxic, it's because i dumped him in childcare at 6 months old so i could pay the bills

....and finally asked him 'what can mummy do to help?' to which he answered 'stop talking.'....

Baroness - that is brilliant!

DS1 has said to me more than once 'just relax mum - you are supposed to screw up the first one'

I have a life long disclaimer