ds is not good at art - now becoming noticeable - help!!

[zebramummy]

i need a strategy to improve ds' mark-making asap per his nursery report.

i never meant to compare him to his class mates at nursery but their pictures appear to resemble trees, people etc. ds is 4.4 but his art skills have actually gone backwards if anything. he only brought one picture home this term and nothing of his has ever been put up for display at nursery (yes, i do this at home before you ask)

i was apparently so good at his age that my nursery school teacher (a trained artist herself) predicted that i would also become an artist one day (i did not do this though remained quite good). i don't expect him to be that good; just able enough to colour the right bits of the picture in suitable colours and try to keep within outlines. his interest in writing has gone the same way too.

is there anything i can do to remedy the situation? so far, i have made available to him every medium under the sun to try out his 'ideas' - finger paints, glitter glue, crayons, chalks, all manner of paper and card.

he loves playdough though uses it more for imaginative play rather than for model-making. likes gloop, clay, helping with cooking but has had no cross-impact.

"I don't think there is a 'right or wrong' answer with language at all. I thought only maths had exacts?"

Of course there are right and wrong answers in language! There may not be just one correct answer, but there are right and, crucially, wrong answers, which I do not believe art has.

There are a finite number of ways to ask for an apple. Most (most!) of them contain the word 'apple'. I'm sure your encouragement of creativity in language in your children does not extend to them asking for a shoe when they mean an apple. Indeed, this may be something to be concerned about, rather than applauding their use of 'creativity'.

If your child observed an apple and went on to draw/sculpt/whatever a shoe as a response, this would not be classed as 'wrong'. Bizarre, possibly, but absolutely legitimate. In this way it differs from language.

"Talking is like painting, the receivers mind is the canvas"

Paint + canvas does not equate art. House painters are not necessarily artists; does the surface they paint on make them so?

I disagree. Your line of argument does not hold.

What about if your children were asked to draw circles - and they drew shoes - would that be correct?

What about poetry?- An adult/child needs to observe what an apple is (the same as in painting/sculpting whatever) and they could describe that apple in a poetic way - if they didn't use the word 'apple' is that wrong?

House painting could be art? If you are being true to the spirit of art -

You are comparing a very pared down version of what language is - with 'art'.

If you asked a class of children to describe an apple - you would get different answers. Which one is right or wrong? Aren't they all right?

If you got a class of children to draw an apple - likewise all their drawings would be different - but I don't think many of them would draw a shoe.

Don't you need to go to art college to learn to turn that particular trick? {grin}

OP you are coming across as slightly unhinged.

Why are you even thinking about'art' for 4yr olds? Particuarly in terms of attainment, it's all just play and experience.

Very sad that you now think he's 'turned a corner' as if he had a problem, and god forbid that he should just be engaing in 'crandom sribbling' -no, everything must be target driven, the target being working towards the kind of adult you wish him to be.

Instead, just try letting him be.

Sorry, but you sound like a nighmare, and your nursey sounds shite.

What is this 'spirit of art' you speak of?

daytoday, with your logic, there would be no need to teach children language at all. They can just make it up.

As I have stated, there are plenty of right 'answers' in language- even a whole classful . If you read my post, I said most, not all ways of asking for an apple include the word 'apple'.

Telling a class to draw 'a circle' is about verbal language, not art. You are using the verbal signifier of a circle to denote a shape, rather than placing something circular in front of the students. The work produced then becomes the signifier, the object the signified. So if a child were to draw a shoe, it would only be 'wrong' in terms of verbal communication- what if the child thought you said "shoe" by mistake?.

It's perfectly valid that the child responds to the object in front of him by drawing a shoe. Whilst, in the verbal context, this would be wrong, this does not negate its validity as art.

erm, in the far East it would be perfectly normal to stress over your 4yos artistic ability. and send them to supplemental lssons for it.

. yes i know mark-marking isn't = art, but if his works not going up, that suggests art too.

It's actually my favourite ever mnet OP

To tethersend, my dd did avoid all the stages.

Her people had bodies from when she started drawing people (at 2.5)

She has also always shown the sky going down to the ground. I hadn't realised how good she was until she started school and I saw everyone else's drawings.

This all sounds terribly boostful but I like drawing myself and so enjoy looking at her drawings. I reached a bit of a peak at 12 so it would be interesting to see how good she gets.

However, she enjoys drawing so much that this is all she does.

My dd2 is the opposite. At 2 she has only just decided not to draw on carpets/me/dd1/walls. You could say that she is into multimedia.

I love all the discussion on this thread...I would love to read research on children's drawing.

By PrematureEjoculation Tue 01-Dec-09 14:57:08
erm, in the far East it would be perfectly normal to stress over your 4yos artistic ability. and send them to supplemental lssons for it.

But we aren't in the far east

. yes i know mark-marking isn't = art, but if his works not going up, that suggests art too.

why? I display children's mark making on my reception class walls and none of it is art

Zebra - you are doing the right thing by making sure that he has access to paints etc, and letting him experiment and explore, but worrying about his performance or attainment is not going to help at all.

