ds is not good at art - now becoming noticeable - help!!

[zebramummy]

i need a strategy to improve ds' mark-making asap per his nursery report.

i never meant to compare him to his class mates at nursery but their pictures appear to resemble trees, people etc. ds is 4.4 but his art skills have actually gone backwards if anything. he only brought one picture home this term and nothing of his has ever been put up for display at nursery (yes, i do this at home before you ask)

i was apparently so good at his age that my nursery school teacher (a trained artist herself) predicted that i would also become an artist one day (i did not do this though remained quite good). i don't expect him to be that good; just able enough to colour the right bits of the picture in suitable colours and try to keep within outlines. his interest in writing has gone the same way too.

is there anything i can do to remedy the situation? so far, i have made available to him every medium under the sun to try out his 'ideas' - finger paints, glitter glue, crayons, chalks, all manner of paper and card.

he loves playdough though uses it more for imaginative play rather than for model-making. likes gloop, clay, helping with cooking but has had no cross-impact.

zebramummy Fri 27-Nov-09 21:56:05

"it does matter to me because art and history of art have always been really important to me and enriched my life and it would be good if he could share that or at least understand"

For this his ability to draw neat lines is a complete red herring.

He may never learn to do it and still go on to develop a real love of art. He may become professor of history of art for all we know, without being able to draw neat lines.

Or he may develop the physical control to do so at age 5 or age 6 or age 7.

Dd didn't learn to read anywhere near as early as most of her friends- she was still struggling at the end of reception. But now she has read most of the Victorians, has an encyplopedic knowledge of Shakespeare, and is somebody I can really enjoy a literary discussion with. They don't have to do it all when they're almost babies.

Ds was late in developing fine motor control, drawing neat lines, keeping within the circle. But at age 9, his drawings have a lot of life in them, you can really see the action and the emotions even if the lines are all over the place. Dd otoh is drawing beautifully neat- and completely lifeless pictures. I think I know which one of them is the artist.

Sorry, have I got this right? Your school nursery only puts up the 'good' pictures?

And you're buying into this? Feeling that you have to have a 'strategy to improve his mark making' because it says so on his report?

Not my idea of an outstanding school.

dh and I are both in the arts.
When ds1 was tiny, he could draw brilliantly. He drew people properly at 2, he was drawing with perspective at 2.5. I was all excited thinking I had an artist on my hands.
Then I had ds2 who is dyspraxic. He's never been able to draw, he can't colour in now and his handwriting is shocking.
Now they are 10 and 8, and yes ds1 can draw well, it's technically accurate. But my god it's boring, no emotion, nothing to say, whereas ds2's drawings are wonderful, full of expression, interest and observation.
Forget your ds's mark making, he's tiny. Give him the materials and then leave him to it. He has loads of time to develop artistic talent.

"to colour the right bits of the picture in suitable colours and try to keep within outlines"

I am a secondary art teacher, and spend a lot of time trying to 'unteach' this!

Please don't think that being good at art = drawing representative pictures, especially at 4!!!!!

You may find The anti-colouring book a useful tool in developing his imaginative skills, which are of far more value.

I would also try him with a cheap digital camera, clay and other 3D materials. Although not together

What you (and nursery) are trying to get him to do is hampering his artistic development. If this is important to you, please stop, and just let him have fun, praising his efforts. (and never draw on his work- not saying you do, just a personal bugbear )

It's very rare that nursery/primary teachers are art-trained, so often the targets they set in this area pertain to representative drawing skills, which are counter-productive IME.

thanks for the advice - I am sorry if i came over as a bit harsh towards ds - nothing could be further from the truth. occasionally, i just want to 'stretch' him a bit - take him out of his comfort zone so to speak. i could not do this wrt his interest in stories and numbers because he absolutely loves all that. art is probably a weaker area for him at the moment (i have taken on board the fact that he is young and that may change).

i do not blindly adhere to what the school prescribes but in this instance i agree with the school in that he might need a gentle push in the right direction. i do not agree with the fact that they only put the 'good' pictures on the wall but there is no way on earth that i could actually prove that they had done this; after all, they could then come back to me with some rubbish along the lines of: 'most children are better than ds at mark making activities.that's all'.

tethersend - thanks for the book rec - i am currently finding out more about it. i already have another book in the amazon bundle offer which is abs brilliant.