Some children just are not good at art - none of my dses is - but they do enjoy and appreciate art - we've taken them to plenty of art galleries and encouraged them to enjoy what they saw there - though ds3 did go through a phase of stopping dead at gallery doors and exclaiming in tones of deepest disgust, 'I Don't Want To Look At Any ART!!', and I have had to be a bit wily at times to get him to spend any time there so the rest of us get to look round.

Don't worry.

ProfLayton hit the nail on the head actually as have some of the other posters incl Stayingsunny.

Iknowitisshallow - (you said it!) maybe the debate has been completely lost on you (either that or you are more than "slightly unhinged" yourself). i do not know of many children that are given as much attention, love and freedom as ds. however, he attends STATE nursery which does follow EYFS targets and it would be ignorant of me to completely disregard everything they say about ds' abilities. by age 4 it is NOT "just play" in the sense it is at age 2; it is play with a definite purpose and there is nothing wrong with a gentle nudge in the right direction (i am sure you do it yourself wrt other areas of development if you were honest enough to admit it).

"but you sound like a nighmare, and your nursey sounds shite" - well not unlike your spelling then.

zebramummy - I don't know if you saw my post earlier - do be careful that you are not inadvertently missing developmental stages by encouraging the drawing in a certain direction. They NEED to scribble!

OP - haven't read all of this. I do understand what you mean about being your DS's advocate, and I think that some posters are being a bit harsh on you. In this case, that should mean having a quiet word to the nursery manager/head of room about putting your DS's work on display. Certainly both my DS's like seeing their stuff on the wall (even DS2 at 18mo always points out photographs of himself and claims authorship of random pieces of art - not necessarily done by him of course). It is wrong of the nursery to only put up the 'best' art, and gives the message that they value children based on ability (whatever 'ability' means for a 4yo)

If you want to encourage your DS with his drawing, how about doing something a bit crafty like making a robot, or making some potato prints. There are loads of ideas on the mister maker website, which being artistically 'challenged' myself I find very useful!

PS If you get to the Mister Maker page, don't bother with the train pencil holder made of a pringles box. It's simply impossible

OP, I don't think you sound unhinged at all.

But I do think you need to learn to accept that your ds is his own person. He may develop more slowly in a certain area but get very good in the end- or he may remain absolutely without talent or interest in something you love. At the same time, he may show unexpected talent or interest in an area that you had never thought of. It's his life. You don't get to decide what kind of person he is going to be- and EYFS don't get to do that either.

My highly musical and music-loving mother only had one child (out of 4) with a deep and genuine interest in music.

Having children is not just about initiating them into the things we love: it is equally about getting initiated into new worlds ourselves.

About the art development, it may be of some interest to see that several posters (including myself) mention that their artistically untalented children were drawing very neatly at an early age, while those of their children who appear to have talent were not necessarily very neat or very early at all.

And acebaby is spot on- have a word with the manager about how pictures are displayed' that should be this week's PR task.

zebramummy you need to talk to someone who does understand EYFS as clearly you are operating under a misconception ...

thanks cory - i will talk to her about the display of pictures.
tbh i am pretty much done with this thread (though i very much enjoyed the discussion between artists at one point).

i specifically asked for purely practical advice and guidance wrt a specific problem; not a critique of my parenting. i happen to think that i am a fantastic parent and i am very sure of my parenting having put in many, many hours of one-to-one quality time and fortunate enough to have a broad range of knowledge and experience spanning many disciplines; for the record,dh and ds happen to feel this way too so i find the negative personal comments casually thrown in my direction to be pretty worthless (only mildly annoying, really). i dread to think what effect they would have on a mother less sure of herself though.

mrz - there is no need to sound so precious about it. yes, i may not know that much about EYFS or what the flavour-of-the-month will be after it is replaced (or indeed what came before it). what i do know is that it is NOT rocket science (nor is primary school teaching either, really). i don't care if it offends anyone but among my peers, those who decided to become primary school teachers were pretty mediocre really (although i do accept that people changing careers after having children and those going through progs such as Teach First would be exceptions here). my own primary school teachers were also rubbish without exception really and the most useful thing they ever did was to make available copies of their syllabus so that we could get on with it by ourselves. i stand by what i said about being ds' main educator based on my own experience.

zebramummy I'm not being precious about anything. I think you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say (or even want to hear as you have already made up your own mind) but here goes nothing ...

There is nothing absolutely nothing about mark making in the creative development section of the EYFS profile I repeat NOTHING (it appears in the birth to 11 months DM of Creative Development in the EYFS curriculum )
but there are mark making targets for writing in the EYFS profile (and numerous references to mark making in the writing aspect of EYFS).

is it just possible you have misunderstood the target the teacher gave?

my goodness have been following this thread and the level of sneeriness at teachers by the op in her last post is so incredibly offensive.