I think part of the problem is that nurseries and primary schools have to work to the specifications of the Early Years Foundation Stage curriculum, and having seen what that entails I feel some schools/nurseries are taking it too rigidly in what children are supposed to achieve at what times.

My ds is nearly 6 and his drawing leaves quite a bit to the imagination, BUT, he is still very enthusiastic about it, telling me what is going on. I'm not planning on interfering with that.

zebramummy mark making encompasses a whole lot more than being an artist... in the nursery context it is about the beginning of writing not becoming a great artist.
mark making matters

Once a little boy went to school.
He was quite a little boy
And it was quite a big school.
But when the little boy
Found that he could go to his room
By walking right in from the door outside
He was happy;
And the school did not seem
Quite so big anymore.

One morning
When the little boy had been in school awhile,
The teacher said:
"Today we are going to make a picture."
"Good!" thought the little boy.
He liked to make all kinds;
Lions and tigers,
Chickens and cows,
Trains and boats;
And he took out his box of crayons
And began to draw.

But the teacher said, "Wait!"
"It is not time to begin!"
And she waited until everyone looked ready.
"Now," said the teacher,
"We are going to make flowers."
"Good!" thought the little boy,
He liked to make beautiful ones
With his pink and orange and blue crayons.
But the teacher said "Wait!"
"And I will show you how."
And it was red, with a green stem.
"There," said the teacher,
"Now you may begin."

The little boy looked at his teacher's flower
Then he looked at his own flower.
He liked his flower better than the teacher's
But he did not say this.
He just turned his paper over,
And made a flower like the teacher's.
It was red, with a green stem.

On another day
When the little boy had opened
The door from the outside all by himself,
The teacher said:
"Today we are going to make something with clay."
"Good!" thought the little boy;
He liked clay.
He could make all kinds of things with clay:
Snakes and snowmen,
Elephants and mice,
Cars and trucks
And he began to pull and pinch
His ball of clay.

But the teacher said, "Wait!"
"It is not time to begin!"
And she waited until everyone looked ready.
"Now," said the teacher,
"We are going to make a dish."
"Good!" thought the little boy,
He liked to make dishes.
And he began to make some
That were all shapes and sizes.

But the teacher said "Wait!"
"And I will show you how."
And she showed everyone how to make
One deep dish.
"There," said the teacher,
"Now you may begin."

The little boy looked at the teacher's dish;
Then he looked at his own.
He liked his better than the teacher's
But he did not say this.
He just rolled his clay into a big ball again
And made a dish like the teacher's.
It was a deep dish.

And pretty soon
The little boy learned to wait,
And to watch
And to make things just like the teacher.
And pretty soon
He didn't make things of his own anymore.

Then it happened
That the little boy and his family
Moved to another house,
In another city,
And the little boy
Had to go to another school.
This school was even bigger
Than the other one.
And there was no door from the outside
Into his room.
He had to go up some big steps
And walk down a long hall
To get to his room.
And the very first day
He was there,
The teacher said:
"Today we are going to make a picture."
"Good!" thought the little boy.
And he waited for the teacher
To tell what to do.
But the teacher didn't say anything.
She just walked around the room.

When she came to the little boy
She asked, "Don't you want to make a picture?"
"Yes," said the lttle boy.
"What are we going to make?"
"I don't know until you make it," said the teacher.
"How shall I make it?" asked the little boy.
"Why, anyway you like," said the teacher.
"And any color?" asked the little boy.
"Any color," said the teacher.
"If everyone made the same picture,
And used the same colors,
How would I know who made what,
And which was which?"
"I don't know," said the little boy.
.And he began to make pink and orange and blue flowers.

He liked his new school,
Even if it didn't have a door
Right in from the outside!

Honestly? Change nurseries.

Or accept their report with thanks, stick it up on the wall, and chuck paint at it.

"it does matter to me because art and history of art have always been really important to me and enriched my life and it would be good if he could share that or at least understand it."

I feel your pain. 19 years ago when I had my daughter I had visions of us enjoying Shakespeare and poetry and history and stuff together. And living in a bright and colourful world with windchimes and crystals and all the things that I love.
She turned out a nerd who loves maths and computers, wears black and is allergic to anything older than 1991. She also has a minimalist lifestyle without junk, clutter or windchimes.
But I still quite like her, even if she had deviated from the plan somewhat.

thanks so much - the EYFS doc and poem were very interesting indeed - esp the case studies showing the evoltion of their mark making - if the examples are fairly representative of what is required i would say that ds has fallen behind and stopped showing interest. i am ashamed to say that i must have played a part in it rather than nursery as i recall one incident during the holidays when i told him off for throwing blue paint all over my new lawn (and that switched his enthusiasm off in an instant).

i think the way forward is to leave the materials out (rather than hiding them in a cupboard) and basically wait and see if i can recapture some of his interest.

i feel guilty as i now remember (and indeed own examples of) various bird pictures and even attempts at drawing people - he has regressed rather a lot since then.

can't change nurseries as too late in the day now (goes to school next year).

I think you're mad as a hatter.
He's at nusrsery for gods sake.
What will you be expecting of him when he gets to school?

I honestly don't think a 4 year old needs to be taken out of his comfort zone...

zabramummy, at 4.0 DS's drawing and painting was much as you describe. Every other child in his nursery class was producing pictures that looked at least vaguely like something but he was doing scribbles and splodges still. We didn't stress and agreed with nursery teachers that different children "get it" at different rates and there was no need to be concerned or do anything about it.

Within literally the space of two weeks he suddenly clicked, and a fortnight after we'd had a parents' evening where I'd been discussing his splodgy efforts with his keyworker he was producing eminently understandable and very detailed pictures.

OK, he was a couple of months younger than your DS, but the same principles apply.

If the nursery are concerned (and I think they are very seriously overreacting) then they could start by putting his stuff on display when he does produce it. DS's daubs were always up on the wall alongside his classmates' more accomplished pictures.

everyone's picture should be displayed - they love seeing their one, and showing it to parents.

if you want to do some fun arty stuff with 4 yo i don't see how that can hurt.

you say you have made materials available - but have you been showing him the mechanics of drawing (you know bird = two circles + beak, house is box & triangle..face is circle with eyes in the middle) can build confidence as it increases the chance the picture looks like something...

there are some good colouring-in materials on the Cbeebies website.. maybe glitter could be used to make it extra messy fun?

Although it may not be a huge concern for a kid not to be good at art, learning a few building-blocks (don't use too much paint, staying in the lines - listen to the instructions!!) can make their work much better and them ever so pleased with their little selves.

from what you say, its not the art so much as the confidence that has gone that is a concern.

do you think as someone who is very good at art, you find it hard to imagine not knowing the how of drawing?

for generating inteest in letter-writing..i suggest letter kung-fu (that is, make the shap of the letter in the air with your hands whilst howling the sound e! or a!) went down a storm with my kindis (reminisces)

although i agree free use of materials is great, there's nothing wrong with a lttle guidance - the best artist in my kindi class was the one who took the learned mechanisms (he'd talk through his drawing...do one square..now one circle ...ah so cool...)and his own creativity to draw amazing things...there are also kids who just aren't creative who like producing a nice neat picture and are disappointed if it is messy and doesn't look like anything (whatever their parent says). nothing wrong in that.

the world, after all, needs some accountants.

Lol at 'outstanding' school putting only 'good' work on walls!

Actually that's not funny it's ridiculous.

The only reason his work is not on the wall should be because he's never produced any. And that's his choice during child-led activities. If all the children are producing artwork during adult-led activities and his are not on the wall because they are 'not good enough' then this is not the school for you.

Their only concerns should be if he is not mark-making because he has difficulty holding a pen/pencil/brush etc. That is a target to work on not colouring in suitable colours and keeping within the lines

does it matter ? Art is self expression be it good or bad in others' eyes.

Mark-making is the general term used to describe young children's early recorded communications through marks, drawings and writing using a wide variety of materials to record their thoughts, feelings and ideas. It isn't about being an artist!!!

Where did the idea of colouring in come from was it your's or the keyworker's?

"you say you have made materials available - but have you been showing him the mechanics of drawing (you know bird = two circles + beak, house is box & triangle..face is circle with eyes in the middle) can build confidence as it increases the chance the picture looks like something..."