Zebramummy it is quite evident you think you are a fantastic parent, and that in itself is a little disconerting, a level of self reflection and critque may be in order here I think?

some of the posts may be rather harsh, but there is a definite feel from many experienced mothers and teachers on this thread that your attitude to your very young son and his ability levels are a tad disturbing.

What you are vew as 'fantastic parenting' others are viewing as highly pressured unrealistic focusing on all the wrong things type parenting.

Who knows who is right but maybe just think about it???

i missed the tail end of the discussion, but i couldn't let zm's last post go.

how sad it must be to hand your son over to his teachers believing that they have little or nothing to offer him. how sad that you have such a level of contempt for the people who will influence him whether you like it or not.

here's hoping that influence tends towards a sense of perspective, he may need it.

I'm a teacher. Don't worry! Let your son be a child! What is expected of Nursery, Reception, Y1 and Y2 children in the UK is unrealistic and not based on any understanding of child learning and development. Unfortunately, many teachers are only really concerned about ticking enough boxes to pass performance management. Some teachers may know what they're expecting of children is wrong, but then they've got bills to pay. ALL governments in this country ignore the research and advice that says that children should follow the European system of formal education beginning at 7!

Zebramummy, I don't think there is anything wrong in seeing yourself as your child's main educator. I probably do the same, though I have the deepest respect for their teachers: it's just that I'm going to be around for longer than them, so am likely to be a more lasting influence.

What I have learnt over the years though is that my ability or right to influence what my children become is still limited. I can try to make them interested in the things I love and it's a great thing when it works. Dd and I spend hours discussing books and historical events and this is one of my greatest pleasures in life.

But I cannot make them talented if they are not, and I have to remain open to the fact that they may develop talents or deep interests which are not the same as mine. And then it is my duty to support them in that rather than trying to make them become what I was at their age.

My ds (9) is showing no interest at all in literature or learning languages, which was all I thought about at his age. I was top of my year, he is in the bottom sets, because that is who he is- essentially, he is not me. Instead, he has an interest and (I think) a talent for drawing, which is something I have never been interested in myself. So I can choose whether to be disappointed because he can't do what I can, or proud and delighted because he can do something I can't.

Imo my job as an educator is not to make him think that he should be like me, but to enable him to enjoy who he is.

At ds' age, I had relatively little interest in music which was my mother's greatest love and the thing she felt she had never been allowed to develop to her fullest potential. She wisely settled for some kind of halfway house: she let me do enough music to gain a general idea, but did not leave me with a feeling that I was expected to excell because she had. If she had pushed it more, I could have ended up hating music for life; instead, I can quite enjoy going to a concert, though I am not a performer. And I am not left with the feeling that I was not allowed to be myself as a child, because somebody else's ideas of who I should be got in the way.

I know this is not what you asked for: you wanted practical guidance on how you can make your ds develop quicker and be talented at art. And we cannot offer you that. We cannot even know if he has any talent. And we do know, from our own experience, that pushing a child to develop faster than he is, can be potentially damaging.

What you can do is make sure that art remains fun and non-pressurised for him. And if you want him to make the most of his time at school, then it would probably help if you could respect his teachers as people who are working for essentially the same goals as you- if he picks up on your negative attitude, he will not get much benefit from the time he spends in school.

I am far more educated than any teacher dcs have had to date: I have read more, I speak more languages, I could spend my time picking holes in what they do. Instead, I have come to recognise that through their daily experiences in the classroom, they have gained knowledge that I do not have. We complement each other, it works well. I respect the knowledge and experience they do have, and I hope they respect me and my children.

Wonderful post Cory. You are so right about not forcing or pressuring children to follow in their parents' footsteps. My DS1 (4yo) is not particularly interested in music, which is my 'thing'. Instead, he is fascinated by language and is constantly asking how to say things in different languages, and piece together how language works. He is now making up his own language, complete with made up and consistent grammar, vocab and punctuation. I have always being totally rubbish at languages, and dropped them at the first opportunity. DH is even worse!

DS2 (18mo) is a true extrovert, who craves constant social interaction and will try (with varying success) to connect with everyone he comes in contact with. DH, DS1 and I are, on the other hand, all quite introverted, and prefer to have just a few close friends.

Before I had children, I envisaged myself gaining the greatest pleasure from reading them my favorite books and introducing them to my favorite music. In actual fact, I get enormous satisfaction from seeing them develop into real people, who are nothing like me at all !

great post again cory - i can see exactly where you are coming from. i would never try to influence ds' likes and dislikes to that extent or turn him into a mini-me. indeed, ds is completely different to what i was like at his age.

i only wanted to make sure that i have left no stone unturned in affording him the opportunity to develop in these areas if he so wishes. i have never piled on the pressure even if i like to structure some of our activities. there are boys at ds' nursery who play football outside all day every day. they carry on doing this when they get home. i do not think that this amount of 'freedom to choose what they want to do' is right for a four year old who is about to start school. if i left ds to his own devices, he would probably do jigsaws and watch The Wizard of Oz all day; i do see it as my role to broaden his horizons a little.