Sorry premature, but this is singularly the most damaging thing you can do to anyone's drawing skills, let alone their creativity!

A face is not a circle with eyes in the middle! It's a face! Drawing skills are honed through observation; what is wrong with looking at a face and drawing what you see?

Have a look at this book by Betty Edwards, she goes into much more detail about the left brain/right brain conflict that 'rote learning to draw' as you suggest, creates.

Sorry to jump on your post, wasn't meant to be an attack; I just strongly disagree with your suggestion!

Have a read of this:

The Little Boy
by Helen E. Buckley

Once a little boy went to school.
He was quite a little boy
And it was quite a big school.

One morning,
When the little boy had been in school a while
The teacher said:
"Today we are going to make a picture"
"Good" thought the little boy,
He liked to make pictures.
He could make all kinds;
Lions and tigers,
Chickens and cows,
Trains and boats.
And he took out his box of crayons
And he began to draw.

But the teacher said: "Wait
It is not time to begin"
And she waited until everyone looked ready.

"Now" said the teacher,
"We are going to make flowers"
"Good" thought the little boy,
He liked to make flowers.
And he began to make beautiful ones
With his pink and orange and blue crayons.

But the teacher said "Wait,
And I will show you how."
And she drew a flower on the board.
It was red, with a green stem.
"There," said the teacher
"Now you may begin."

The little boy looked at the teacher's flower,
Then he looked at his own flower.
He liked his flower better than the teacher's.
But he did not say this.
He just turned his paper over
And made a flower like the teacher's.
It was red with a green stem.

On another day
The teacher said,
"Today we are going to make something with clay."
"Good" thought the little boy,
He liked clay.
He could make all kinds of things with clay:
Snakes and snowmen,
Elephants and mice,
Cars and trucks -
And he began to pull and pinch
His ball of clay.

But the teacher said
"Wait, it is not time to begin"
And she waited until everyone looked ready.
"Now," said the teacher,
"We are going to make a dish"
"Good," thought the boy,
"He liked to make dishes,
And he began to make some
That were all shapes and sizes.

But the teacher said
"Wait and I will show you how"
And she showed everyone how to make one deep dish.
"There," said the teacher,
"Now you may begin."

The little boy looked at the teacher's dish.
Then he looked at his own dish.
He liked his better than the teacher's.
But he did not say this.
He just rolled his clay into a big ball again,
And made a dish like the teacher's.
It was a deep dish.
And pretty soon
The little boy learned to wait,
And to watch,
And to make things just like the teacher.

And pretty soon
He didn't make things of his own any more.

OK, sorry mrz - just seen you had already posted it! - Not sure how I missed that.

Think I found it originally on one of your postings on another forum maybe (msz)!

my son who will be 5 in February is also uninterested in art right now.
he used to love it, but now he is into other stuff, as are a lot of the boys in his peer group.

why don't you just let him be?

I think there is danger too in always saying his pictures are "brilliant" or wanting them up on walls etc, because it can then make children worry about producing pictures in case they aren't good enough.

so just back off. make the stuff available if he wants to use it, but stop trying ot make him do it, stop trying to make him do it your way, and stop over-praising him!

When my dd was at nursery she couldnt do art, she couldnt draw, paint, make anything with playdough, the nursery picked up on it and mentioned it to me at her parents meeting but told me not to worry, when she started primary one her art improved and now shes in primary 2 shes one of the best in the class.

On the other hand ds, who is still at nursery is bloody good at art but refuses to do it,

prem - thanks. he does love glitter glue already - along with play dough it is one of the few media he is still willing to explore (though will tend to use rather a lot of glitter so works out quite expensive per go. i have tried the 'two circles for eyes' approach - he does remember this and can reel it off but does not actually apply it to the picture. i have only tried this appraoch a few times with him as i find it vv hard work. i saw that they have recently brought out all manner of books for this age group covering this approach for everything from cars to animals; i would be amazed to see how many parents get value for money out of them. i could not even be bothered with them at my age let alone..!

thisis- yes i could try backing off a little bit, worth a go.

thanks clayre and scattercat - encouraging

zebramummy & PrematureEjoculation
his keyworker has suggested he needs help with mark making NOT art!!!!